An UN-JUST, UNCARING God?????? (related to what happened yesterday...)

[slightly_ jaded]

Ya'know it pisses me off, senseless shit like this happens (of course you know what i'm talking about).....WHY? the world sucks ....i've never found great love in life (right now struggling in school, just life really, can't make sense of it all), i've always "trugged" though it, always had the attitude "i'm here because i have to be here", and when tragic shit like this happens it just adds to it.... in short, there just seems to be really no point to life, God is just playing a big fucking joke on us all ...don't get me wrong, believe it or not i've always believed, never been a religious nut but never-the-less, i've always been a believer (i guess i just harbor alot of anger, even to a God that supposedly is always so 'just' & 'fair')
......why must all this happen?!?!????????
(some may reply sin, but God created man w/ sin, we were born w/ it, is it fair?, doesn't seem so.... just imagine, really its like a Teacher starting their students out with a 'F')

It has been a very sad couple on days. No words for the poor people that lost their lives for no reason at all and all the familes. . . its just, well...very sad

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--STU234

Dammit, i'm NOT a newbie i just can't decide on a "handle" i'm happy with. . .

U2= The greatest band EVER!

 

[80sU2isBest]

God didn't create people with sin. Man was created perfectly. Man chose to sin. If you want to blame a supernatural force, blame Satan. He is the one who whispers eveil thoughts into the minds of man.

 

[Skeksis]

I feel for you STU234. There is no question that this event is pointless and horrible. You are quite justified at harboring anger towards God. I very well understand your frustration. There is every right to be frustrated. Perhaps reevaluating your core beliefs on God, you might find the peace and solace you are looking for. I certaintly did. Mysticism is a disease that plagues us all, including myself.

I am sad with you..

~Christian

 

[melon]

God gave us free will, not "original sin." It's true. However, like any great power, it is abused, and our free will gives us the power to do both profoundly good things and profoundly bad things. It is up to each individual to decide what to do with this free will.

If God smote everyone who did bad, we'd all be dead.

Melon

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How long must we sing this song?!

 

[Ratch]

"....were you just around the corner....
...If there's an order, in all of this disorder, is it like a tape recorder, can we rewind it just once more?
Wake up, wake up dead man...."

I blame no one but the terrorists and their backers. We have free will and the free will of some who have no conscience bring tragic consequences. Heaven is perfect, not Earth.

 

[80sU2isBest]

True Melon, true.

 

[slightly_ jaded]

God didn't create people with sin. Man was created perfectly. Man chose to sin. If you want to blame a supernatural force, blame Satan. He is the one who whispers eveil thoughts into the minds of man.

Yeah, of course i've heard that to... and i'm not saying i actually disagree w/ it, BUT, it is like, take for example...... what white people did to the black people, of course there will be some anger but should every person of another color(white or otherwise) pay for what some dumb-ass white people did such a long time ago? we can't help what happened, just like we can't change what Adam & Eve did (which is why we are now imperfect and sin-infested) .....you would think that God is so compassionate that he would understand this (not that he is incapable of it) but i mean God didn't even create us to where we can fully understand everything (i.e. him and/or his will) so why punish us for something we had no hand in????????????? why not, say if some child's mother or father is evil and does all kinds of crazy stuff, hey, the kid is related to their parent...why doesn't God just send them to hell for what their parent did??????
My mother does dope does that mean i should repent for her sins or i'm going to hell? after all we are related and moreover we are human which apparently is all it takes (also, God died for us all, but, what was the sense if he knew that Adam/Eve would do what they did therefore he would give his life, but he knew that he would do it, i mean doesn't God know all?, its like he wanted to play 'hero' or something....i swear, i must be painting myself as a freakin' heathen horrible atheist-type person by some of the things i'm saying, i don't mean it to sound this way, these are just the contents of my head, believe me i really do Believe in God, some things just don't seem to make sense ya'know
*brain overload*

"How long must we sing this song"
Just thinking about all this, i know how 'I' feel, damn, i can just imagine what some of the people that were affected by the bombs and all must think and feel, if God is compassionate as he is made out to be then let Him have mercy on those people that must to questioning him and just everything and if at all compassionate at all i hope he(God) doesn't point his finger like "you heathen people how dare you question me"(we are, after all, only human), its just kinda overwelming to think about, i mean really...

