Is it unfair to expect another truly great U2 album?

[coolian2]

Some of the best pop songs in history, not off Pop.

 

[ozeeko]

That's because they're not.

What I'd like to know is for all the beating the 00's lyrics take, where was that when Bono came up with Some days are betters... on Zooropa or Miami or when Numb took the place of something like HMTMKMKM on Zooropa (far worse offenses than anything he wrote in the last decade because it's much worse in comparison to the rest of those albums - and he was way better on AB and Zooropa already in comparison to Pop), or the complete filler that is Is that all ?
When stuff worthy of Shakespeare like "miami my mammy" or "boom cha!" made it no problem or well thought-out lyrics like Elvis Presley and Elvis ate America made the cut ?
Drop the double standards already.

It's true that writing about love (romantic, parental, faith etc) is cliche-hazardous and/or cheesy but hello "I kissed your lips and broke your heart" - despite the topic of that song that's pretty much THE cliche love line. Well, it's either that or "all I want is you" (I don't care what you promise me).

You're taking a lot of Bono's lyrics out of context.

When he says "BOOM CHA" at the tail end of "Discotecque", he isn't aiming for a Shakespearean poetic moment. When he says "BOOM CHA", it's more onomotopeia than an actual lyric. It's like when you hear "Come on" in a song. Sure, it may be technically part of the lyrics, but it's not really...if anything it's just something tacked on to keep the energy pumping. And it suits the funky disco vibe perfectly, plus it's a song about indulging yourself in something that you know is plastic and throwaway, so I'd say the "BOOM CHAs" are totally appropriate.

Now, using the "BOOM CHA" in a serious song like "Gone" or "Bad" would be obnoxious and wrong. But in a song entitled "Discoteque", it makes sense.

Miami's a novelty song with lyrics alluding to drugs and oral sex. I wouldn't get too wrapped up in the "My Mammy" line. It's throwaway, just like the song. It's an anything goes number. If he said "My Mammy" in "Sunday Bloody Sunday"...actually I don't even wanna think about that.

Now it's really unfair to pick on NUMB, since it's purposely driven by one lyrical theme...Don't this, Don't that, Don't don't don't....etc. Think of The Edge's voice as a percussion instrument, get into the groove, the rhythm of the words. Don't analyze it, because when you read lyrics like "Don't piss in the drain" and "Have another grape", the smarter part of you should realize that the author is being intentionally silly.

Elvis Presley And America was an improvisation. I wouldn't focus on what Bono's actually saying. Pretend he's singing in a different language that you don't understand. I have found it's easier to appreciate it that way.

Some Days Are Better Than Others...come on, come on COME ON! Don't be picking on the little guy! Those are great "throwaway" lyrics. "Some days you can't stand the sight of a puppy". It's a pop song. Enjoy it!

NOW...for lyrics that were meant to be deep that failed or that tried to sound throwaway and instead ended up sounding corny...

"Freedom has a scent, like the top of a new born baby's head" - when you're writing a stadium sized anthem that's meant to be profound, try to come up with lyrics people will actually want to sing along to.

"Uno, dos, tres, catorce"..."Turn it up loud, Captain"..."they twinkle as the boys play rock and roll"..."gimme what i want and no one gets hurt"...and finally "yea yea yea yea yea yea yea yea YEA". All of that crap in one song? This was supposed to be U2's comeback balls to the wall all-out rock monster! You don't count 1.....2.....3.....14 in Spanish (it's so much dumber when you translate it to English), you don't tell the Captain to raise the volume when it's already too fucking loud (and who is this Captain anyway? and who made him a Captain? Why is he a Captain? I thought Captains steered boats) You see, it's not even 15 seconds into the song and I'm already pissed. Twinkle? TWINKLE? You don't fucking say twinkle in a rock song. You just don't!!! It's a weak, effeminite word. "Yea, yea yea yea yea yea yea" does it get any more cliched than that? This is U2 trying to convince us they're rocking, they're having a good time. Well I'm glad they're having fun, but I find this song to be the emotional equivalent to walking in on your parents singing "Ms. New Booty" at a young persons' Kareoke Bar. It's embarrassing. Traumatic. And you won't admit they're your parents, just like I couldn't admit U2 were my favorite band the first time I heard Vertigo.

