I'm Wondering If The Joshua Tree Might Not Be U2's Best Album...

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Michael Griffiths

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...RIGHT NOW (FOR ME), at least. It's kind of funny, because I've always believed it to be, but now I'm having some doubts. I guess it all totally depends on what's going on in your life at the time, because right now I'd almost say Achtung Baby is better, by a nose, but for totally different reasons. Achtung Baby is much more in your face rock 'n roll, with heavy experimentation in industrial, edgier sounds. It's almost like industrial pop, if there ever was such a thing. Songs like 'Acrobat' are what rock music should be about: music that grabs you, because it's got you by the throat. Achtung Baby has the squeeze on tight, pretty much all the way through, and Edge has never sounded as bold, nor as confident. While listening to the guitar solo on 'The Fly', it's hard to believe you're listening to the same guitar player as the one from Joshua Tree, although you can definitlely see how and why he is.

Joshua Tree, however, has something that Achtung Baby doesn't: an eternal sound, a sound that resonates the idea of heaven, possibly even heaven itself. Achtung Baby has a sound that resonates earth. It's much more dirty, but that's what makes it so good. It's pop music with more than just an edge. It also happens to have, in my opinion, U2's best song, "One" (definitely Bono's finest moment as a songwriter -- he certainly didn't have to use the John Lennon handbook on this one, rest assured. One actually wonders if John was in the room at the time). However, the Joshua Tree will always be the album with the most "great" songs on it. It is very organic, and Bono's voice is so much inside the ebb and flow of the music. You'll never hear Bono ache as profoundly as he does on a song like "Mothers of The Disappeared," ("See their teaaaaarsss.....in the rain fall") for example. The imagery on this record is weaved so densley, it's almost like watching a movie. Your are trasported to a physical place, but it's almost in a mystical sense. It's an amazing record, really, because the songs that were the most successful commercially, happen to also be the most creative. That's a rare feat unto itself.

So, on second thought, since they're both so good, and so different to each other, I really can't pick. It's a draw. (Sorry for the ramble.)

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The Tempest

[This message has been edited by Michael Griffiths (edited 12-18-2001).]

[This message has been edited by Michael Griffiths (edited 12-18-2001).]
 
I can never pick a fave U2 album...it all depends on my mood and my current situation in life.

Personal preference for me though is ATYCLB. U2 truly is like a fine wine.

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"I don't know you,
But you don't know the half of it..."
 
While I love the Joshua Tree as much as any of you - I think that Achtung Baby is their best yet!
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Love don't need to find a way
You find your own way
I forget that I can't stay
And so I say that
All roads lead to where you are
All roads lead to where you are
 
Hey Michael, good stuff. Funny you should post this as I just finished listening to the Joshua Tree. I myself have never been a believer that the Joshua Tree is their best album. It is a fantastic album and it's remained a classic album, but their best? I suppose when it comes right down to it it's a matter of opinion but... I believe the Joshua Tree was their best album at it's time. It was phenomenal and coming off the Unforgettable Fire it was so different, so new, so really very rock'n'roll. Not a bit of the punk band from the early 80's resonated. So in that sense, it was incredible and still is, not too mention a solid album with serious tracks. Each one holding its own and powerful enough to be a single. But then enter Achtung Baby, and I have to agree with you on the comparison, because I truly believe it to be their best. It did what the Joshua Tree did in the 80's but in the 90's. It was once again new U2, different from anything prior to it. However, lyrically and musically Achtung Baby just reigns over the Joshua Tree in my opinion, though both still being unbelievable albums. Achtung Baby was more daring, more original and truly art at its finest. There is so much pain, love and soul in that album. I can't really say enough about Achtung Baby. It is to me magical.

In my dream I was drowning my sorrows
But my sorrows, they learned to swim
Surrounding me, going down on me
Spilling over the brim
Waves of regret and waves of joy
I reached out for the one I tried to destroy
You...you said you'd wait
'til the end of the world...


Just had to add that in. Some of the best lyrics I have ever read.


