You Lika' The Juice, eh?

[Headache in a Suitcase]

SAITAMA, Japan -- Fed up with its recent failures, the United States assembled a new program with a new plan.

The end result was all too familiar.

Greece used a sizzling stretch of shooting across the middle two quarters to turn a 12-point deficit into a 14-point lead, and beat the Americans 101-95 Friday in the semifinals of the FIBA World Championship.

"To lose any game is a shock to us," U.S. star Carmelo Anthony said. "We came in with the mentality to win the game and the gold medal."

Instead, the best Anthony can do now is add another bronze to his collection.

Greece (8-0) can earn a world title to go with the European championship it won in 2005 with a victory over either Spain or Argentina in Sunday's gold medal game. Those teams, also undefeated, met in Friday's second game.

"They played like a champion plays," U.S. forward Shane Battier said of Greece.

The Americans will have to wait at least two more years to remember what that feels like.

Done in again by their inept 3-point shooting -- and they weren't much better from the foul line -- the Americans will fall short of a championship in a major international tournament for the third straight time since winning gold at the 2000 Olympics.

The Greeks -- with no current NBA players on their roster -- danced in a circle at halfcourt after their victory.

"Big players play big games," said guard Theodoros Papaloukas, the MVP of the European final who had 12 assists Friday. "And today I think we played very good."

The U.S. (7-1) will return to the court Saturday against the loser of the Argentina-Spain game, hoping to match the bronze medal it left Athens with in 2004.

"Those guys are hurting," said USA Basketball managing director Jerry Colangelo, who was put in charge of the program after a sixth-place finish in the 2002 worlds preceded the disappointment in Athens. "It's probably a better thing we have to come back tomorrow and play again instead of sitting on this for two days."

Anthony scored 27 points for the Americans, who couldn't overcome their 32 percent shooting from 3-point range or 59 percent from the foul line. Dwyane Wade added 19 and LeBron James had 17, but the three U.S. captains were unable to make up for their disappointment from Athens.

Vassilis Spanoulis, bound for the Houston Rockets, scored 22 points for Greece. Mihalis Kakiouzis added 15 and 6-foot-10 Sofoklis Schortsianitis -- nicknamed "Baby Shaq" -- added 14, shooting 6-of-7.

"Basketball is not just about dribbling and shooting," said Greece coach Panagiotis Yannakis, who took a congratulatory call from Prime Minister Costas Karamanlis after the game. "You can come off the bench with a clear mind and give the best of your talent and that's what our players did today."

Continuously burning the Americans' poor defense against the pick-and-roll, the Greeks shot 63 percent (35-of-56) from the field and made 31 of 44 shots over the final three periods.

"We didn't make the right adjustments," U.S. center Chris Bosh said. "They ran the same play. We made it easy for them."

The U.S. hasn't even played for a world championship since winning the last of its three titles in Toronto in 1994. Mike Krzyzewski -- who was looking for gold after winning bronze with the 1990 team -- and a few American players walked to midcourt to congratulate the Greeks, while most of the U.S. roster quickly headed to the locker room.

The Americans, who put together a national team program this year for the first time, now will be forced to qualify for the 2008 Olympics next summer in the FIBA Americas tournament in Venezuela.

"This one hurts," said Colangelo, who assembled the team. "We had the gold medal as our goal and anything short is disappointing. We go back to work and get ready for qualifying next summer."

The U.S. seemed in control after Joe Johnson's 3-pointer gave the Americans a 33-21 lead with about 6½ minutes left in the second quarter. It was around then that James told his teammates on the bench: "They don't know what to do."

Well, they figured it out in a hurry.

Greece scored nine straight points, pulling within three on Theodoros Papaloukas' drive with 3:51 left and forcing Krzyzewski to call a timeout. Dwight Howard converted a three-point play, but the Greeks answered with a 13-2 surge, featuring eight points from Schortsianitis, to open a 43-38 lead and force Krzyzewski to call a second timeout.

Greece hit nine straight shots -- its only miss in the last 5 minutes was a heave from halfcourt as time expired -- and led 45-41 at halftime. The Greeks shot 56 percent (15-of-27) in the half.

The Americans were 2-of-10 from behind the arc -- after going 10-for-40 in their quarterfinal victory over Germany -- and trailed at the break for only the second time in the tournament. Italy had a nine-point cushion in a group play game.

Greece kept it up in the third quarter, hitting 14 of its 18 shots, including all four 3-pointers in the first 5 minutes. Kostas Tsartsaris' 3-pointer with 5:45 left in the period gave the Greeks a 65-51 lead -- the biggest deficit the U.S. faced in the tournament.

After shooting 4-of-12 in the first quarter, Greece was 25-of-33 (76 percent) in the second and third and led 77-65 heading to the final period.

"It seemed like they didn't miss the whole third quarter," Wade said.

Anthony, Wade and James combined for the first 18 U.S. points in the quarter, and the Americans eventually got as close as 95-91 on Kirk Hinrich's 3 with 36 seconds to play. But the U.S. missed its final two attempts from behind the arc, capping a 9-of-28 night.

disgusting


all this means now is that the mamba is gonna bring his tights to venezuela next year and jack up 50 shots a game, probably resulting in a win, but not really accomplishing anything.

