Alternative Perspective on this Tragedy (Why are we surprised?)

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Danospano

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Four teams of 3-5 people were all able to penetrate airport security on the same morning at 3 different airports and pull off this heinous act? My only response is -- that?s all?

Well, the pundits are in full diarrhea mode, gushing on about the ?terrorist threat? and today?s scariest dude on planet earth -- Osama bin Laden. Hey, who knows, maybe he did it. But, something just doesn?t add up.

Am I being asked to believe that this guy who sleeps in a tent in a desert has been training pilots to fly our most modern, sophisticated jumbo jets with such pinpoint accuracy that they are able to hit these three targets without anyone wondering why these planes were so far off path?

Or am I being asked to believe that there were four religious/political fanatics who JUST HAPPENED to be skilled airline pilots who JUST HAPPENED to want to kill themselves today?

Maybe you can find one jumbo jet pilot willing to die for the cause -- but FOUR? Ok, maybe you can -- I don?t know.

What I do know is that all day long I have heard everything about this bin Laden guy except this one fact -- WE created the monster known as Osama bin Laden!

Where did he go to terrorist school? At the CIA!

Don?t take my word for it -- I saw a piece on MSNBC last year that laid it all out. When the Soviet Union occupied Afghanistan, the CIA trained him and his buddies in how to commits acts of terrorism against the Soviet forces. It worked! The Soviets turned and ran. Bin Laden was grateful for what we taught him and thought it might be fun to use those same techniques against us.

We abhor terrorism -- unless we?re the ones doing the terrorizing.

We paid and trained and armed a group of terrorists in Nicaragua in the 1980s who killed over 30,000 civilians. That was OUR work. You and me. Thirty thousand murdered civilians and who the hell even remembers!

We fund a lot of oppressive regimes that have killed a lot of innocent people, and we never let the human suffering THAT causes to interrupt our day one single bit.

We have orphaned so many children, tens of thousands around the world, with our taxpayer-funded terrorism (in Chile, in Vietnam, in Gaza, in Salvador) that I suppose we shouldn?t be too surprised when those orphans grow up and are a little whacked in the head from the horror we have helped cause.

Yet, our recent domestic terrorism bombings have not been conducted by a guy from the desert but rather by our own citizens: a couple of ex-military guys who hated the federal government.

From the first minutes of today?s events, I never heard that possibility suggested. Why is that?

Maybe it?s because the A-rabs are much better foils. A key ingredient in getting Americans whipped into a frenzy against a new enemy is the all-important race card. It?s much easier to get us to hate when the object of our hatred doesn?t look like us.

Congressmen and Senators spent the day calling for more money for the military; one Senator on CNN even said he didn?t want to hear any more talk about more money for education or health care -- we should have only one priority: our self-defense.

Will we ever get to the point that we realize we will be more secure when the rest of the world isn?t living in poverty so we can have nice running shoes?

In just 8 months, Bush gets the whole world back to hating us again. He withdraws from the Kyoto agreement, walks us out of the Durban conference on racism, insists on restarting the arms race -- you name it, and Baby Bush has blown it all.

The Senators and Congressmen tonight broke out in a spontaneous version of ?God Bless America.? They?re not a bad group of singers!

Yes, God, please do bless us.

Many families have been devastated tonight. This just is not right. They did not deserve to die. If someone did this to get back at Bush, then they did so by killing thousands of people who DID NOT VOTE for him! Boston, New York, DC, and the planes? destination of California -- these were places that voted AGAINST Bush!

Why kill them? Why kill anyone? Such insanity?

Let?s mourn, let?s grieve, and when it?s appropriate let?s examine our contribution to the unsafe world we live in.

It doesn?t have to be like this?

Yours,

Michael Moore
 
1. So are you saying bin Laden isn't behind this, or are you saying he is behind it, but it's the U.S.'s fault because we trained him, or none of the above? I'm confused.

2. You hate George Bush. You don't think he should be president. Fine. But if you think this attack had anything to do with Kyoto, or Durban, or a missile defense system, you need to open your eyes wider. If Osama bin Laden is behind this (which most of the evidence points to at this point) then this attack was about the U.S. presence in the Middle East for the past 60 years. You need to dig deeper than George Bush to pin that policy on someone. Do we have to pick a politician to blame this on? Isn't it clear that the blame should fall on the shoulders of the murderers who killed thousands yesterday?



