Achtung over The Joshua Tree?

[the tourist]

Better musical structure? I don't understand.

I Still Haven't Found What I'm Looking For is just
A B A B A B all the way through.
Compare it to Until The End Of The World, it goes
A A solo B
The song doesn't even have a chorus. Think of Zoo Station and Mysterious Ways, in these songs the electric guitar is used for rhythms instead of melody.
I don't agree at all. Achtung Baby is a ground-breakingly amazing record.
So is Joshua Tree, but it's just not as good. And in terms of musical structure, not at all.

When he says "until the end of the world" or "til the end of the world", that is the chorus.

However, I would venture to put forth right back that there is a verse, chorus, verse, chorus, bridge, chours on One. Where is the chorus on Exit? Just wondering.

 

[the tourist]

Did The Goo Goo Girls ever cover it (scary thought) because i have friends who think U2 stole All i Want Is you from Bellfire.

No, the Goo Goo Dolls didn't cover One.

 

[AtomicBono]

Achtung and POP over JT

That's what I'm talkin' about.

Whether people recognize One or not it's still a brilliant song...

How many people do you think would recognize Acrobat if you played it for them? Or Running to Stand Still?

 

[the tourist]

That's what I'm talkin' about.

Whether people recognize One or not it's still a brilliant song...

How many people do you think would recognize Acrobat if you played it for them? Or Running to Stand Still?

You have a good point. But a lot of people on here say it's U2's definitive song. If a band's definitive song isn't recognized by quite a few people who have heard the band's music before, I don't think it's the band's definitive song. That would be Where The Streets Have No Name, Sunday Bloody Sunday, With Or Without You, New Year's Day, or Pride. Or even nowadays Beautiful Day.

 

[AtomicBono]

You have a good point. But a lot of people on here say it's U2's definitive song. If a band's definitive song isn't recognized by quite a few people who have heard the band's music before, I don't think it's the band's definitive song. That would be Where The Streets Have No Name, Sunday Bloody Sunday, With Or Without You, New Year's Day, or Pride. Or even nowadays Beautiful Day.

with my generation U2's definitive song is Vertigo

it's sad because people realize U2 is "really old" yet they don't seem to realize U2 has other songs than "that one from the iPod commercial."

I think in the future One will be as highly regarded as songs like Imagine, Stairway to Heaven, ect. But I'm probably wrong and st00pid...for me though it is the greatest song ever written. Streets is second. Hence my album ratings...except for Pop which randomly decided it was better than both AB and JT

 

[starvinmarvin]

Slowly, ever so slowly, I have come to prefer Achtung.....

 

[the tourist]

I used to like Achtung Baby better. But I don't think I'd ever fully appreciated The Joshua Tree.

 

[TheQuiet1]

Achtung wins points from me for consistancy. It's extremely hard for me to skip through it, because there are so many good/great ones I know I'll miss.

Exactly.

For me, JT has far too many songs on it that don't do anything. By contrast AB is far more lively, even in exploration of bleak themes and personally, I prefer that. But each to their own.

In fact, what the tourist says could probably be full applied to myself also.

 

[Pero]

Let's compare:
Streets and WOWY are the greatest songs from JT.(with exceptions)
One, EBTTRT, UTEOTW, Fly, MW, Acrobat and Love is blindness are better.
Joshua has one weak spot: TRIP THROUGH YOUR WIRES
Achtung has half of a weak spot: SO CRUEL

THE CONCLUSSION:
ACHTUNG IS BETTER.

 

[Achtung Joshua!]

EBTTRT is dumb (music and lyrics)
MW is a joke
WGRYWH gets boring pretty quick
So Cruel could've been good but...
One is so over-rated it's not funny (simple and predictable)
So AB is better than TJT...fuck no. But don't get me wrong AB is their 4th best album.

 

[amerrydeath]

Sometimes I think there should just be an all-out war between JT and AB lovers.