Follow up this loaded, headbanging, literally throwaway "rock" song with a deep introspective anthem about AIDS, Cerebral Pallsy and freedom-scented babyheads, and you're off on one scary adventure.

 

[the tourist]

"Uno, dos, tres, catorce"..."Turn it up loud, Captain"..."they twinkle as the boys play rock and roll"..."gimme what i want and no one gets hurt"...and finally "yea yea yea yea yea yea yea yea YEA". All of that crap in one song? This was supposed to be U2's comeback balls to the wall all-out rock monster! You don't count 1.....2.....3.....14 in Spanish (it's so much dumber when you translate it to English), you don't tell the Captain to raise the volume when it's already too fucking loud (and who is this Captain anyway? and who made him a Captain? Why is he a Captain? I thought Captains steered boats) You see, it's not even 15 seconds into the song and I'm already pissed. Twinkle? TWINKLE? You don't fucking say twinkle in a rock song. You just don't!!! It's a weak, effeminite word. "Yea, yea yea yea yea yea yea" does it get any more cliched than that? This is U2 trying to convince us they're rocking, they're having a good time. Well I'm glad they're having fun, but I find this song to be the emotional equivalent to walking in on your parents singing "Ms. New Booty" at a young persons' Kareoke Bar. It's embarrassing. Traumatic. And you won't admit they're your parents, just like I couldn't admit U2 were my favorite band the first time I heard Vertigo.

Funny. Maybe it's an age difference, but I was proud to call U2 my favourite band when Vertigo came out as it was a huge smash-hit. And everyone loved it. Who can think of the Boston Red Sox winning the World Series in 2004 and not get a nostalgic smile thinking about the U2 iPod commercial playing Vertigo?

And twinkle is talking about stars--what the hell else are you gonna say they do? Flicker? Sounds like someone trying to smoke but needing a cigarette lighter with more butane. Sparkle? Now we sound like it's about a 6 year old girl who's just named her brand spanking new My Little Pony. No. I think Twinkle is perfect for the context. But apparently Bono is wrong and you are right.

I'm sorry for you if you're embarrassed of your favourite band so much that you can't even call them your favourite band anymore.

As for Vertigo being throwaway, it's about as throwaway as Discotheque. People make fun of "yeah yeah yeah" but defend "boom cha" to the death. As though there's a fucking difference??!

And then for Miracle Drug and the "freedom has a scent like the top of a newborn baby's head" line--Bono's had kids recently. Don't parents think their kids are the greatest thing in the world when their kids are young? Maybe that's Bono's thinking.

I'm sick and tired of people picking on his lyrics.

 

[roy]

So basically it was fine for U2 to get away with 'cliched' 'throwaway' 'intentionally silly' 'novelty' songs in the 90's but not in the 00's.

 

[Cigar]

which is worst :

"Yeah! Yeah! Yeah! Yeah!".....or "The air is heavy,heavy as a truck...."


that's not even close....

 

[last unicorn]

I'm sick and tired of people picking on his lyrics.

Totally agree.

What most fans don't seem to realize is that Bono - like any other person - has changed and matured in his thoughts and feelings ... he writes differently today and about different things. I wish fans would embrace and appreciate that more, instead of always bitching about how bad the lyrics are today, compared to the "good old times"

I, for my part, and being a writer myself, must say I am glad that I don't write the way I wrote 10 or 15 years ago, because I have changed. I wouldn't want to be stuck in a phase forever. I have always believed Bono to be very open and sincere in his writing, and I simply don't see him writing the same things today as he wrote 20 years ago.

And I also find it annoying that Bono is always getting the most flack when it comes to a "U2 today vs. 80s" discussion.

Whatever U2 are deciding to do next is fine for me. I'm thankful that they are still around as a band, making music, and I'm really excited about whatever may come our way.

 

[Cigar]

May i remind you that even Bono's good friend Salman Rushdie said in Bill's Flanagan book that Bono's songwriting isn't that great.

And that's was during the Zootv tour when he made that comment,So way before the the '00 era.and How many time Bono said in many interviews that all he sees in the 80' songwriting is just unfinished lyrics?