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--STU234

Dammit, i'm NOT a newbie i just can't decide on a "handle" i'm happy with. . .

U2= The greatest band EVER!

[This message has been edited by STU234 (edited 09-12-2001).]

 

[melon]

Our actions we make today will profoundly change the rest of the course of history. It's true. The decisions our grandparents, our great-grandparents, and many generations before them have created the world we live in today. Their "free will" still resounds today. That is why it is imperative that we do what is right at all times, because, one of these days, there will be no "tomorrow" to make it up.

Melon

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How long must we sing this song?!

 

[slightly_ jaded]

Ok, free-will, why does God give it to us if he knows we will fuck up w/ the 'privilage' of it, thus he knows we will just all end up in hell, burning for eternity, if God is love then why would he want (well, not really want) people to suffer? ....isn't ignorance bliss? he could have just made us ignorant and program us w/ only what he wanted thus we would be 'happy' and would not WANT to do wrong.....

In the same breath you could say, why didn't God give us the ability to shoot bullets out of our fingers and kill those that we hate, that would be free-will, would it not? of course it would be an extreme type of free-will but still free-will...

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--STU234

Dammit, i'm NOT a newbie i just can't decide on a "handle" i'm happy with. . .

U2= The greatest band EVER!

 

[melon]

God doesn't want us to suffer. Hence, with free will, there is a huge capacity for greatness! I mean, if all the nations of this world put down their weapons and contributed the same money allocated for war into solving, let's say, poverty, it would be solved. Period.

Also, in great tragedy, there is often a lesson to be learned, or, even a silver lining. Our entire modern world would not exist if neither World War II or the Cold War had not existed. Everything from computers to hair dryers to microwaves to the American superpower was directly in the aftermath of both.

The assumption is that God always gives us what we want. I think that God, in goodness and in bad, does what is best, and, unfortunately, that does involve tragedy. Remember that those who died today, while dead in the earthly sense, are no longer in pain, and I'm confident are in communion with God even as we speak. Even in the face of such tragedy, there is goodness in this world.

Melon

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How long must we sing this song?!

 

[Achtung_Bebe]

First of all, biblical happenings require a great deal of faith.

Secondly, when God created man, he created the perfect man. Then, man decides to go against the creator--I'm sure this was a smack in the face to the one we owe the most. Due to this inclination to sin and rebel against God, we must pass a test in order to reach eternity with him.

If the inclination to go against God was not cast upon mankind, then we would not have to suffer such trials. But, that is not the case, and we do have to prove ourselves by choosing to do what is right.

We have been extended a great helping hand, however, by God's only son... he gave his life so that we may live.

I believe God is just, but the rewards don't come without an effort.

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"If I am close to the music, and you are close to the music, we are close to each other." -Bono

 

[jphelmet]

"Ok, free-will, why does God give it to us if he knows we will fuck up w/ the 'privilage' of it "


The reason God gives man free-will is for His own glory. If we were mindless ingorant beings that could not choose for ourselves, how would that glorify God? The reason for our existence is to know God and glorify Him. He is the creator of eveything, who are we to question why things happen the way they do. (not to sound judgemental b/c everyone does it) He took human form and subjected himself to our free-will to show us how much He loved us. The point I am trying to make is God wants us to love HIm, and how could we if we were just robots w/out free-will?

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jp
what shall i render unto the Lord for all his benefits toward me? i will take the cup of salvation, and call upon the name of the Lord.

