Exactly what happened?

[Utoo]

[Mojo] Because Pop failed, U2 went back to something they knew would work - ergo, All That You Can't Leave Behind and the earthier textures of ...Atomic Bomb. Fair?
[Larry] "(Sigh, 34 seconds of furrowed brow silence) First of all, I don't think we're bright enough to be that calculating."
Oh, come on.
"No, no. We don't work like that. Having said that, there was a sense that Pop was us experimenting beyond our means. A certain amount of panic set in. Where should we be as a band? What is it that makes U2 'U2'? And I said, What makes U2 'U2' is the idea of four people working in a room. We haven't done that for a while - maybe we should look at that again. The Greatest Hits was being talked about, so we'd started listening to some of the old records. And it was like, Y'know what? There was something going on there, listen! So it was more to do with the essence of U2. If U2 move into the future, I would like to think we will experiment again, because we're gonna have to. This is great, the four band members, stripped down and whatever, but there's more out there for us. I don't think the experimentation is over. You can only get to ...Atomic Bomb after you've done Pop. You only get there because of that. And that's what's interesting about the journey.

Great find, PM!

See, I read this as that the change was less a commercial "we need to make what our audience wants to hear" decision, and more of a personal choice by the band to go back and have fun again. The experimentation was fun for a while, but it'd run its course. Like Larry says in that article, sure, they may very well go back to experimenting---and I certainly expect them to do that. But after having done it for a whole decade, and after looking back on 20 years of music, they just wanted to have fun again--go back to the reasons why they chose to be in a band when they were teenagers.

And that's why Bono has said repeatedly that with HTDAAB, U2 feel like they've made their first album again. When it comes right down to it, I really do think it's as simple as that.

 

[U2DMfan]

"You can only get to ...Atomic Bomb after you've done Pop. You only get there because of that. And that's what's interesting about the journey."

I like the sentiment and as just an observer and listener, I'd agree. I don't think ATYCLB or HTDAAB makes sense creatively following The Joshua Tree or Rattle and Hum.

The question is, when U2 go back into the studio and start down a path less traveled, will they panic again for fear of another "Pop" mistake, or even a Chris Thomas/Bomb mistake.
I am hoping they fight through that fear, whatever it is and let it all hang out on the next record.

 

[thrillme]

Well I happen to officially be the last person in all of Interference to read the 'Bono: Conversations' book, I picked it up for $10 on the weekend. After logging off from this discussion last night I got into bed, opened the book and the very next series of questions and answers were pretty much, in the context of the recording of Achtung Baby, on what is their 'true selves'. Bono flat out points out the differences within the band on what they believe that is, and it is exactly the same as the divisions in this forum, which I think is kinda funny, or at least interesting. He talks about he and the Edge wanting that "Cut down the Joshua Tree" thing, while he says Larry and Adam wanted to build a glass house around The Joshua Tree and only play to what they knew already.

He says he and The Edge clashed with Larry and Adam because, and this is worth the bold because approximately 50% of Interference probably agree 100% with this statement; ""We believed that it is not the sound of the guitar, the collision of notes that made up a melody, or a particular bass and drum approach that made up U2. We believed that what made U2 was the spark, and you can destroy all the outside manifestations of that and the spark will still be there."

The discussion has veered along way off in different directions, but that quote jumped out at me so I thought I'd throw it in here because you know, in the end, this forum splits exactly the same way the band does. I think Bono's 100% correct about the above. I'm firmly in Bono and Edge's camp on what U2 is, what they should be etc. We all know Larry has won the day at the moment, even by blackmail almost. Won it too the point where I think they have swung so far that there are only very little signs of that spark.

The spark, as I see it, is the same as the 'God walking through the room' that Bono loves to quote. I also think that it can't be built, that it has to arrive on its own. It's in there, in the need for more hits, in the need for slicker production, that I think they took it too far and lost the spark, and its the spark and only the spark that shows where the honesty is. That is where we differ because some of you agree with Larry and Adam so still see 'U2' in these songs, but some of us agree with Bono and the Edge and can't hear it this time around (I think it is there on about half of the tracks on ATYCLB, missing on half, and is on none of the tracks from the Bomb).....

Anyway, back to the regular discussion.