[This message has been edited by Angel (edited 12-18-2001).]
 
Originally posted by ultraviolet353:
To be honest I think it is a photo finish bewteen AB, JT, ATYCLB, POP in that order.

That's a very funny line.("a photo finish...in that order.") Cute.
smile.gif


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The Tempest

[This message has been edited by Michael Griffiths (edited 12-18-2001).]
 
Originally posted by Angel:
Hey Michael, good stuff. Funny you should post this as I just finished listening to the Joshua Tree. I myself have never been a believer that the Joshua Tree is their best album. It is a fantastic album and it's remained a classic album, but their best? I suppose when it comes right down to it it's a matter of opinion but... I believe the Joshua Tree was their best album at it's time. It was phenomenal and coming off the Unforgettable Fire it was so different, so new, so really very rock'n'roll. Not a bit of the punk band from the early 80's resonated. So in that sense, it was incredible and still is, not too mention a solid album with serious tracks. Each one holding its own and powerful enough to be a single. But then enter Achtung Baby, and I have to agree with you on the comparison, because I truly believe it to be their best. It did what the Joshua Tree did in the 80's but in the 90's. It was once again new U2, different from anything prior to it. However, lyrically and musically Achtung Baby just reigns over the Joshua Tree in my opinion, though both still being unbelievable albums. Achtung Baby was more daring, more original and truly art at its finest. There is so much pain, love and soul in that album. I can't really say enough about Achtung Baby. It is to me magical.

In my dream I was drowning my sorrows
But my sorrows, they learned to swim
Surrounding me, going down on me
Spilling over the brim
Waves of regret and waves of joy
I reached out for the one I tried to destroy
You...you said you'd wait
'til the end of the world...


Just had to add that in. Some of the best lyrics I have ever read.


[This message has been edited by Angel (edited 12-18-2001).]
Angel,

I think lyrically and musically, Joshua Tree is just as brilliant, but it's painting in totally different colours, and the canvas isn't the same. Not even the same fabric. The painter isn't even the same, in some senses (if you really want to get philisophical about it!). But in all seriousness, I think the lyrics in Achtung Baby are amazing because, among other things, they're smart, whereas in Joshua Tree the lyrics stand out because they're transcendant, (which is not to say there aren't elements of both on each album, just moreso of each one on each album). Joshua Tree transcends time and space, whereas Achtung Baby works inside of that framework (time and space) in order to give its results. Obviously Joshua Tree does, too (logic dictates), but gives you the illusion that it doesn't, and sometimes it's the very illusion of something that can become real. Who is to say that it isn't real? It becomes an excorcise in finding the last dot inside of two mirrors. (Okay, this is getting way too deep...). Anyway, for me, I would say that an eternalism through transcendence, does more for me than "smart". Now, please know, I believe Achtung Baby has amazing lyrics, and not just in the "smart" sense. Joshua Tree happens to have more of something undefinable, though. (And you thought Bono could be pretentious?
wink.gif
)



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The Tempest
 
did I tell you that Until the End of the World + The Fly are great fucking songs?

both albums are perfect, I love different things about each one, they are difficult to compare head-to-head (sort of like comparing Wayne Gretzky and Mario Lemieux, eh Michael?)
 
It is a very tough question Mike G., but I think that the albums are a completely different beast for this reason

The Joshua really seems to be about "BIG" ideas with large landscape sounds. The vastness of America definately has an impression on all of the tracks. Streets, Mothers, Bullet, even WOWY really paint a vivid picture. The album for the most part is very much focused on that idea as opposed to a personal album about "self"

Achtung is the album focused on personal feelings about relationships and love; as opposed to the ideas in Joshua. Do I think Achtung is a better album?.....I don't know but it was certainly the most important album they had to make. Someone wrote that it depends on the mood your in and I agree. That is what makes U2 the best ever in that they have so many different colors. I personally love the albums that seem to be more personal in nature because you know that everyone in there life has been screwed over in a relationship......some people might not get the "idea" of what the song means because the lyrics and the ideas are kind of big and OUT there. But I like the mystery sometimes of "a song"

rambling will now cease..but your question or statement of "Is JT the best album?" the answer is no.......but the best thing about U2 is that you could make a case for several of their albums to get that label.
 