 

[RademR]

My biggest issue with 00's U2 is the inconsistency within the songs themselves. Most of the songs from the last 2 albums have something about them that I love but also parts that make me cringe. The problem is that these good and bad part co-exist withing the same songs! It is very frustrating listening to a song that would be great if not for...*insert complaint here*. And more often than not, the complaint is a lyrical one. What happened Bono? Like the example that Earnie Shavers just mentioned about LaPoE. Could have been great but ruined by lyrics. I could mention a dozen more.

It makes me sad.

I agree. Songs like "Miracle Drug" are really good, but there's something that keeps them from being great. Certain parts I'm kind of like "what???"

Love and Peace or else, musically, is great. The lyrics are HORRIBLE, so cliche and bad.

They still have great music in them; they need to just let go and make music; they seem so into being popular now. They always have, but now it's extra.

From the experiments in Morrocco, looks like they are on the right track. We'll see....

 

[65980]

I will never understand this forum's hatred of Atomic Bomb, easily the best rock album since... since Achtung Baby. It's a totally brilliant work which staggered me in its ambition and energy, and completely surpassed my expectations for a band that had been going for nearly 30 years.

And yet that's not good enough for you all!

Oh, and the lyrics on The Bomb are fantastic -- esp. the line about the baby's head. That's great. (I could do without the 'turn it up, captain' or whatever he said, but no biggie.)

 

[65980]

One more: if this were late 1986, you all would be on this forum (if there were such a thing then) bitching about U2, and asking, "Do you think they have it in them to make another great album?"

 

[Peterrrrr]

Real good songs from:

80's

Pride
UF
ASOH
Bad
WOWY
Hawkmoon 269
One Tree Hill(Live)
RTSS
MOTD
Wild Irish Rose
WOS
WTSHNN
AIWIY
GP2
AATW(yes, it is a cover)

90's
Night And Day(yes, it is a cover...)
One
Acrobat
UTEOTW
WGRYWH
TTTYAATW
UV
Acrobat
LIB
Lemon
Stay
TFT
Discotheque
Please

00's
TGBHF
BD
Walk On
Kite
WILATW
Electrical Storm
Vertigo
SYCMIOYO
OOTS
Yahweh
Xanax And Wine
OSC
Mercy

 

[U2girl]

You're taking a lot of Bono's lyrics out of context.

When he says "BOOM CHA" at the tail end of "Discotecque", he isn't aiming for a Shakespearean poetic moment. When he says "BOOM CHA", it's more onomotopeia than an actual lyric. It's like when you hear "Come on" in a song. Sure, it may be technically part of the lyrics, but it's not really...if anything it's just something tacked on to keep the energy pumping. And it suits the funky disco vibe perfectly, plus it's a song about indulging yourself in something that you know is plastic and throwaway, so I'd say the "BOOM CHAs" are totally appropriate.

Now, using the "BOOM CHA" in a serious song like "Gone" or "Bad" would be obnoxious and wrong. But in a song entitled "Discoteque", it makes sense.

Miami's a novelty song with lyrics alluding to drugs and oral sex. I wouldn't get too wrapped up in the "My Mammy" line. It's throwaway, just like the song. It's an anything goes number. If he said "My Mammy" in "Sunday Bloody Sunday"...actually I don't even wanna think about that.

Now it's really unfair to pick on NUMB, since it's purposely driven by one lyrical theme...Don't this, Don't that, Don't don't don't....etc. Think of The Edge's voice as a percussion instrument, get into the groove, the rhythm of the words. Don't analyze it, because when you read lyrics like "Don't piss in the drain" and "Have another grape", the smarter part of you should realize that the author is being intentionally silly.

Elvis Presley And America was an improvisation. I wouldn't focus on what Bono's actually saying. Pretend he's singing in a different language that you don't understand. I have found it's easier to appreciate it that way.

Some Days Are Better Than Others...come on, come on COME ON! Don't be picking on the little guy! Those are great "throwaway" lyrics. "Some days you can't stand the sight of a puppy". It's a pop song. Enjoy it!

NOW...for lyrics that were meant to be deep that failed or that tried to sound throwaway and instead ended up sounding corny...

"Freedom has a scent, like the top of a new born baby's head" - when you're writing a stadium sized anthem that's meant to be profound, try to come up with lyrics people will actually want to sing along to.