Didn't Bono also say Larry and Adam had a sense of "dignity" about U2.

Kinda funny if that's the case, because, I don't know if you or anyone else has ever looked into what bands/artists the U2 themselves are into, but just by some of the ones I've read about them saying they like; I knew more of the bands Bono and Edge liked, than the ones Adam and Larry liked.

Adam likes some really "out there" stuff. And he said Pop is based on his musical style, and well some of his best bass lines are on Pop.

Larry I think is a closet headbanger, but that's my own pet theory.

 

[roy]

We all know Larry has won the day at the moment, even by blackmail almost. Won it too the point where I think they have swung so far that there are only very little signs of that spark.

Earnie, interesting posts as always.

Bono openly stated that the Larry and Adam were correct in their assertion that some of the songs on HTDAAB needed re-worked and was glad that he had listened to them. I don't know where you get the idea of blackmail from, unless you are privy to information the rest of us do not have?

 

[Earnie Shavers]

Earnie, interesting posts as always.

Bono openly stated that the Larry and Adam were correct in their assertion that some of the songs on HTDAAB needed re-worked and was glad that he had listened to them. I don't know where you get the idea of blackmail from, unless you are privy to information the rest of us do not have?

There's a story that's been often quoted in here, and it's been so long I can't remember where it came from, that says that Larry essentially listened to what they had done at some point and said that he wouldn't take those songs on the road. That he needed 'hits' before he would go on the road - and so a rework of HTDAAB was done. Not blackmail as such, as his opinion is obviously as important and legitimate as Bono's or anyones, but you get my point I guess...

I'm not trying to suggest that there's some grumpy Bono out there, secretly pissed off with the album they released, wishing that it were different. Of course he genuinely loves it, or he would have pulled the same move Larry did.

That quote just jumped out, because I agree with it, and because it falls exactly in line with what I feel U2's true selves are: It's not at all tagged to any one period of time, or sound, or image, or anything. It's not the 80's chimey guitars, and it's not the 90's rumble of Mofo. It's both. It's what is at the core and people seem to miss that point when they rail on about U2 'returning' to their true selves after leaving the 90's behind. It's flat out bullshit.

 

[U2DMfan]

Bono openly stated that the Larry and Adam were correct in their assertion that some of the songs on HTDAAB needed re-worked and was glad that he had listened to them.

What else is he going to say? "we compromised and this is the album that we all agreed on even if Edge and I gave in more than the others". Or something to that effect? He's going to go in head first, I'd assume.

I think salesman Bono is going to hype up any record the band make ever, including POP which was supposedly not even finished. I think he HAS to believe in it 100% or else he's not going to be able to make it work.

I'm not saying he doesnt love the album, but they spent a lot of time on quite a bit of music that they left off the album. After all, Bono had to be convinced the other one wasn't good enough.

I can empathize with the bands problem, appeasing all members of the band and management. It's hard for me to just take Bono's word that he finally "saw the error of his and Edge's way". when really it was likely a basic compromise. I think there was a disconnection between what they did at the time and what they ended up wanting to do "collectively".

I don't imagine Larry sitting around on his hands for a year as they recorded an album with Chris Thomas and waking up one day proclaiming it wasn't good enough. I think the process was probably contested all along and what Earnie refers to as blackmail is the idea that all Larry had to do was say "I am not touring to support this album" and he would have forced the others hand. Which, IMO< is probably exactly what he did.
Larry has wrist and back problems, I think for him to commit to the tour and album promotion is a biiger deal to him then maybe the others. I think his vote was weighted pretty heavily.

Adam and McGuiness may have made similar demands. Bono and Edge had to have beleived in that music, you just have to assume that all that effort wasn't just to end up at a road that they didn't beleive in. I think they believed in it and personally I think they were right in their first impression. Bono and Edge write most of it anyways, as far as I can speculate, they probably thought they were done with a great album. Further, to appease th eothers, I am sure they just compromised and made it work for all of them. Bono saying "they were right" is his eternal optimism and salesmanship, not that he doesn't believe it, it's his confidence.

 

[Earnie Shavers]

Agreed, and remember that Bono is absolutely bursting with public confidence and bravado in all of these songs long before they are twisted and turned into something else. We know the names of so many working titles because Bono has crapped on about how great they are at some point.

