Debate: Is it (HTDAAB) the third masterpiece?

[bonosleftone]

It's hard to base it off of mp3s but I'm going to try.

I think it's pretty much universal that U2's two "masterworks" are JT and AB, even if it isnt your opinion I think its safe to assume that its most. However, I do not think that HTDAAB falls into that pantheon.

Don't get me wrong. I LOVE the album. I seriously believe it is the best album in about 5 years. I don't believe though that 10 years from now it will be regarded as a landmark or masterwork as the aforementioned are.

If you look at TJT that album came out at a time when popular music for the most part was stagnant. All the innovation and creative work was coming out of the "indie" scene at the time. The Smiths were about done, R.E.M was still on I.R.S (or just about to leave) and the charts were filled with Debbie Gibson, Poison and other throwaway crap that we remember with laughter. The Joshua Tree was so huge that even I (as a 9 year old) knew how big it was. It is the album that took U2 to the stratosphere and the music was so different than everything else out there then.

The same argument (albeit a bit lesser of an impact) could be made for AB. It came out pre-Nirvana and it was such an impressive work that it was hard not to notice. Not to mention the tour that came along with it.

Fast forward to now, U2 are getting older but by no means is the music suffering. This album is getting awesome reviews left and right but I don't think when the day is over that it will be considered a masterpiece. Is it flawed? Not to my ears but I do not think this album will have the impact as JT and AB did during their respective times of release. It will sell like gangbusters, the tour will be sold out everywhere but really other than a few minor blips on the radar when hasnt a U2 record done that?

That said, I got a really big contact high for the first few days of listens and now that the music and lyrics are becoming sewn into my cerebral cortex (and will not stop for at least a year) I'm beginning to wind down a bit. I just don't feel at the end of the day that this album will be as far reaching and beloved as the other 2 among casual U2 listeners or even critics. It reminds of ATYCLB in this aspect, fantastic record but really nothing that's going to stand the test of time and will not be a requirement on most music fans shelves. Sure, there will be new U2 fans that are born on this record and you'll have your completists but it wont be universal like JT or AB are.

Sorry to make it sound negative, I love the album, I really do (I rank it 3rd in U2's all time catalog followed 4th by Pop) but it's not going to be a landmark and its not a masterpiece IMO.

 

[jick]

Rolling Stone has already declared ATYCLB as U2's 3rd Masterpiece. So HTDAAB, if ever, is U2's 4th masterpiece.

Cheers,

J

 

[Aardvark747]

Rolling Stone has already declared ATYCLB as U2's 3rd Masterpiece. So HTDAAB, if ever, is U2's 4th masterpiece.

Cheers,

J

But are Rolling Stone correct with that statement?

 

[Lo-Fi]

I don't think you can tell right now, only with distance and time will you really be able to tell. I think you need to wait and see if you're still playing this record in 5 - 10 years, if you are, yeah, it's probably they're 3rd real master piece.

Rolling Stone were too quick to give ATYCLB that title, time has show that record up to be a very average record already, even the boys have been stating that of recent, and if I remember right RS gave it a 4/5, how can a master piece only get a 4?

 

[Axver]

I say that yes, it's definitely their third masterpiece (though I'm in the very, very, VERY small minority that considers UF to be a masterpiece rather than AB).

I'll elaborate on that tomorrow.

 

[jackboy]

I say that yes, it's definitely their third masterpiece (though I'm in the very, very, VERY small minority that considers UF to be a masterpiece rather than AB).

I'll elaborate on that tomorrow.

I agree...UF is stronger then AB

 

[JulioArca]

I believe its way too early to make any conclusions yet, the album hasn't even been released yet

 

[U2_Guy]

In order to be a masterpiece it had to be groundbreaking in some sense.

And it is not.

So, it's not a masterpiece.

 

[EXIT_TO_THE_NORTH]

If my memory serves me, RS also gave POP 5 (five) stars. and has since retracted to four stars. RS is not a reliable review. Yes, they gave JT five stars. My guess is is they will give HTDAAB five stars too, based on that it's better than ATYCLB … which they gave four stars.

oh, and late '91 was not pre-Nirvana.

 

[ponkine]

If my memory serves me, RS also gave POP 5 (five) stars. and has since retracted to four stars. RS is not a reliable review. Yes, they gave JT five stars.