Like people mentioned, JT and AB come from 2 different places and they're both amazing in their own ways.

But what bothers me about them is that JT seems blown up at certain moments, you know, sounding so majestic on purpose, almost too big for its own good. (Red hill town or I still haven't found..., for example)

On the other hand, AB has very tight songs, yet clearly "One" is way above the rest. Sonically it's probably my favorite, but there should be more stand out songs. Also, it is audible how U2 were about setting sonic standards with that one - the music gets your attention first, then the lyrics.

I don't know. I don't think that JT should be "the" U2 album. My favorite is ATYCLB - among other reasons, because for the first time, U2 sounds really relaxed as a band. It really doesn't feel like it's one of the biggest bands in the world playing.




[This message has been edited by U2girl (edited 12-19-2001).]
 
The fact that we can even debate over which masterpiece is better, is even further proof of U2's greatness.

I would add ATYCLB into the mix as well. It is starting to last to pass the test of time and like both AB and JT, there is much more to the album below the surface.

All 3 albums have spirits and ghosts whispering through them - in the background...don't laugh
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Listen on a great car stereo to Beautiful Day, With or Without You, or Wild Horses - you will hear things that seem to appear from other dimensions...so many layers...

Anyway - they are masters of the craft. They love blowing our minds and they keep us begging for more...

Nice thread there Michael. And great insight!
 
When it comes to AB and JT, it's a bit of a hard decision to make. I love JT's feeling of ethereal beauty, and I also love the edginess and energy of AB. I prefer JT musically, but lyrically, AB is Bono's best work. They both have a pretty much equal ratio of great songs, good songs and songs I don't care about. The only clear advantage of JT that I can think of right now is the opening track, because personally, I find "Zoo Station" to be the dullest opener of any U2 album. And I wouldn't describe AB's sounds as "more original": it was original in terms of its shocking contrast to U2's previous music, but it wasn't the first album to mix rock guitars, hip-hop beats, fuzzy electronic sounds and so on.

I still think that, whether it's fair or not, JT will be remembered as the ultimate U2 album, at the very least because it was the album that made them superstars. Whereas no matter how great AB is (and on some days I do believe that it is better than JT), it is more often referred to as U2's admirable effort at re-invention rather than an album with a true iconic status that JT seems to have.
 
Originally posted by Michael Griffiths:
Songs like 'Acrobat' are what rock music should be about: music that grabs you, because it's got you by the throat.

That's a great way of putting it. And I think that's ultimately why I will always rank Achtung Baby above Joshua Tree. I LOVE The Joshua Tree. It's beautiful, ethereal and magical. And I think at the time it was released, it was as sonically unique as Achtung Baby was when it came out. But there's something about the darkness of Achtung that I find incredibly compelling. Because it appeals to my "dark side", for lack of a better term, it touches me on a level that Joshua Tree cannot. It doesn't gently woo me; it grabs me by the throat. But, then, this is all an analysis of why *I* like Achtung Baby better, not why it is a better album than The Joshua Tree. I don't think that's a question that anyone can answer for anyone else. But it's fun to try
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"I buy socks."
-Adam, when asked what he does with the money he would have spent on drink.

"I looked like a baked bean when I was a kid. I really did."
-Bono

"Today we're going to do something healthy," he announces in his curiously posh drawl, unfolding his deckchair and removing his T-shirt.
"We're going to watch other people exercise."
-Adam

"I am not taking my clothes off!"
-Larry, when asked at the end of the interview to give the
crowd could take home with them
 
Well i'd say that Joshua Tree will be the album that U2 are remembered by in 50 years (unless they put out a more successful and brilliant record), but Acthung Baby is the best because it continually jsut keeps coming on with brilliant songs....for example....the more I listen to AB, the more songs I like- originally i only like 7 of the sogns I believe, now I love 11 of them (the odd one out is Zoo station)....and it's a pity that Zoo station kind of sticks out in my opinion as the poor bit of the album.
Anyway, i don't really know what I'm talking about, except that i seriously think that AB is No.1 then JT then POP then ATYCLB.
For some unknown reason I put POP jsut ahead of ATYCLB.
WHYWHY
 