He may very well be genuinely 100% happy with the finished product, but the difference is, he was also 100% happy with an earlier product, and Larry at least wasn't.

 

[U2girl]

There was no blackmail on anyone's side, and if you will recall Larry said "It isn't good enough" in October 2003 - kind of a tough thing to say to the singer and guitar player of the world's biggest band (he also stated he felt sorry for Edge, as he had worked hard on the album). He did NOT say he's not touring the album. Apart from that, Adam also said he felt they needed more hit songs to get new fans in (as opposed to only Beautiful day on ATYCLB).

"Bastards were right." Remember? Bono and Edge agreed with that, it was a mutual decision to keep recording.
And here's another Bono quote on Bomb "This is the first U2 album everyone in the band likes." Guess that makes it a crap album.

Not only that, the first thing Lillywhite said when he came on board in April 2004 was "you don't have enough songs."

Enough of the "it's all Larry's fault" hype.

 

[U2girl]

maybe you mean since 2000. Overall, U2 has probably 10 songs that charted higher than Beautiful Day in America. Discotheque being one of them, HMTMKMKM another. Not to mention all the JT songs (2 hit #1 in America), Desire hit #3 and so on. Achtung's singles did real well. If I had by Whitburn book I could give you all of the poistions but I don't know where it is. It's a billboard book with all the chart stuff in it.

Also, since 2000, Vertigo is the second biggest single, not Stuck.

Although Stuck may be next, I am not positive, really none of the other 6 singles did well at all here.

I don't think it's a big deal, U2 could make the best songs of their career and still see little singles chart success in America.

Yes, I was talking about the year 2000 alone.

 

[Earnie Shavers]

You never actually read what anyone writes, do you? Just skim for the bits that on the surface get you annoyed...

 

[roy]

Agreed, and remember that Bono is absolutely bursting with public confidence and bravado in all of these songs long before they are twisted and turned into something else. We know the names of so many working titles because Bono has crapped on about how great they are at some point.

He may very well be genuinely 100% happy with the finished product, but the difference is, he was also 100% happy with an earlier product, and Larry at least wasn't.

I remember Bono hyping up the initial sessions as you would expect him to do. But as those early sessions with Chris Thomas wore on there is evidence of Bono himself not being happy with the results. An example of this were the sessions in London which involved an orchestra. Bono himself came out and publicly stated that the results of these sessions were very poor. Lillywhite is also on record as saying that Bono wasn't happy with Native Son, he didn't truely believe in the song, and wanted it reworked.

All in all I don't think Bono was as happy with the earlier reuslts as you make out.

 

[U2girl]

Get the actual "I won't tour on this album" quote and prove the rest of the band automatically freaked out and that no one else had second thoughts on Bomb prior that.
If not, quit assuming.

Exactly, Roy. Did we forget Bono and Edge re-wrote Native Son to fit the new chords for Vertigo, according to Lillywhite, and the band's opinion on the orchestra session in London and the work with Chris Thomas?
I guess that's all Larry too.

 

[RocknRollKitty]

On quotes, and their 'true selves', I saved an article from 2001, it was on my old computer that died, I will try to find it again. In this interview, Bono described how he originally rejected Edge's BD riff saying it sounded 'too much like The Edge', 'too much like U2' to which Edge replied, 'but I AM The Edge, and we ARE U2, what's wrong with that?'

Bono realized he was right, and they stopped running from being themselves and doing what they do best.

 

[babyman]

what has happened?
It's very simple: Brian Eno and Daniel Lanois came back...............

 

[U2DMfan]

Get the actual "I won't tour on this album" quote and prove the rest of the band automatically freaked out and that no one else had second thoughts on Bomb prior that.
If not, quit assuming.

Exactly, Roy. Did we forget Bono and Edge re-wrote Native Son to fit the new chords for Vertigo, according to Lillywhite, and the band's opinion on the orchestra session in London and the work with Chris Thomas?
I guess that's all Larry too.

They aren't going to publicize that kind of ultimatum, are you kidding? Speculation based upon reading between the lines, nobody is saying it's all Larry's fault, we are saying Larry represents part of the big change Quite evident, IMO.