"Uno, dos, tres, catorce"..."Turn it up loud, Captain"..."they twinkle as the boys play rock and roll"..."gimme what i want and no one gets hurt"...and finally "yea yea yea yea yea yea yea yea YEA". All of that crap in one song? This was supposed to be U2's comeback balls to the wall all-out rock monster! You don't count 1.....2.....3.....14 in Spanish (it's so much dumber when you translate it to English), you don't tell the Captain to raise the volume when it's already too fucking loud (and who is this Captain anyway? and who made him a Captain? Why is he a Captain? I thought Captains steered boats) You see, it's not even 15 seconds into the song and I'm already pissed. Twinkle? TWINKLE? You don't fucking say twinkle in a rock song. You just don't!!! It's a weak, effeminite word. "Yea, yea yea yea yea yea yea" does it get any more cliched than that? This is U2 trying to convince us they're rocking, they're having a good time. Well I'm glad they're having fun, but I find this song to be the emotional equivalent to walking in on your parents singing "Ms. New Booty" at a young persons' Kareoke Bar. It's embarrassing. Traumatic. And you won't admit they're your parents, just like I couldn't admit U2 were my favorite band the first time I heard Vertigo.

Follow up this loaded, headbanging, literally throwaway "rock" song with a deep introspective anthem about AIDS, Cerebral Pallsy and freedom-scented babyheads, and you're off on one scary adventure.

Exactly what do you think all the present lyric haters are doing ?

Vertigo (or Elevation) isn't exactly a deep song (enjoy the pop song!!! right back at ya), hence the lyrics work unlike stupid and pointless boom chas in a song with a stronger meaning or pursuit of the overall theme like Discotheque (or Numb). And personally I think Discotheque/BD/Elevation are ALL about U2 trying to be hip.
And sometimes the "anything goes" doesn't apply. Not with songs that are NOT throwaway material.

Miami, and Some days are just bad overall (I actually shouldn't limit it to the my mammy line). He gets away with that on the album ? Pffft. Elvis P and America and Numb bother me because Bono could write some decent and finished lyrics instead (actually, let's go back to the days when he wrote all the lyrics on their albums).

As was stated elsewhere in this forum, it's very hard to write about motherly love AND not come off cheesy. But, I submit to you the same "freedom" line as performed in Levitate. Exact same line, except it works better, due to better delivery, which can save - or destroy - lines. Sometimes I think the fans act like Bono is Springsteen or Dylan, he's not.

 

[shaun vox]

please dont compare the mediocre Bomb album to the worlds greatest album Achtung Baby.
this i Achtung Baby.(cool,sexy,emotional,religious,beautiful,soulful,love,hate etc)

and this is Bomb.(lets just say that the chipmunks album has better songs)

 

[Rob33]

please dont compare the mediocre Bomb album to the worlds greatest album Achtung Baby.
this i Achtung Baby.(cool,sexy,emotional,religious,beautiful,soulful,love,hate etc)

and this is Bomb.(lets just say that the chipmunks album has better songs)

you couldn't write better songs if your life depended on it, and i'd rather listen to Bomb than most of that other stuff (not sure what you call it) ....why do some of you always have to compare? It gets so old......

 

[shaun vox]

oh please.

 

[ludvic]

oh please.

 

[Hibbyface]

As for Vertigo being throwaway, it's about as throwaway as Discotheque. People make fun of "yeah yeah yeah" but defend "boom cha" to the death. As though there's a fucking difference??!

Exactly

The double standards on this site is shocking.

 

[schnumi]

Sad indeed. Vertigo is a great rocker, just like i love to play All because of you and last night on earth or elevation.

The 00 U2 is still very very good, i also love ATYCLB and HTDAAB. Not as much as POP or AB but many here treat them like they are trash.

 

[ozeeko]

Exactly what do you think all the present lyric haters are doing ?

Vertigo (or Elevation) isn't exactly a deep song (enjoy the pop song!!! right back at ya), hence the lyrics work unlike stupid and pointless boom chas in a song with a stronger meaning or pursuit of the overall theme like Discotheque (or Numb). And personally I think Discotheque/BD/Elevation are ALL about U2 trying to be hip.
And sometimes the "anything goes" doesn't apply. Not with songs that are NOT throwaway material.

Miami, and Some days are just bad overall (I actually shouldn't limit it to the my mammy line). He gets away with that on the album ? Pffft. Elvis P and America and Numb bother me because Bono could write some decent and finished lyrics instead (actually, let's go back to the days when he wrote all the lyrics on their albums).