 

[The Wanderer]

doesn't an omniscient God know that this was the destiny of these people when they were created? oh right it was "free will," so God didn't really know their destiny... nice contradiction

 

[melon]

God knows our destiny. If it influenced it, though, that would be predestination. There is a difference.

Melon

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How long must we sing this song?!

 

[The Wanderer]

right, so I guess God didn't realize until after he created these guys that they would have this destiny, so there was nothing God could do or it would be taking away free will

 

[80sU2isBest]

Originally posted by melon:
God knows our destiny. If it influenced it, though, that would be predestination. There is a difference.
Melon

Melon, i find myself agreeing with you -again and again and again in this thread.

 

[doctorwho]

When I was younger, I felt just as you do now, STU234. It seemed to me that God was very unjust. Why have this suffering? Why have this hate? I would literally - and I mean literally - scream at God (when home alone) asking why he allowed this pain. I couldn't comprehend it.

However, over the years, I found that rather than condemn God for His apparent "lack of action" in allowing this hatred, it was far better to open my heart and allow God to "answer." This took quite a leap of faith and a commitment to God. I'm not talking about being a "holy roller" here - I just mean that one really has to be open to hear what God has to say. And when I've been able to do this, I do get answers. They are not always the answers I want. And there are still times I question whether a certain action was really for the best. But God always finds a way of comforting me and providing solace. He allows me to understand and accept His actions.

Ilike everyone here, am still grieving over this horrible tragedy. Fortunately, my family and friends in NYC all appear to be safe. But this doesn't remove the pain I feel for those who suffered losses. But at least God's solace is helping me accept this tragedy.

God did NOT want this disaster to occur. People are confused - they think they know what God wants. Confused people do not have to go to the extreme of having a plane destroy a building; rather, it could be a preacher twisting God's words for his own profit. Some people pervert God's words so that they can freely condemn others. This is not what God wants. However, few people really open their hearts to God to learn what He really wants - and that is simply love.

I know being in school is a challenge. I know because I was there. You probably are questioning your choice of majors. You may even be questioning going to school at all. After all, you are a young person - you should be out celebrating life, not stuck studying. But I assure you, the sacrifice you make now is worthwhile. However, if you truly feel it is not, then perhaps you have to reconsider even going to school. Assuming you are in college, I ask you to realize that college is not for everyone. That said, I have a feeling it IS for you, STU234. And I have a feeling you will do great things.

Bono sang, "Don't let the bastards grind you down." This simple statement is incredibly powerful. Don't let the negative things in the world destroy the beauty you see all around you. Take a look at those beautiful trees. Watch the children play. See the squirrel collect nuts. And witness the outpouring of love, consideration and generosity that the people of the U.S. are showing to each other because of this horrible tragedy. These simple sites of beauty and love is where you will find God. Don't let that escape you.

 

[foray]

God did NOT want this disaster to occur. People are confused - they think they know what God wants.

Yes, doctorwho is right. A lot of folks here are putting God in a box.

foray

 

[melon]

I will admit it. I cannot read God's mind on why He allows evil. Why He chooses to create things He knows will go wrong without also changing or altering its course, as far as we know.

But there is a purpose to all this: a lesson to be learned. Perhaps it is the necessity of faith at all times; that humankind, while created to be self-reliant, cannot live without God and His grace, and this destruction we are living in is our consequence for turning away from Him. Why should He intervene if so many do not acknowledge Him?

But to be able to understand why God knowingly allows suffering would be to understand the meaning of life itself. Unfortunately, even I cannot answer that question (although I'm still trying and think I'm 90% there

).

Melon

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How long must we sing this song?!

 

[80sU2isBest]

Good grief, Melon. We agree 4 times in one thread. Maybe we ARE in the end times!

 

[speedracer]

You know, this whole predestination vs. free will debate is thousands of years old.

 

[The Wanderer]

thanks for that last post melon, that did make sense (see, you made sense out of something that doesn't make sense!)

btw, I'm just asking questions, not trying to "deny God" or some such nonsense, just trying to sort some things out and I expected to get some answers if I kept asking them in the presence of melon (ok, that's as much ass-kissing as you'll ever get from me melon, so enjoy it!)