The idea is, not that they didn't have second thoughts, they probably had second thoughts about both Joshua and Achtung as well anything else, the question was why did they complete the sessions, the album and still not beleive in it?

They did, but "they" obviously doesn't mean "all 4 + Paul".
Teh speculation is drawing together those lines, as interested fans, that's what is being done here. You read it as an offense to your "fandom" or somthing. Nobody said the things you infer.

I am preparing for Conan tonight, having some bourbon and cokes, I don't care to get in a big argument for this momentus occassion. But if I remember, I'll return back Friday with some quotes and a more thought-out presentation.

U2girl, you may not beleive it, but I really like you and appreciate your opinions. I just think you need to allow for criticism when it's fair. Often times, it seems as if you never think it's fair.

 

[U2girl]

"There's a story that's been often quoted in here, and it's been so long I can't remember where it came from, that says that Larry essentially listened to what they had done at some point and said that he wouldn't take those songs on the road."

That's only the second time I've ever seen this suggestion in this forum, personally. I'm just saying I'd love to see the actual quote and the context. All I have seen is him saying "it's not good enough". (and if saying "I'm not touring this album if it doesn't have more hits" isn't blackmail...) The only one talking about more hits, from what I've seen, was Adam.

What I mind is the wide-spread theory in this forum that "Larry stopped Bomb in Oct 2003 and bullied everyone else into changing the album", despite Adam's opposition, despite Lillyhite's comments and despite the reported opinion of the band of their recording with Thomas. All of that helps answer the "why did they keep on recording" question.

I think the biggest part of the change lies in Edge being comfortable to sound like, well, Edge.

There is a difference between critisism and the constant anti U2-post 2000 propaganda (with a biased opinion and twisted perception) - . declaring opinion as fact doesn't help either, nor does putting down those who like the last two tours and albums and anyone who dares say anything other than blind worship of some of their 90's output.
That is offensive.

 

[U2FanPeter]

<<Panic Button>>

I agree completely, but...

To all those who reiterate that U2 have repated themselves this decade: Since the lads last stopped touring, Superbowl Feb 2002, what new musical trends that have come to fore are worth U2 replying to?

In many ways, u2 is only competing with themselves.

u2fp

 

[MrPryck2U]

What the fuck does Panic Button mean? What kind of panic could their be from 4 men in their mid 40's who have become enormously wealthy over the last 25 years.

 

[U2FanPeter]

<<what's Panic Button>>

In 92/3 and 97 U2 did 2 of the biggest tours of all time, and did so without any corporate sponsoship.

In 2000 U2 & their management decided to go into bed with Clear Channel. Why would they need sponsorship for a tour with 1/6th the resources of their past tours?

Some tour stops in 97 did 1/4th the business they did 5 years earlier.

That defines u2's Panic Button.

u2fp

 

[MrPryck2U]

That's not panic. That's called good business sense. Even though those tours enjoyed tremendous success, U2 didn't make much money from them because of costly overhead. I don't agree with them joining up with Clear Channel, but now they can finance their tour and actually receive a profit. One could almost say that the Zoo TV and PopMart tours were just an expensive gift to their fans.

 

[U2FanPeter]

<<make a profit>>

The group were paid $100m upfront for Popmart. Any 'profit' above that would go to Micheal Cohl etc.


<<Costly Overhead>>

Show me the $ numbers from ZOOTV. They had slim margins for the 2 indoor legs of the tour(excluding merch) They would have done very well on all the Outdoor legs. Why else would they book a 2 year tour after a couple months 'costly overhead'?

u2fp

 

[U2girl]

Doesn't Clear Channel control vast majority of venues in US ?

 

[Axver]

<<make a profit>>

The group were paid $100m upfront for Popmart. Any 'profit' above that would go to Micheal Cohl etc.

And Popmart made $101 million so Michael Cohl and Co. took home a cool million for themselves.

 

[MrPryck2U]

An example of costly overhead: The big fuckin lemon!

 

[Zoomerang96]

clear channel owns 7ust about everything north america.

venue's, radio stations, you name it. it's disgusting. they make ticketmaster look like a "ma and pop's" outfit.

 

[MrPryck2U]

What is 7ust?