 

[Cooper2000]

Let's compare:
Streets and WOWY are the greatest songs from JT.(with exceptions)
One, EBTTRT, UTEOTW, Fly, MW, Acrobat and Love is blindness are better.
Joshua has one weak spot: TRIP THROUGH YOUR WIRES
Achtung has half of a weak spot: SO CRUEL

THE CONCLUSSION:
ACHTUNG IS BETTER.

I honestly don't know how you can possibly say that EBTTRT, MW, Acrobat, LIB ect. are better than WOWY, or Streets ect. It boggles my mind. I really like One and The Fly, but still.

 

[Yahweh]

Everybody in this thread I think it must be said is stuck in the past.

I am glad U2 isnt so stuck in the past as a band though or they would be as sad as The Rolling Stones.

Two great albums and this thread is beating a dead horse that has been dead for 15 years.

 

[Zoots]

Two great albums and this thread is beating a dead horse that has been dead for 15 years.

It doesn't matter anymore, does it? It's the age of How To Dismant...zzzzzzzzz

 

[Snowlock]

So, the argument is basically "epic" vs. "innovative".

I prefer AB.

I don't think many from either camp would claim the opposing album isn't epic.

Like another poster said, JT can stand among the best albums ever made (and does on any reputable "best ever" polls). AB is just a great effort; not a cultural phenom.

Interestingly, I was watching VH1's "I Love 1987". For those who don't know it; it's a clip/commentary show about a particular year. They devoted the last segment of the show to the Joshua Tree and the revolution it was in that year. Unfortunately the commentators on the segment included such rock "luminaries" as Sammy Hagar, Hootie (of hootie & the blowfish) and Rob freaking Thomas of Crapbox 20.

 

[Hallucination]

Achtung Baby is much better in my opinion. There's more depth to it, more feeling. It conjures up more emotion and more variety of emotion in the listener. It flows better as an album. Both albums are great but for me Achtung Baby is the greatest album of all time. Joshua Tree is merely the 3rd best U2 album(Achtung & HTDAAB are better) and in fact lately I've been pondering over the idea that Boy may even be better than Joshua Tree. One thing that Joshua Tree has that no other album can boast though, is that it's home to Where the Streets Have No Name.

The reason why I think Joshua Tree is so highly regarded by the geneal public in comparison to Achtung is not only because it's an amazing album but because it came out before Achtung Baby. To the the public U2 had already released their masterpiece, their pinnacle. Nobody wanted to accept the fact that they may have actually surpassed it one(R&H aside) album later on Achtung Baby. I think HTDAAB sufers in the same way Achtung Baby does because of the success of U2's "comeback" album ATYCLB. Nobody wants to aknowledge that U2 is actually better this time around than they were in 2000.

Anyways those are just a few of my thoughts on the matter.

 

[Snowlock]

It doesn't matter anymore, does it? It's the age of How To Dismant...zzzzzzzzz

Maybe that is the better argument. I'd personally place Atomic Bomb in third after AB & JT. ATYCLB is the snoozer; Pop's a conformist, rushed, hookless, mess with no identity; and Zooropa is just a Maxi-Single for Stay

Atomic Bomb is nearly as epic as AB & JT and in quite a few instances as groundbreaking. Vocally, Bono's as strong as he's ever been and Larry especially really shines. The thing that hold the album back for me is Edge; which is just so bizarre for me (a huge Edge fan) to think. But I feel he pulled it back too much from where the album was going to go. Songs like Miracle Drug, COBL, ABOY & Yahweh are so right on the verge. But they're either missing a guitar solo, have too much piano/keyboards muddying the waters or lack a great lyrical hook.

Regarding AYCLB & Pop, that sounded way harsher than it should have especially considering ATYCLB is my 4th favorite and there are some excellent songs on Pop.

 

[ultraviolet353]

I think JT and AB are forever joined at the hip. JT is a masterpiece--pure and simple--it has no time, no place. What happened after JT was overexposure, the backlash of R&H, and a long absence. Most bands would have crumbled--U2 almost did.