 

[melon]

I'm more of a traditionalist than people will give me credit for. My faith is just as strong and worthy of any of the self-proclaimed "religious," even if I may not fit their essentialist molds.

Hehe...that's very amusing, The Wanderer. I will keep on answering them too, so if you do have any, I'm more than happy to answer them. I've been pondering religion for a very long time now, and so I might be able to help out the many here who might not have thought about God until this unfortunate event hit. Sadly, it often takes such horrific events for people to reacknowledge His place in their life and see that there is something greater than ourselves in this chaotic world we live in.

Melon

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How long must we sing this song?!

 

[Bonochick]

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Trust In God...But Lock Your Doors

 

[The Wanderer]

this may not be the right place to ask this question (and I'm sure it's impossible to sum up), but what are your thoughts on God as a single entity, for instance, is the Christian God the same God that Muslims worship in the form of Allah? Do you feel that there is one Sumpreme Being that people of different lands have developed varied ways of worshiping? From what I have been told, most religions have very similar characteristics and teachings that suggest the founders simply developed different ways of worshipping the same basic God

if so, what sort of similarities exist and what evidence is there to verify this? furthermore, does it matter if someone born in another region of the world who doesn't (or even if they do but it goes against their culture) have access to the "correct" form of religious worship, takes the wrong path but yet still recognizes God and the teachings of Gods' "chosen ones?"

in short, can one be a Muslim, Hindu or some other religion and not anger the Christian God (if indeed the true way to worship is through Christianity)?

 

[80sU2isBest]

Wanderer, the answer I would give is that no, religions don't worship the same God/ In the case of Islam and Christianity, many of the stories from our Holy Scriptures have the same origin and are intertwined in their history and characters (for example, Abraham, Moses, Ishmael, etc.), the characteristics of Allah do not match the characteristics of the Christian God, so i would say "no, tehy are not the same God". For instance, the heart of the Christian gospel is that the only way to salvation is by God's grace, not through our own works. I believe Christianity is the only religion that believes this way. I personally believe that having never heard the Gospel of Christ doesn't mean a person automatically goes to hell. I also don't believe it means they automatically go to Heaven, either, though.



[This message has been edited by 80sU2isBest (edited 09-12-2001).]

 

[melon]

Actually, to start disagreeing with 80s

, "Allah" is the Judeo-Christian God. As history follows, Mohammed, at first, marched upon Jerusalem with the hope of being allowed to participate and share the faith of Judaism. He then wanted to spread this faith to the rest of the Arab people.

However, he was turned away, as he was not one of the "chosen people." I think it was more of an act of racism more than anything, as Judaism, even back then, did accept converts.

Anyway, it was that one act of denial that changed the course of history, not unlike how Martin Luther never intended to break away from the Catholic Church; he only wanted to change it.

Time changes things, and how God is expressed is quite different between Jews, Christians, and Muslims. But yes, it is the same God, even by traditional and historical accounts.

Melon

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How long must we sing this song?!

 

[melon]

I will answer the rest of your question tomorrow, The Wanderer. I'm too tired to go any further.

Melon

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How long must we sing this song?!

 

[The Wanderer]

thanks for your comments 80sU2 and melon, I appreciate your taking time to do that... yes, I'm done for the day too, and hopefully all will be quiet in the world while we sleep and God help those rescuers who are desperately working to save any possible survivors at the sight of what was once the World Trade Center

 

[zoomerang II]

Presumably some of these terrorists believed that they were acting on Gods will, that God / Allah wanted them to carry out this evil deed. I heard a report saying that the people who carried this deed out have been tricked by their commanders - as noone has claimed responsibility.

Are we again seeing the abuse of God's name, actions in the name of God, as the root cause of all evil? How do we get around this - is it wrong to publically undertake any human action in "the name of" God?