GET A FUCKING SHOOTER!!


back to the drawing board...

 

[Hewson]

How many points did Rony Seikaly score?

 

[Chizip]

wheres coach K when you need him?

oh wait...

 

[thetitans2k]

This is so sad. But funny for me as a Canadian.

 

[speedracer]

How many points did Rony Seikaly score?

He didn't play, but Chris Chelios played 5 minutes and got whistled for 2 really hard fouls. He was a last-minute addition to the roster, as the Greece coaches thought they needed a tough guy.

 

[randhail]

I thought the team was made up of digustingly wealthly shipping heirs vying for the love of Paris Hilton.

 

[Canadiens1131]

Why is it any suprise that a team of spoiled brat NBA players had trouble with three-pointers (or even lost at the international level) at this point?

I really don't blame people who prefer college hoops over the glitzy, showboating pro league at the moment.

 

[Numb1075]

I've found the NBA unwatchable for a good 5-6 years now.

 

[phillyfan26]

go sixers

The NBA sucks, why would you pick NBA players? College is what it is all about.

 

[speedracer]

I didn't see the game, so all I have to go on is the box score and game report. That said, I don't think you can blame poor 3-point shooting too much for the game. Sure, it's an easier shot than in the NBA, but 3-point shooting is often a hot-and-cold thing; sometimes the team just doesn't have it.

However, the following passage from the writeup was revealing:

Continuously burning the Americans' poor defense against the pick-and-roll, the Greeks shot 63 percent (35-of-56) from the field and made 31 of 44 shots over the final three periods.

"We didn't make the right adjustments," U.S. center Chris Bosh said. "They ran the same play. We made it easy for them."

I looked up the box score, and Greece shot 27-for-38 from 2-point range. 71 percent. That's ridiculous. Isn't pick-and-roll defense something you learn in middle school?

 

[Headache in a Suitcase]

it's really not a very educated statement to say that college players would automaticly do better, or are better, or are better to watch.

the same type of player... pure athlete, diluted fundamental skill... that is celebrated in the NBA are celebrated in college... i.e. UConn.

this was yet another poorly constructed team of hype and flash over substance. the reputations of the "big three"... LeBron James, Carmello Anthony & Dwyane Wade... took a huge hit today, imo.

dwyane wade is the next michael jordan? please... michael jordan would never allow his team to lose to greece. plug jordan in his prime into the spot on this current team occupied by any of those three, and this team does not lose a game. period.


it's amazing to see how quickly american basketball has deteroirated into shit. the cocktail of sneaker companies, sportscenter, aau & hip hop culture has turned the game i love into a mess... at least here, in america, where it all began in the first place.

you could put together an american team that would dominate in the worlds. it is possible. you just have to not be blinded by "star" power and take guys who actually can play the game the way it's meant to be played.

i watched a bunch of the non american games on NBA TV over the past 2 weeks. and the laughing stock of the nba the past few years... the one man punch line, darko milicic, was more valuable and more effective than most of the guys on the american team. it was great to watch... players, even nba guys like dirk and pao, playing unselfishly, playing for the benefit of the team as opposed to the benefit of the scoresheet, and, low and behold, making jumpers.

the international 3-point line is an inch back from the american high school/college 3-point line... and we send a group of NBA players who, short of kirk hinrich, can't shoot. brilliant.

a guy i know who played at the school where i coach at now plays for benetton in the italian league. in the nba draft he was passed over for high school kids and athletic projects. in the italian league, he's the leading scorer (on a team with this season's #1 nba draft pick, andrea bargnani).

we've forgotten how to play in america. we've lost touch with the core of what's important to succeed in the game.

ugh... i'm pissed.

 

[Headache in a Suitcase]

Originally posted by speedracer I looked up the box score, and Greece shot 35-for-56 from 2-point range. 62.5 percent. That's ridiculous. Isn't pick-and-roll defense something you learn in middle school?

there's a bunch of different ways to defend the screen roll... be it jumping the screen, switching high, switching low, fighting through, what have you.

it's not overly difficult to defend, per say. but if guys aren't on the same page, and/or don't care, and/or are stupid, then, as simple as it is, it will destroy a team.

 

[speedracer]

there's a bunch of different ways to defend the screen roll... be it jumping the screen, switching high, switching low, fighting through, what have you.

it's not overly difficult to defend, per say. but if guys aren't on the same page, and/or don't care, and/or are stupid, then, as simple as it is, it will destroy a team.

Must be, because Mike Krzyzewski swears by man-to-man defense, and there's no way he could have skimped on pick-and-roll defense during practice.

 

[guill]

America could have killed the match in the 1st quarter but their 3-point shooters failed.
When Greece changed their game in the 2nd quarter, Americans seemed to be lost, it was amazing.

It's too difficult to create a team in a few weeks, the next Olympic team should be made of players from the same franchise.