I noticed that too my friend

Well, In my humble opinion this album has nothing worthy to become their third masterpiece. I just think is matter of time. When U2 released Zooropa, all said it was their third masterpiece ( first AB and Joshua Tree ). Later, happened the same thing with Pop and ATYCLB. I don´t know which thing makes everybody believe a new album immediatly is a must have, a classic, a masterpiece, etc I really don´t know which thing is, but is very weird, because with every new album happen the same thing, you know "their third masterpiece, awesome, must have, a classic !!!!", etc
As for me, this album is not their third masterpiece. That sentence put down really better albums like War, Unforgettable Fire or Pop, and that makes no sense for me
A classic and a definitive album must be something shocked me, gives me extraordinary music, etc This album don´t give anything special, just a good time listening, that´s all. I can´t rate this album as a "masterpiece", sorry

For me, this is my list of U2´s REAL masterpieces:

1- Acthung Baby and Joshua Tree ( any of these ones could be number one or second one )
3- Pop and Zooropa
5- Unforgettable Fire, War and Boy

 

[beau2ifulday]

No, I don't think it will be remembered as a masterpiece.
I guess time will tell, but the hype around the CD right now probably makes it seem more masterpiece worthy than it is.

 

[U2_Guy]

I noticed that too my friend

Well, In my humble opinion this album has nothing worthy to become their third masterpiece. I just think is matter of time. When U2 released Zooropa, all said it was their third masterpiece ( first AB and Joshua Tree ). Later, happened the same thing with Pop and ATYCLB. I don´t know which thing makes everybody believe a new album immediatly is a must have, a classic, a masterpiece, etc I really don´t know which thing is, but is very weird, because with every new album happen the same thing, you know "their third masterpiece, awesome, must have, a classic !!!!", etc
As for me, this album is not their third masterpiece. That sentence put down really better albums like War, Unforgettable Fire or Pop, and that makes no sense for me
A classic and a definitive album must be something shocked me, gives me extraordinary music, etc This album don´t give anything special, just a good time listening, that´s all. I can´t rate this album as a "masterpiece", sorry

For me, this is my list of U2´s REAL masterpieces:

1- Acthung Baby and Joshua Tree ( any of these ones could be number one or second one )
3- Pop and Zooropa
5- Unforgettable Fire, War and Boy

Your list is EXACTLY my list Ponkine. And i always agree with your posts too. We are at the same "fan level". Muy bueno! Nosotros de Sudamerica are the best fans!

 

[ponkine]

Your list is EXACTLY my list Ponkine. And i always agree with your posts too. We are at the same "fan level". Muy bueno! Nosotros de Sudamerica are the best fans!

jajajajajaj many thanks my friend, nice of you

Oye amigo, de qué parte de Sudamérica eres ???
Bueno, como tú sabes, soy de Chile

Saludos

 

[artdirector]

If you can listen to the album from start to finish like JT and AB without skipping around then its a third masterpiece. ATYCLB I could not do that. I had to skip some of the songs cus they were giving me a headache. For this album, I have yet to skip a song. Each song holds itself nicely. Only time will tell.

 

[If you shout...]

U2_Guy and Ponkine, I agree with the two of you YET again...! It's nice to be in like-minded (that is to say, dissenting) company, around here. I, too, really enjoy the album--it's very fun, very listenable, and I can already tell that it'll have a lot more musical currency as time wears on than All That You Can't Leave Behind did. Even so, I DO NOT need five years to tell you whether or not this album will be a "classic"--my ears work NOW, and they can hear. They hear the sound of a good album...not at ALL a classic one.

And, for the record, I say that Achtung Baby is a masterpiece, followed by two more which I can never decide on the placement of. One day, The Joshua Tree will be number two, but the next day Pop will take the crown. I don't really think that Zooropa is a classic, but I DO think it to be a VERY VERY GREAT album and I consistently put it at nubmer four on my list. Booyakasha.

 

[U2_Guy]

jajajajajaj many thanks my friend, nice of you

Oye amigo, de qué parte de Sudamérica eres ???
Bueno, como tú sabes, soy de Chile

Saludos

Soy de Brasil! Yo estuvo en Chile en 97. Muy lindo! Chile es muy precioso!

 

[apuraja]

First of all, I think we should appreciate this time as it's unlikely U2 will ever have a golden age like this. Starting with AB, then Zooropa, Pop (underrated!), ATYCLB, and HTDAAB. That's an unsurpassed record of creativity in the modern rock age. I thnk H TDAAB, definitely is more immediate in the sense it's in your face and the songs definitely grab a hold of you more so.

ATYCLB for me was more nuanced but more of a grower and the songs took on more meaning after 9/11 live, at least. I think HTDAAB will be a classic, let's see how it transitions live.