Something about JT just sticks out in the way it feels. I used to think it had some sort of naive optimism that pulled you in, but I'm not so sure anymore. I think they used a level of cynicism on JT, but to most outsiders, it doesn't appear that way. WOWY and BTBS are harsh, probably just as harsh as anything on AB. Meanwhile, that sense of hopelessness is found in RTSS and Exit. There is a sort of heavenly feel to the album, I agree. Something I can't quite put my finger on, but it makes the album feel like it rises above all the other music out there. It's definitely the album I recommend to people who know nothing about U2, if only for the simple reason that its the most accessible.

AB is dark, I sgree. But I think that, more than anything, only the sound is darker than JT. Lyrically, the albums are much closer than most people seem to realize. Everyone talks about AB being such a huge leap into a different direction, but I only hear that musically. In other respects, there is still that sense of yearning, loss, and hopelessness on both albums. Then, almost from nowhere at the end of each album, you feel a renewed optimism, while still being vigilant in your pursuits.

For me, JT still has that feeling that can't stop when I hear it. The feeling that the world is screwed up, but can be righted. AB has it too, but on a more personal, introverted level. I think if you're more of a relationship-type person, you may prefer AB. For those of us who enjoy more of a level of open freedom, JT might fit better. That's the reason I pick JT, with AB in a "photo finish" (stealing uv353's term) right behind.

Excellent topic. The JT-AB debate will never end. And, of course, there are those who also pick ATYCLB, or even War. To each his or her own.

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Change is the only constant
 
Really great comments everyone. I was talking to a friend about these two albums, and (one of) the conclusions we came to is that Joshua Tree is more of a "U2 perspective" album, wheras in Achtung Baby, it become personal to the point where the listener becomes the character(s). I suppose by definition of the subject matter, Achtung Baby automatically envelopes the listener as a part of the record. Joshua Tree pretty much takes you along, but it's the journey of U2 and the characters within the album, that the listener experiences. Of course, this is not to say that there are no personal songs on Joshua Tree. Far from it. I just mean there is less involvement from a personal, emotional perspective (of the listener). However, in my opinion, the ride Joshua Tree brings you on is just as compelling, in a different sense, as the ride Achtung Baby takes you through.

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The Tempest

[This message has been edited by Michael Griffiths (edited 12-20-2001).]

[This message has been edited by Michael Griffiths (edited 12-20-2001).]
 
I think JT will always be the greatest to the public as a whole. I think that while the songs I love on JT are awesome, AB might be slightly more a total album, since I don't like the last two songs on JT and I like everything on AB. I would put ATYCLB and UF next in greatness then War.

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I have to stop reading this thread, as it brings me physical pain when people say bad things about JT!

AB - Moves my soul.
ATYCLB - Elevates my soul.
The Joshua Tree - Saved my soul.
 
I agree EPand America,

I don't understand why people slag Joshua Tree so much. It's almost become "trendy" I think. Also, I don't see why people think that just because it "bores" *them*, it is, therefore, not a good album. People put so much objective weight to such a subjective thing. One's own opinion on something doesn't define whatever that thing is, universally. Just doesn't work that way.

It seems a lot of people tend to stereotype anyone who likes Joshua Tree a lot. Suddenly these people who like it also hate everything ever recorded in the 90s. It's as though you can't like Achtung Baby, Zooropa or Pop, because, oh, if he's a Joshua Tree lover, then he must also be an '80s U2 fan who hates everything from the '90s. Where's the logic in that? People tend to box everything into decades for some reason. Was there a line drawn somewhere in the metaphorical sands of time that I forgot to witness? Very odd indeed...(sorry for the rant!)

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Skinny the Link

[This message has been edited by The Slow Loris (edited 12-20-2001).]
 
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