[This message has been edited by Spiral_Staircase (edited 09-12-2001).]
 
Yer right
USA always wanted to rule and judge the earth ( Former Yogoslavia, Israel , Iraq Etc ) this is not going to work ,
and ofcource we got a lot of enemies , most of them are countries-loosers , or national patriots , so ........
 
Hey Ivan, where did you learn how to type? Your posts really need to be cut in half.



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Catch the mouse
Squash his head
Put him in the pot
 
I thought most of what you wrote, but, out of respect, decided against writing it. However, since the cat is out of the bag...

Osama bin Laden was trained and funded billions by our government to fight the Soviets in Afghanistan during the 1980s. The militias, incidentally, are also from the 1980s: trained to defend the U.S. in case our manpower was exhausted in a nuclear holocaust. Both, obviously, went awry.

Bin Laden, however, has pointed to the U.S. invasion of Iraq as being the turning point in his hatred of our country, so blaming Dubya would be misdirected, although it would be foolish to say he didn't contribute to recent hostile climates. However, sad to say, the sins of America's past, particularly our actions during the Cold War, are coming back to us. The key, now, is to ensure we do what is right and not make new sins! However, we are reasonably expected to defend ourselves. Balance is the key.

Melon

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How long must we sing this song?!
 
I am tired of people knocking Bush! This would have happened regardless of our leadership. Don't forget bin Laden bombed the WTC in 1993 when no one had heard of GW Bush and Clinton was in office. He'd have destroyed it then if he could, he failed, so he tried another tactic this time. He's evil, he's been after us for years. To him, all of our politicians and all of us are the same, 'great satan' and 'infidels' he wants to eliminate. Taking potshots at Bush only makes us look weak and foolish and adds to America getting a worse rep worldwide. We need to stand behind our President and his helpers.

I was sickened yesterday listening to C-SPAN. There were radicals on both sides calling in. Some blamed Bush, claimed the attack happened because he was 'never elected' and one person even went so far as to say Bush planned the attack in an attempt to start a war and kickstart the economy! On the other side, there were those who blamed Clinton, saying he weakened our world power, let any riffraff into the country, and cut our defense. One person was so extreme they demanded Clinton and Gore be handed over to the terrorists! These people have all gone too far, and none of it is helping this country, the world, or the situation. The only enemies here are the ones responsible for the attack, not Bush or Clinton! They would never intentionally do anything to harm this country. Get real.

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I B 4 U2!
 
When some very rich country begins to go to NOT THEIR BUSINESS area , punishment will follow
If United States are willing to rule the earth , they have to deal with a lot of bastards , cowards , politicians
Did anybody saw the last version of Video
" Welcome to the Jungle " by G'N'R
OR "TESTIFY" by Rage Against The Machine ?!
 
Originally posted by Danospano:
Osama bin Laden. Hey, who knows, maybe he did it. But, something just doesn?t add up.

Am I being asked to believe that this guy who sleeps in a tent in a desert has been training pilots to fly our most modern, sophisticated jumbo jets with such pinpoint accuracy that they are able to hit these three targets without anyone wondering why these planes were so far off path?

Or am I being asked to believe that there were four religious/political fanatics who JUST HAPPENED to be skilled airline pilots who JUST HAPPENED to want to kill themselves today?

Maybe you can find one jumbo jet pilot willing to die for the cause -- but FOUR? Ok, maybe you can -- I don?t know.
Yet, our recent domestic terrorism bombings have not been conducted by a guy from the desert but rather by our own citizens: a couple of ex-military guys who hated the federal government.

From the first minutes of today?s events, I never heard that possibility suggested. Why is that?

Maybe it?s because the A-rabs are much better foils. A key ingredient in getting Americans whipped into a frenzy against a new enemy is the all-important race card. It?s much easier to get us to hate when the object of our hatred doesn?t look like us.
In just 8 months, Bush gets the whole world back to hating us again. He withdraws from the Kyoto agreement, walks us out of the Durban conference on racism, insists on restarting the arms race -- you name it, and Baby Bush has blown it all.