AB is a masterpiece IMO, but what makes it even more remarkable is that is the follow-up (pure studio effort) to JT. With AB, they just didn't make another album, they went to another planet (musically speaking).

Since AB came out, it has always been at the top of my list, but recently I haven't been so sure. I think fans who rate AB #1 (like myself) view it contextually--AB has a real resoance for me as far as time, place, and personal emotional attachment are concerned.

Having said that, I have come to a place where I really believe that JT is the definitive U2 record. This is the record that would be put in a time capsule. At the end of the day I really do not know what my favorite record is (I go back and forth betwenn JT, AB and POP--yes, POP! I think in my mind these two records are inextricably related.

 

[Zoots]

Zooropa is just a Maxi-Single for Stay

Oooh... you're gonna get into trouble for that one!

 

[namkcuR]

Pop's a conformist, rushed, hookless, mess with no identity

No hooks? Firstly, there are some, albiet not as many as other U2 records, hooks. Secondly, a song doesn't need a hook to be good or even great. And I hate the idea that Pop was conforming to something. There might be one or two songs on the record that tie in to the whole Prodigy thing style-wise, but that is IT. It has an identity, that identity is darkness, the questioning of the existance of God and why shit happens in life. Its identity is that of a person whose life is a mess and going down the tubes, one who has no friends. That kind of thing. Rushed....well, ok, that one is correct. They had to rush the record because they made the mistake of commiting to tour dates before the record was done.

and Zooropa is just a Maxi-Single for Stay

Longest single I've ever seen, then. Zooropa, Babyface, Numb, Lemon, Daddy's Gonna Pay, The First Time, and Dirty Day deserve much more than B-Side status though.

Vocally, Bono's as strong as he's ever been

Is this a joke? As strong as he's been on any record post-AB? Quite possibly. Stronger than he was on AB? Absolutely not. Stronger than he was on JT/R&H? That's a big HELL NO. Bono's voice was incredible, it weakened significantly, it is now a great deal improved from what it was but by no means what it was in its prime.

 

[Zoots]

No hooks? Firstly, there are some, albiet not as many as other U2 records, hooks. Secondly, a song doesn't need a hook to be good or even great. And I hate the idea that Pop was conforming to something. There might be one or two songs on the record that tie in to the whole Prodigy thing style-wise, but that is IT. It has an identity, that identity is darkness, the questioning of the existance of God and why shit happens in life. Its identity is that of a person whose life is a mess and going down the tubes, one who has no friends. That kind of thing. Rushed....well, ok, that one is correct. They had to rush the record because they made the mistake of commiting to tour dates before the record was done.

You always have the right words to defend Pop!

 

[Snowlock]

No hooks? Firstly, there are some, albiet not as many as other U2 records, hooks. Secondly, a song doesn't need a hook to be good or even great.

Your opinion of course. I like U2 with hook laden riffs and lyrics. My opinion.

And I hate the idea that Pop was conforming to something. There might be one or two songs on the record that tie in to the whole Prodigy thing style-wise, but that is IT.

Prodigy, Garbage, Cake, Radiohead, Beck, Nine Inch Nails, Ministry, et al...

It has an identity

‘It’s very difficult to pin this record down. It’s not got any identity because it’s got so many.’

Edge in Propaganda 25

that identity is darkness, the questioning of the existance of God and why shit happens in life. Its identity is that of a person whose life is a mess and going down the tubes, one who has no friends. That kind of thing.

That interpretation bothers me. While U2 has definately questioned organized religion and especially the strife differing views between religions can cause; I don't believe they have questioned the existence of God. "Looking for to fill that God-Shaped Hole"; yes, I know the line, but there is so much else before and after Pop that seems to contradict a disbelief in God. Plus Pop strikes me as a record which such an ironic twist to it that they are implying the opposite of what they are saying.