 

[The_acrobat]

ATYCLB really was their 3rd masterpiece. Years from now, Beautiful Day is going to remembered up there with Streets, WOWY and One. It was U2's 3rd best selling album. Everybody has it, everybody knows the songs.... it defined an era, really. People loved that album, just as they loved Joshua Tree and Achtung Baby. A "classic" is not determined by what 20 people on a message board think. Terms like "Classic" and "Masterpiece" relate to how successful they were, how they encapsulated a certain time, and how in 10 years people will still remember it. In 10 years, people will remember ATYCLB as a great album that won a shitload of awards. It's now nearly 8 years since POP, and people just remember how stupid the Discotheque video was, and how Popmart had slow ticket sales.

And how can you people think ATYCLB is a bad record? The first 6 songs are fucking classic. Peace on Earth is a quiet version of Please and SBS, WILATW is U2's overlooked masterpiece, NY is cool and rockin, and Grace is pure beauty. It's ambient, and reminds me of something on the Unforgettable Fire.

 

[disco2blue]

You guys can reminisce, criticize, and theorize all you want - I love this album, that's all I know. Some comparisons are not even relevant any more.
9 year olds listening to Joshua Tree, thus making it a kind of masterpiece? Well, first of all, good music and rock and roll isn't the 'in thing' any more. Today 9 year olds want to be 'Hood Stars', spark a spliff and listen to Snoop - the times have changed, regardless of what U2 put out. To determine if an album is a masterpiece by comparing two very different societies (the 80's! lol, and NOW), is not going to be very effective.

Is this album a masterpiece? Yes, it is. And if Boy, War, and UF can be considered masterpieces based only on U2 fan's nostalgic opinion, and not sales, as people are measuring AB and Joshua Tree in sales ultimately, then why can't this album find its way onto that list? I feel confident in saying U2 have about 6 masterpieces, including How To Dismantle an Atomic Bomb - and it gets a bit boring to see the U2 snobs shoot down anything recent, 'cause they experienced a time exclusively to themselves, where new U2 fans can't really relate. Older doesn't make something automatically better, and that is why this album, to me, kills and slaughters Boy and War - and I consider those aforementioned albums pretty good. But that young, dated band has finally grown into atomic, timeless creativity - thank God.

Long Live How to Dismantle an Atomic Bomb!

- Nicholas

zoou2@hotmail.com

 

[doctorwho]

I think this will be U2's 4th or 5th masterpiece.

 

[Dr_Macphisto]

ATYCLB really was their 3rd masterpiece. Years from now, Beautiful Day is going to remembered up there with Streets, WOWY and One. It was U2's 3rd best selling album. Everybody has it, everybody knows the songs.... it defined an era, really. People loved that album, just as they loved Joshua Tree and Achtung Baby. A "classic" is not determined by what 20 people on a message board think. Terms like "Classic" and "Masterpiece" relate to how successful they were, how they encapsulated a certain time, and how in 10 years people will still remember it. In 10 years, people will remember ATYCLB as a great album that won a shitload of awards. It's now nearly 8 years since POP, and people just remember how stupid the Discotheque video was, and how Popmart had slow ticket sales.

And how can you people think ATYCLB is a bad record? The first 6 songs are fucking classic. Peace on Earth is a quiet version of Please and SBS, WILATW is U2's overlooked masterpiece, NY is cool and rockin, and Grace is pure beauty. It's ambient, and reminds me of something on the Unforgettable Fire.

Ohh... such a voice. I say everything this young man says.

 

[believer75]

ATYCLB really was their 3rd masterpiece. Years from now, Beautiful Day is going to remembered up there with Streets, WOWY and One. It was U2's 3rd best selling album. Everybody has it, everybody knows the songs.... it defined an era, really. People loved that album, just as they loved Joshua Tree and Achtung Baby. A "classic" is not determined by what 20 people on a message board think. Terms like "Classic" and "Masterpiece" relate to how successful they were, how they encapsulated a certain time, and how in 10 years people will still remember it. In 10 years, people will remember ATYCLB as a great album that won a shitload of awards. It's now nearly 8 years since POP, and people just remember how stupid the Discotheque video was, and how Popmart had slow ticket sales.

And how can you people think ATYCLB is a bad record? The first 6 songs are fucking classic. Peace on Earth is a quiet version of Please and SBS, WILATW is U2's overlooked masterpiece, NY is cool and rockin, and Grace is pure beauty. It's ambient, and reminds me of something on the Unforgettable Fire.