The Senators and Congressmen tonight broke out in a spontaneous version of ?God Bless America.? They?re not a bad group of singers!

Yes, God, please do bless us.

Many families have been devastated tonight. This just is not right. They did not deserve to die. If someone did this to get back at Bush, then they did so by killing thousands of people who DID NOT VOTE for him! Boston, New York, DC, and the planes? destination of California -- these were places that voted AGAINST Bush!

Why kill them? Why kill anyone? Such insanity?

Yours,

Michael Moore
Golly, theer are so many inaccuracies in your post, it will be hard to deal with them all. But I will address a few.

Osama bin Laden is not just "some guy living in a tent" as you say. He is the head of a powerful terrorist group that is part of a network of terrorist groups dedicated to the loss of human life. He is very capable of orchestrating this attack.

The reason you haven't heard any inkly of thsis being a "timothy mcveigh" type of thing is because at this pont, we know it isn't. American intelligence has intercepted messages by Bin Laden's associates in which they said they "hit their targets". This morning, we even have suspects in mind. they found flight logs, knives and other things in their cars that indicate they were involved. One was a pilot. Make no mistake, this was perpetrated by anti-American forces.

And yes, you would find 4 terrorist willing to die for their cause. they are told that to die for their religion in such a manner makes them heros.

Also, you failed to mention that the reason we left the Racism conference was because of very strong language in which our allie, Israel, was considered an "apartheid" state. We were correct to leave.

Also, Bush has done no such thing as "restarting the arms race". He simply wants to install an anti-missile defense. Key word: DEFENSE, which does not mean OFFENSE. And in case you don't know, Putin from Russia has agreed to negotiations with Bush on this.
 
Well, we can install a missile defense shield, but it will take a long time to build, with unproven technology. We don't even know if it is possible to make!

Even if we did have one in place, the shield would not have helped us here. These were planes, not missiles. And if it could have, then it is no longer a wholly defense shield, but one capable of offense as well. That is why many nations do have reservations about it--not the idea of defense, but fear it will be capable of offensives.

Melon

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How long must we sing this song?!
 
Danospano- not only does Bin Laden not live in a tent, he's very wealthy, I think he's a billionaire. That's how he funds these missions. He has devoted his fortune to our destruction.

Ivan- America ususally goes to 'not their business' places because someone asked them to. We don't want to go you know, we need the money more here at home, and our men and women in uniform would be safer if we stayed home(unless terrorists attack that is) but unfortunately the US has become the 'world's policeman' and is expected in certain situations, as is the UN.

ALSO: Even if America's gov't does stick its nose in, was that the fault of the innocent people on those planes and working in those buildings??!!
 
I have to agree with Michael.
The people who have been killed my the American bombs in Kossovo, Vietnam and Iraq were innocent. Just like the people who were going to their jobs in Manhattan yesterday. INNOCENT.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not an 'eye for an eye' supporter. Terorists are fanatics, madmen, nobody needs them. It's just that I feel that this is the time for the Americans to actually start seeing what's going on outside their country and understand what their goverments have done to thousands of children in the Middle East or Yugoslavia. Yesterday's news showed that this can happen to you too.

It's a horrible tragedy and I'm so afraid that it will affect all of us somehow in the future, Americans, Europeans, Canadians, Africans... I don't mean WW3. I mean the change in our lives. Even worse! In the name of freedom and democracy, the authorities will take away our freedom by putting us in big cell, safe and protected from all kinds of terrorists.

This has to stop now, before it's too late.
 
What I do know is that all day long I have heard everything about this bin Laden guy except this one fact -- WE created the monster known as Osama bin Laden!

Nobody wants to admit that the United States created this monster and gave him the money and training to do crazy shit like this.

We have orphaned so many children, tens of thousands around the world, with our taxpayer-funded terrorism (in Chile, in Vietnam, in Gaza, in Salvador) that I suppose we shouldn?t be too surprised when those orphans grow up and are a little whacked in the head from the horror we have helped cause.

That would mean we would have to admit the "Flawless United States" actually did something bad and is responsible for more senseless acts of violence against civillians than most people could imagine.

From the first minutes of today?s events, I never heard that possibility suggested. Why is that?