As to themes of lonliness, I think that's up to interpretation too. Songs like Discotheque, Playboy Mansion, Velvet Dress, and Miami don't seem to have much to do with solitude.

Longest single I've ever seen, then. Zooropa, Babyface, Numb, Lemon, Daddy's Gonna Pay, The First Time, and Dirty Day deserve much more than B-Side status though.

Not to me. Zooropa (title track)... maybe. I find it odd (and I'm not saying you're one of them; just in general) when people who like The First Time dislike One Step Closer. Very similar songs to me; and yeah; both b-sides. For me, Dirty Day is improved by a remix (Bitter Kiss), so I'd definately give the album version B-Side status. Numb just isn't to my personal taste, Lemon sounds more Brian Eno than U2, and for me, (just for me! If you like it, more power to you) Babyface and Daddy's Gonna Pay are so distasteful as to barely warrant recognition.

Is this a joke? As strong as he's been on any record post-AB? Quite possibly. Stronger than he was on AB? Absolutely not. Stronger than he was on JT/R&H? That's a big HELL NO. Bono's voice was incredible, it weakened significantly, it is now a great deal improved from what it was but by no means what it was in its prime.

:

I didn't say stronger than. I said "as strong as" and no; that's no joke. He doesn't have the same voice than he did. He's definately lost some of his depth; but I think he's increased his range. I've listened to the Vertigo shows where he's doing Pavarotti's aria in Miss Sarajevo as well as the vocal heights he's reached in songs like Native Son and Electrical Storm and I'd have to say he's improved enough in some aspects that for me make his voice as good as the days during the Joshua Tree.

 

[starvinmarvin]

Watch out, Snowlock - you've unleashed the rabid Pop hyenas....

All kidding aside, I agree with all of your points, especially about "interpreting" Pop. I'm not so sure that many of the so-called "analyses" of Pop that get bandied around here like the gospel actually hold up under scrutiny. I too like my U2 music to have hooks, and there aren't meant to be found on Pop. An I'm not sure if the lack of hooks are purposeful or accidental on the band's part. Judging by most of the band's other material, I'm leaning towards the latter.

I also agree that Bono's voice is great now. His voice isn't quite as powerful as on JT, but singing isn't just about power, it's about control too, and he's got it in spades now. Just listen to some of the notes he hits on Miracle Drug, or on Miss Sarajevo, as Snowlock pointed out. I love the SOUND of his voice now better than any other period. It's a little raspy around the edges at times, but that gives it character.

 

[Snowlock]

Watch out, Snowlock - you've unleashed the rabid Pop hyenas....

LOL! I guess!

I've read references on here in various threads about people who so vehemently defend this record. I even reread the original post on pop right after I posted it and decided to edit it because I thought it was too harsh. But namkucR must've missed that point.

It's a little raspy around the edges at times, but that gives it character.

Hell yeah! That rasp he developed... I first noticed it during the Slane DVD and I really quite like it. I definately don't miss that kermit the frog voice he occassionally would briefly lapse into during the JT era.

 

[God Part III]

Let's do it this way then:

Where The Streets Have No Name > Zoo Station
I Still Haven't Found What I'm Looking For < Even Better Than The Real Thing
With Or Without You < One
Bullet The Blue Sky < Until The End Of The World
Running To Stand Still > Who's Gonna Ride Your Wild Horses
Red Hill Mining Town > So Cruel
In God's Country < The Fly
Trip Through Your Wires < Mysterious Ways
One Tree Hill > Tryin' To Throw Your Arms Around The World
Exit < Ultraviolet (Light My Way)
Mothers Of The Disappeared < Acrobat

Love Is Blindness counts as one in favour of Achtung Baby because it's so damn good and better than nearly every song on The Joshua Tree.