You are exactly right!

 

[teebee]

This album will be remembered for many things, especially how guys in their mid-40s can still put out great, viable music.

But it won't be regarded as a masterpiece.

Listen again to Achtung Baby and Joshua Tree ... listen really closely. Then listen to HTDAAB. AB and JT just have "something" undefinable that all the greats do. HTDAAB is more of a singles album; there's really no defining theme or cohesion that the other 2 have.

 

[Peter]

Listen again to Achtung Baby and Joshua Tree ... listen really closely. Then listen to HTDAAB. AB and JT just have "something" undefinable that all the greats do. HTDAAB is more of a singles album; there's really no defining theme or cohesion that the other 2 have.

Exactly. But does HTDAAB have to be as revolutionary as AB or JT? Is anyone still waiting on this? With HTDAAB, they prove that they still can make great music, much better than the other bands of their age, but now the circumstances are different. Back in 1991 they had to change if they would remain relevant. After R & H, there was a sense that U2 kept repeating itself.
Right now, that's not the case any more. So, reinventing yourself completely isn't necessary to be relevant, as long as they keep making good music. They kept IMHO their promise, so they delivered and deserve a very special place in music...

 

[teebee]

No, nobody is ... but the debate was whether or not HTDAAB was U2's third masterpiece. By saying "third" you are hinting that it's on the same plane as AB or JT.

I am saying, it's an excellent album, but it's not a masterpiece as it's not in the same league as those other two.

 

[doctorwho]

Trouble is, I don't consider JT a masterpiece.

 

[AEON]

This album IS groundbreaking. U2 has never recorded anything like Miracle Drug, All Because of You, Vertigo, or Crumbs (no matter how much everyone wants to say they are AB ripoffs - go listen to AB).

In order for an album to be groundbreaking it has to be defiant. (IMO). This album defies everything that is out there right now. Everything fits into a neat little category. None of the male singers SING any more! They just rap or rant. Bono definitely SINGS on this alnum. This album, just like AB and JT, is SELF-defining.

I am sure that if this forum was around when AB and JT came out - we would see some of the same criticisms. As a matter of fact, most of my freinds in college (legitimate music fans) hated AB when it first came out - they thought U2 were trying to be too much like the Stone Roses and Jesus Jones. They thought "Even Better and The Real Thing" sounded like a Coke scommercial and "Who's Gonna Ride Your Wild Horses" had some of U2's worst all time lyrics.

Back in High School, my friends ripped on the second half of JT as too slow, too religious, and hated that dang harmonica.

It may be a bit early to tell how great this album is, but I have a very good vibe around it. There enough layers to keep the songs interseting for a very long time. And I think their songwriting is the best it has ever been.

 

[MatejU2]

1. masterpiece-UF
2. masterpiece-TJT
3. masterpiece-AB
4. masterpiece-HTDAAB

 

[xovonob now!]

I think the reason I have trouble comparing How To Dismantle an Atomic Bomb with Achtung Baby or the Joshua Tree (or Unforgettable Fire, for you die hards) is that those albums conjure up a single cohesive sound and feeling. When I hear Joshua Tree, I hear Edge's ringing repeating guitars boldly filling a whole desert. With Achtung Baby, the whole album is crunchy, distorted and full of Angst and the urban culture that produced it in Berlin.
With How to Dismantle, there just isn't a parallel image that comes with it. The album cover, the first single and All Because of You (and a couple others) just say "four kids rocking out in their basement finding themselves." More than a couple songs have a strong Oasis tinge to them... not just One Step Closer, which i think Noel Gallagher had something to do with. Other songs (Sometimes You Can't Make It On Your Own and Original of the Species) just don't carry that. They're kickbacks... albeit excellent, breathtaking kickbacks to Bono the Preacher.

They've made some excellent songs here. No doubt. Even the b-sides are fantastic. I just can't find the coherence and thematic clarity that helped make Achtung Baby and Joshua Tree all that they are.

But maybe an album doesn't need that single theme to make it a masterpiece. U2 said with All that you can't leave behind that it was an album where every song could be a single. That makes a fantastic listen. But does it make it a masterpiece? I guess time will tell.

 

[elevation]

If my memory serves me, RS also gave POP 5 (five) stars. and has since retracted to four stars. RS is not a reliable review. Yes, they gave JT five stars. My guess is is they will give HTDAAB five stars too, based on that it's better than ATYCLB … which they gave four stars.

oh, and late '91 was not pre-Nirvana.

No, they initially gave Pop four stars.... I have the article somewhere.