We are unwilling to chanllenge the popular notion of United State Infallibility.

Will we ever get to the point that we realize we will be more secure when the rest of the world isn?t living in poverty so we can have nice running shoes?

That would be too inconvient.
rolleyes.gif


In just 8 months, Bush gets the whole world back to hating us again. He withdraws from the Kyoto agreement, walks us out of the Durban conference on racism, insists on restarting the arms race -- you name it, and Baby Bush has blown it all.

We don't care what we do out of self-interest, but act surprised and amazed when it comes back to bite us in the ass.

See: principle of United State Infallibility
 
United states also were responsible for some of the Crimes in former Yougoslavia
BOMBING INNOCENT PEOPLE , LITTLE CHILDREN IN HOSPITALS , MAKENG NEW JAILS FOR PALESTINIANS ON THEIR OWN TERRITORY
AND THEN SEND ALL THEIR JUSTICE ON ONE man from Serbia , wat about so called chechnya press conferences which were held in USA ,
now american citizens will understand feelings of people in Moscow , Budenovsk where innocent people were killed
it is time to destroy all these gangs using
Russian expirience + Usa , China , europe power
To find all guilty terrorists , organisations
 
You know, Danospano, the U.S. did make itself a target for massive terrorism, but not for the reasons you speak of.

We are hated by criminals and terrorists world-wide because of our commitment to freedom.

And I would much prefer to be the enemies of evil men than be so weak and cowardly that we pose them no threat.


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- Achtung Bubba
September, streets capsizing,
Spilling over, down the drain


"You know, by God, I actually pity those poor bastards we're goin' up against. By God, I do. We're not just gonna shoot the bastards, we're going to cut out their living guts and use them to grease the treads of our tanks. We're going to murder those lousy...bastards by the bushel."
from the film Patton
 
Originally posted by IvanClaytonJnr:
I post garbage. I am not from here.

eek.gif




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Catch the mouse
Squash his head
Put him in the pot
 
I live in the Uk we are used to bombs and killings in the name of stupid causes. I must say though the incidents in the US have even shocked me who is used to bombs and killings on a daily basis for the last 30 years.

Lets first remember that Afganistan is one of the pooriest contries in the World and the people who carried out these attacks do not represent the majority of the country. Killing inocent people in Kabal makes the west as bad as Osama bin Laden, who is an exiled member of the Saudi royal family and very, very rich.

My first action would be to find out which bank his funds are in and freeze its assests via the UN and put economic sanctions against the country where that bank is based.

The problems the US have around the world are due to years of poor foreign policy not just the last eight months of Bush. The west, Russia and China now need to come together to forma united force against these countries that harbor these organisations.

I also think Isreal need to be brought under some sort of control as they are the country that could bring the world to war. Remember WW 1 and how the world was brought to war because of the death of a Archduke Ferdinand, liittle actions can cause big consequences.
 
We are hated by criminals and terrorists world-wide because of our commitment to freedom

I see you bought the PR BS.

How is paying for the genocide of Israel a commitment to freedom?

How is the financing and training death squads a commitment to freedom?

How is overthrowing democratically elected governments and replacing them with millitary dictators a commitment to freedom?

How is allowing U.S corporations to commit untold human rights abuses a commitment to freedom?

How is persuing $300 million in business deals days after the Tieneman Square Massacre a commitment to freedom?

How is training and finacing terrorists like Osama Bin Laden a commitment to freedom?
 
In order...

I didn't know we were paying for the genocide of one of our closest allies.

We need so-called "death squads" to protect our own interests from people that made their presence know yesterday.

We overthrow governments because those governments are a threat to our national security.

I didn't know that corporations were committing untold human rights violations, and I certainly didn't know that was the reason we are so hated by terrorists--the reason terrorists killed over ten thousands civilians.

Nor did I know our trade agreements with China (which I disagree with, because of Tienemen Square) was the reason for the attack yesterday.

And the reason we trained terrorists was to destroy our enemies.


Our enemies are not nations that simply disagree with our way of life, that simply want to live and let live. They have repeatedly, publically, and passionately proclaimed their pursuit of the destruction of the United States of America.

The reason we sometimes take extreme military measures is that it's the only way to deal with these hardened enemies.