The Joshua Tree: 4
Achtung Baby: 7-8

 

[God Part III]

And just for the sake of it:

Where The Streets Have No Name < Zooropa
I Still Haven't Found What I'm Looking For > Babyface
With Or Without You > Numb
Bullet The Blue Sky < Lemon
Running To Stand Still > Stay (Faraway, So Close)
Red Hill Mining Town < Daddy's Gonna Pay For Your Crashed Car
In God's Country < Some Days Are Better Than Others
Trip Through Your Wires < The First Time
One Tree Hill < Dirty Day
Exit < The Wanderer

Mothers Of The Disappeared certainly doesn't give a vote in favor of The Joshua Tree, because it just isn't good enough.

The Joshua Tree: 3
Zooropa: 7

 

[starvinmarvin]

here's my comparison between JT and AB:

Where The Streets Have No Name > Zoo Station
I Still Haven't Found What I'm Looking For > Even Better Than The Real Thing
With Or Without You > One
Bullet The Blue Sky < Until The End Of The World
Running To Stand Still < Who's Gonna Ride Your Wild Horses
Red Hill Mining Town > So Cruel
In God's Country < The Fly
Trip Through Your Wires < Mysterious Ways
One Tree Hill > Tryin' To Throw Your Arms Around The World
Exit < Ultraviolet (Light My Way)
Mothers Of The Disappeared < Acrobat

Love Is Blindness counts as a minus because the album version is the most miserable piece of pseudo Latino garabage they've ever put on record. It sounds better live though...

The Joshua Tree: 5
Achtung Baby: 5

Its a tie.

 

[starvinmarvin]

Zooropa vs JT:

Where The Streets Have No Name > Zooropa
I Still Haven't Found What I'm Looking For > Babyface
With Or Without You > Numb
Bullet The Blue Sky < Lemon
Running To Stand Still < Stay (Faraway, So Close)
Red Hill Mining Town > Daddy's Gonna Pay For Your Crashed Car
In God's Country > Some Days Are Better Than Others
Trip Through Your Wires < The First Time
One Tree Hill > Dirty Day
Exit < The Wanderer

Mothers Of The Disappeared gives JT an extra vote because it is a beautifully moving tribute to the mothers of Chile who lost their sons.

The Joshua Tree: 7
Zooropa: 4

 

[Achtung Joshua!]

This thread is getting just plain stupid now
What really should be done is a song versus song comparison by the general public and guess which album would win... I don't need to state the obvious do I?

 

[Cooper2000]

Let's do it this way then:

Where The Streets Have No Name > Zoo Station
I Still Haven't Found What I'm Looking For < Even Better Than The Real Thing
With Or Without You < One
Bullet The Blue Sky < Until The End Of The World
Running To Stand Still > Who's Gonna Ride Your Wild Horses
Red Hill Mining Town > So Cruel
In God's Country < The Fly
Trip Through Your Wires < Mysterious Ways
One Tree Hill > Tryin' To Throw Your Arms Around The World
Exit < Ultraviolet (Light My Way)
Mothers Of The Disappeared < Acrobat

Love Is Blindness counts as one in favour of Achtung Baby because it's so damn good and better than nearly every song on The Joshua Tree.

The Joshua Tree: 4
Achtung Baby: 7-8

Where The Streets Have No Name > Zoo Station
I Still Haven't Found What I'm Looking For > Even Better Than The Real Thing (EBTTRT is catchy, but not a comparison)
With Or Without You > One (One is good, overrated and definitly not comparable to WOWY IMHO)
Bullet The Blue Sky = Until The End Of The World
Running To Stand Still > Who's Gonna Ride Your Wild Horses
Red Hill Mining Town > So Cruel
In God's Country < The Fly
Trip Through Your Wires < Mysterious Ways
One Tree Hill > Tryin' To Throw Your Arms Around The World
Exit > Ultraviolet (Light My Way) (Exit is one of the best U2 songs ever.. its so dark and chilling)
Mothers Of The Disappeared < Acrobat

JT = 7
AB = 3 + 1 for LIB