As was stated elsewhere in this forum, it's very hard to write about motherly love AND not come off cheesy. But, I submit to you the same "freedom" line as performed in Levitate. Exact same line, except it works better, due to better delivery, which can save - or destroy - lines. Sometimes I think the fans act like Bono is Springsteen or Dylan, he's not.

If Vertigo was some latin-flavored pop song, intentionally silly and full of summer fun, then maybe an "uno, dos, tres, catorce" would have worked. In Vertigo it does not work, it just sounds stupid and juvenile. That's Bono's biggest problem these days, his sheer lack of judgement. And "yea yea yea yea yea yea yea yea yea yea yea yea yea yea yea yea" is in my opinion U2's lowest moment on any of their records. It's not that he used the word "yea", it's that he used it 17 times (diece-siete), and he screams the word the exact same way over and over, the same rhythm the same volume, in a nagging emopunk style, so any attempt at sounding carefree, young, rocking, spontaneous, throwaway, whatever, ends up sounding more like a burntout out-of-touch-with-reality rock star who is trying to sound hip. I wonder how many takes of "yea yea yea yea yea yea yea yea yea yea yea" were recorded before settling on the one they used. Vertigo is rife with flaws, I find it to be one of the weakest songs, if not the weakest, they have ever written, made even worse by the fact that this was supposed to be U2's big rocking fuck-all comeback (as if they ever went away) song. I'm sorry, but "Uno, dos, tres, catorce", "twinkle", "hello hello ....hola" is the wrong way to go about kicking in the door and announcing your arrival. Put this song next to "Desire", and you'll see how immature and juvenile it really is. People like to think Bono has matured in his old age. Maybe he has, but his lyrics haven't. How can anyone point the finger at "Numb" or "Discoteque" or even "Beautiful Day" and accuse U2 of trying to stay hip, when their clearest example of self-consciousness and second-guessing is right here in VERTIGO.

 

[Hibbyface]

And "yea yea yea yea yea yea yea yea yea yea yea yea yea yea yea yea" is in my opinion U2's lowest moment on any of their records. It's not that he used the word "yea", it's that he used it 17 times (diece-siete), and he screams the word the exact same way over and over, the same rhythm the same volume, in a nagging emopunk style,

Bloody hell, is it really 17 times? I never thought of it that way before.

Brilliant stuff.

 

[RademR]

Exactly

The double standards on this site is shocking.

never got what was wrong with the "yeah yeah yeah" at the end of Vertigo....he said it at the end of the song, it's not like it's in the chorus.

 

[the tourist]

never got what was wrong with the "yeah yeah yeah" at the end of Vertigo....he said it at the end of the song, it's not like it's in the chorus.

And even if it was, how about "She loves you yeah, yeah, yeah!" That's the chorus to one of the biggest hits of a single of all time.

 

[Zoots]

And even if it was, how about "She loves you yeah, yeah, yeah!" That's the chorus to one of the biggest hits of a single of all time.

The word yeah was not cliche back then. It is cliche in 2004.

 

[the tourist]

Cliche enough to make it a huge success.

 

[ozeeko]

And even if it was, how about "She loves you yeah, yeah, yeah!" That's the chorus to one of the biggest hits of a single of all time.

We're all missing the point here, it's not the word "yea", that is the problem, it's the way it's used and where it is used that is the problem.

She Loves You yea yea yea is a killer chorus and melody. Plus it sounds like it belongs there. It works.

To me, 17 yeas tacked on to the end of Vertigo, all the same volume, same pitch, same note, sung the same way, robotically, sounds fucking lame as all hell. They wanted a strong finish, so they overdubbed 17 yeas...and calculated yeas at that, there's no passion or soul behind those yeas. It's U2 trying to persuade us to be excited, rather than exciting us in the first place with a killer song. Maybe if Bono limited it to 4 yeas instead of 17, or said something else....or maybe if they just scrapped Vertigo altogether...

The yeas in Vertigo are just one flaw out of many in that song.

 

[the tourist]

all the same volume, same pitch, same note, sung the same way, robotically, sounds fucking lame as all hell.

See, now you're just talking about Numb, too.

 

[ozeeko]

See, now you're just talking about Numb, too.

But that was the point of that song, genius. It's about being numb. As in, no feeling, no emotion, deadpan.