And the reason they are our enemies in the first place, the reason they hate us so, is because we are the Great Experiment -- we proclaim the cause of freedom.


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- Achtung Bubba
September, streets capsizing,
Spilling over, down the drain


"You know, by God, I actually pity those poor bastards we're goin' up against. By God, I do. We're not just gonna shoot the bastards, we're going to cut out their living guts and use them to grease the treads of our tanks. We're going to murder those lousy...bastards by the bushel."
from the film Patton
 
I just want to make sure I'm understanding everybody. IvanClayton and Sledgehammer, you guys are saying this attack is deserved and is a good thing because it will open the eyes of Americans to the attrocities they've been commiting. Is that what you're saying?
 
Originally posted by Spiral_Staircase:
I just want to make sure I'm understanding everybody. IvanClayton and Sledgehammer, you guys are saying this attack is deserved and is a good thing because it will open the eyes of Americans to the attrocities they've been commiting. Is that what you're saying?
I understand it that way, also.

[This message has been edited by 80sU2isBest (edited 09-12-2001).]
 
Originally posted by Achtung Bubba:
In order...

I didn't know we were paying for the genocide of one of our closest allies.

We need so-called "death squads" to protect our own interests from people that made their presence know yesterday.

We overthrow governments because those governments are a threat to our national security.

I didn't know that corporations were committing untold human rights violations, and I certainly didn't know that was the reason we are so hated by terrorists--the reason terrorists killed over ten thousands civilians.

Nor did I know our trade agreements with China (which I disagree with, because of Tienemen Square) was the reason for the attack yesterday.

And the reason we trained terrorists was to destroy our enemies.


Our enemies are not nations that simply disagree with our way of life, that simply want to live and let live. They have repeatedly, publically, and passionately proclaimed their pursuit of the destruction of the United States of America.

The reason we sometimes take extreme military measures is that it's the only way to deal with these hardened enemies.

And the reason they are our enemies in the first place, the reason they hate us so, is because we are the Great Experiment -- we proclaim the cause of freedom.



Achtung Bubba,

That's the problem: you are not informed about a lot of stuff.

I think DoctorGonzo was referring to the "genocide" of Palestinians by the Israeli government. I wouldn't call it genocide myself, but very repressive indeed.

They are death-squads because that's what they have done and will continue to do in El Salvador (El Mozote), Vietnam (Operation Phoenix), and Chile (Pinochet) to name a few. Keep in mind that when the PR machine says we are protecting "our interests" they usually mean economic (i.e. corporate) interests.

As for indifference to and sometimes participation in human rights violations by U.S. corporations there are many examples (e.g. Shell in Africa, United Fruit in Guatemala, ITT in Chile). I wouldn't say that these types of actions were THE reason why yesterday's tragedy occurred but they certainly add to the anti-American sentiment.

We train terrorists (it is difficult to think that you seem to write that without any reservations) to kill our enemies but more often than not that involves killing innocent civilians in other countries.

I totally agree with DoctorGonzo. I believe yesterday's tragedy was very unfortunate but instead of just asking for blood the American public needs to start questioning our foreign policy which I think contributes to this anti-American action.




[This message has been edited by radiodivision (edited 09-12-2001).]
 
Since I started this thread, let me explain some thing I should have included in my original email, but due to university classes I was rushing to actually get it on the listserve.
First, like Doctor Gonzo said, I'm not Michael Moore. My name is Dan and I simply was posting Michael Moore's response to this tragedy. I failed to realize that many of you didn't know who Michael Moore is, so I apologize for that confusion.
Second, while I agree that Bush isn't solely to blame for this incident, his administration which is for the most part a continuation of his father's administration (1989-1992) is widely hated in the Middle East. This goes back to the 1980's when W.'s father served as VP under Reagan. I think if you read between the lines of Moore's comment you'd realize that he isn't using W. Bush as a scapegoat, but rather a symbol of America's attitude toward the rest of the world.
Third, we as a world know only want our government WANTS us to know. I urge everyone American and foriegn to be highly skeptical of what you hear on the American Broadcast media (ABC, NBC, CBS, CNN, etc). These organizations are more or less public relation agents for the US government and only report what's in the best interest of the the american elite. If you want a contrasting opinion I suggest visiting www.indymedia.org They usually have an accurate report on worldwide news stories...
 
thanks for clarifying, sledge. Sorry if I jumped to conclusions about you (I think I did). I think I understand where you are coming from. I don't think I totally agree, but your is a reasonable point of view. Again, thanks for making things clear.
 
You had me going there for a minute Dano, I was looking for the quotation marks, none? Danospano IS Michael Moore!!!
I agree with him "it doesn't have to be like this"
Thanks for the post.
 
Originally posted by Achtung Bubba:
In order...

I didn't know we were paying for the genocide of one of our closest allies.

I don't quite comprehend that statement made either.

We need so-called "death squads" to protect our own interests from people that made their presence know yesterday.

I highly disagree, because all of our "interests" since the end of World War II have not been "defense," but "economic interests!" There are more nations we ruined during the Cold War than I can count, with some of the most horrendous being:

1) Guatemala - we destroyed their "leftist" democratic government in the 1980s at the beheast of an American fruit company.

2) Vietnam - we only got involved at the beheast of the South Vietnamese dictator who knew he was going to lose the national election to communist Ho Chi Minh. We spent over a decade fighting to save a despot the people didn't want anyway.

3) Iraq - the official reason was to liberate Kuwait. The recently declassified actual reason was at the beheast of the American oil industries, who saw their supply threatened.

4) Chile - we overthrew a "leftist" elected president in 1973, and helped to install General Pinochet.

The U.S. surely did not deserve such a horrendous attack and I'm not trying to justify it. The people and governments responsible need to be shown their place. However, I am merely showing examples of why your statement regarding the necessity of "death squads" is wrong.

We overthrow governments because those governments are a threat to our national security.

See above.

I didn't know that corporations were committing untold human rights violations, and I certainly didn't know that was the reason we are so hated by terrorists--the reason terrorists killed over ten thousands civilians.

Well, corporations are, and they do incite anger. However, I do not believe this is the reason why terrorists are striking us, so I agree with you on this one.

Nor did I know our trade agreements with China (which I disagree with, because of Tienemen Square) was the reason for the attack yesterday.

I agree with you here as well.

And the reason we trained terrorists was to destroy our enemies.

This is true as well, but we have paid the price for this foolish decision. While the U.S. thought they were using the terrorists to destroy their enemies, they were instead using us to destroy their own enemies, including us.

We have paid this price with the creation of militias in the 1980s, the training and funding of bin Laden against the Soviets in Afghanistan in the 1980s, and the funding and armament of Iraq during the 1980s during the seven year Iran-Iraq War. It is my hope we will learn from these mistakes in history and not build the blocks for future terrorism! Our next steps are very important.

Our enemies are not nations that simply disagree with our way of life, that simply want to live and let live. They have repeatedly, publically, and passionately proclaimed their pursuit of the destruction of the United States of America.

Often, it is just plain policy dispute. Hamas, for instance, stated that, in this experience, they hope the U.S. will not unilaterally take Israel's side in every instance. I don't think we should cave in, but I think it is imperative that we reevaluate our positions regarding diplomacy as part of a greater solution.

The reason we sometimes take extreme military measures is that it's the only way to deal with these hardened enemies.

Yes, sometimes it is necessary, and it looks like it might have to be in this situation. I pray that our military strikes are not overexcessive, though.

And the reason they are our enemies in the first place, the reason they hate us so, is because we are the Great Experiment -- we proclaim the cause of freedom.

I think that's silly. No one is going to hate us because of our causes of freedom. They hate us for what they perceive as foreign policy blunders, and, sometimes, they are correct in pointing them out. Did you know, for instance, that much of the Palestinian anger towards Israel arose because Arabs were forced from their land to make way for the new Jewish settlers? They did not recieve payment for this land either! Unfortunately, the U.S. often takes the heat for their anger against Israel.

Again, I'm not here to justify what has happened...only to point out possible deep-seated motives for terrorism. I hope we can both put the terrorists and their supporting governments in their place, along with also learning how to prevent them altogether. Often, admitting wrongs and changing ways is far harder than building a missile shield, but, sometimes, it is more effective.

Melon

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How long must we sing this song?!
 
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