 

[the tourist]

But that was the point of that song, genius. It's about being numb. As in, no feeling, no emotion, deadpan.

I know what Numb is about, sport. Doesn't change the fact that the delivery is exactly the same as 10 seconds of the end of Vertigo.

As for "boom-cha," how exactly does that fit in with the idea of a dance club? And chewing bubblegum for crying out loud?

 

[Bono's shades]

I remember when I first heard Vertigo I got up and started dancing around the room because I was so excited.

Eventually I became so sick of it I thought I would be perfectly happy to never hear it again.

The song is like cotton candy. The first taste is delicious, but after too much of it you get a toothache and a queasy feeling in your stomach.

 

[coolian2]

You're taking a lot of Bono's lyrics out of context.

When he says "BOOM CHA" at the tail end of "Discotecque", he isn't aiming for a Shakespearean poetic moment. When he says "BOOM CHA", it's more onomotopeia than an actual lyric. It's like when you hear "Come on" in a song. Sure, it may be technically part of the lyrics, but it's not really...if anything it's just something tacked on to keep the energy pumping. And it suits the funky disco vibe perfectly, plus it's a song about indulging yourself in something that you know is plastic and throwaway, so I'd say the "BOOM CHAs" are totally appropriate.

Now, using the "BOOM CHA" in a serious song like "Gone" or "Bad" would be obnoxious and wrong. But in a song entitled "Discoteque", it makes sense.

Miami's a novelty song with lyrics alluding to drugs and oral sex. I wouldn't get too wrapped up in the "My Mammy" line. It's throwaway, just like the song. It's an anything goes number. If he said "My Mammy" in "Sunday Bloody Sunday"...actually I don't even wanna think about that.

Now it's really unfair to pick on NUMB, since it's purposely driven by one lyrical theme...Don't this, Don't that, Don't don't don't....etc. Think of The Edge's voice as a percussion instrument, get into the groove, the rhythm of the words. Don't analyze it, because when you read lyrics like "Don't piss in the drain" and "Have another grape", the smarter part of you should realize that the author is being intentionally silly.

Elvis Presley And America was an improvisation. I wouldn't focus on what Bono's actually saying. Pretend he's singing in a different language that you don't understand. I have found it's easier to appreciate it that way.

Some Days Are Better Than Others...come on, come on COME ON! Don't be picking on the little guy! Those are great "throwaway" lyrics. "Some days you can't stand the sight of a puppy". It's a pop song. Enjoy it!

NOW...for lyrics that were meant to be deep that failed or that tried to sound throwaway and instead ended up sounding corny...

"Freedom has a scent, like the top of a new born baby's head" - when you're writing a stadium sized anthem that's meant to be profound, try to come up with lyrics people will actually want to sing along to.

"Uno, dos, tres, catorce"..."Turn it up loud, Captain"..."they twinkle as the boys play rock and roll"..."gimme what i want and no one gets hurt"...and finally "yea yea yea yea yea yea yea yea YEA". All of that crap in one song? This was supposed to be U2's comeback balls to the wall all-out rock monster! You don't count 1.....2.....3.....14 in Spanish (it's so much dumber when you translate it to English), you don't tell the Captain to raise the volume when it's already too fucking loud (and who is this Captain anyway? and who made him a Captain? Why is he a Captain? I thought Captains steered boats) You see, it's not even 15 seconds into the song and I'm already pissed. Twinkle? TWINKLE? You don't fucking say twinkle in a rock song. You just don't!!! It's a weak, effeminite word. "Yea, yea yea yea yea yea yea" does it get any more cliched than that? This is U2 trying to convince us they're rocking, they're having a good time. Well I'm glad they're having fun, but I find this song to be the emotional equivalent to walking in on your parents singing "Ms. New Booty" at a young persons' Kareoke Bar. It's embarrassing. Traumatic. And you won't admit they're your parents, just like I couldn't admit U2 were my favorite band the first time I heard Vertigo.

Follow up this loaded, headbanging, literally throwaway "rock" song with a deep introspective anthem about AIDS, Cerebral Pallsy and freedom-scented babyheads, and you're off on one scary adventure.

What an unintentionally funny post. As Roy said, apparently Bono can get away with cheesy lyrics in the '90s but not the '00s.

If you were going to employ such ridiculous double standards, don't do it in the same post.