Anthony
Rest of the team

 

[phillyfan26]

That D absolutely sucked. No one knew how to defend the lane. No one.

 

[namkcuR]

you could put together an american team that would dominate in the worlds. it is possible. you just have to not be blinded by "star" power and take guys who actually can play the game the way it's meant to be played.

Hey Headache, just for the sake of arguement, and so I can have a better overall understanding of your argeument here, what would be your ideal USA Roster?

 

[Headache in a Suitcase]

michael jordan, larry bird, magic johnson, patrick ewing, charles barkley...

this is the current roster, and without putting much thought into it, i added who i'd replace them with, if i could.. trying to replace the player with someone who plays the same position... and leaving out guys like shaq, kobe

LeBron James... keep
Antwan Jamison... replace with Adam Morrison
Elton Brand... replace with Kevin Garnett
Chris Paul... replace with Chauncey Billups
Carmelo Anthony... replace with Ray Allen
Chris Bosh... replace with Alonzo Mourning
Dwight Howard... replace with ben wallace... just kidding... keep or replace with Amare if healthy
Brad Miller... replace with Kevin Pittsnoggle... that's right.
Joe Johnson... replace with JJ Redick
Kirk Hinrich... keep
Shane Battier... keep
Dwyane Wade... replace with Michael Redd


so more or less i'd replace any shoot first guy... i.e. wade, carmello... guys who need to go 1-on-1 to be effective... with pure shooters allen and redd. the 1-on-1 isolation type game that flourishes in the NBA is effectively useless in the international game. it will work against certain teams, but eventually it will be exposed.

jamison and johnson are basicaly useless, so i'd replace them with young shooters.

bosh is also useless on this team, so i'd replace him with a veteran leader like mourning, who can do the limited role that bosh played a hell of a lot better than bosh.. i.e. play 5-10 minutes a game and block a few shots. no one does that better than Zo, 'cause at this point in his career he can only play a limited role, anyways. plus no one will F with him, and when you put together a group of ego's, you need a strong veteran presence that everyone respects to keep them all in line.

dwight howard can stay only if amare stoudamire isn't healthy. he fills the need at the 5... rebound, block some shots, get some cheap baskets, and he can run all day.

brad miller never saw the court, so why not replace him with a young big who can shoot from the outside. if you watched the other teams play, all their bigs can shoot. they bring some 18 year old kid off the bench to play 5 minutes, he's 7 feet tall, and be bangs threes better than our nba all stars. so why not take a roster spot that is never gonna be used anyway, give it to a young, hungry kid who's gonna be honored to just be there, and who can serve a purpose in the international game if needed. pittsnoggle came to mind, but there's a handful of other guys who could be plugged in here. this would be like the christian lattener spot on the 92' team... sure, they coulda taken shaq instead, or another veteran (isiah)... but why? they didn't need him, take a young big who can shoot instead and give him an experience he'll actually value.

getting garnett on board is obvious. elton brand is a very good player, in the international game you need your 4 to be able to play outside of the post... which no 4 does better than kevin garnett. plus garnett is an unselfish superstar, is a fiery S.O.B, and would be able to provide some veteran leadership.

paul for billups is obvious for me also. hinrich is a great player in the international game, because he spreads the ball, won't look shot first and can knock down the open three with consistancy. so is billups. paul's shot is suspect. any guard who can't shoot immediately gets removed from my team.

shane battier can stay or be replaced with a variety of other players... i.e. guys who don't do any one thing great but can do a variety of things well. the perfect role player.

lebron james on a team with unselfish shooters is the best player in the world. on a team with shoot first, isolation guys, he turns into a bystander. he stays on my team.

so my revised roster looks like this
1- billups, hinrich
2- ray allen, michael redd, jj redick
3- lebron james, shane battier, adam morrison
4- kevin garnett, young player
5- dwight howard or amare stoudamire, alonzo mourning

allen, redd & redick could all also play the 3, lebron and morrison could fill in at the 4, garnett could play the 5

this gives you a young team with a sprinkling of veteran leadership... a team that can shoot the lights out, has a formidable inside defensive presence, flexability to run out multiple lineups, and not a single 1-on-1 isolation type player.

obviously it would be hard to get every one to committ (esp. garnett) but this team would never lose. they still have the go to guys who are capable of dominating a game at any given moment (lebron, garnett), solid defenders (billups, mourning, howard, garnett, billups) and they will never lose a game because of lack of shooters.

oh, and they would be coached like a team. not like an all star team (i.e. cycling guys in and out, making sure no one's ego is hurt).

 

[guill]

Carmelo Anthony deserves to stay in the team USA, without him USA would have sunk deeper.

O'Neal should play the Olympics, he is the last legend.

 

[intedomine]

Don't the Yanks usually send half-arsed teams to these international basketball comps, like they do with the Olympics? Do they ever actually send their best possible squad to take on the world?

If so, I'm ecstatic they lost, cause that's what they deserve for underestimating the opposition. What pure arrogance.

Imagine if Brazil sent a 4th string side to a football World Cup. Imagine the outcry. Imagine if the Aussies sent the Tassie state team to the Ashes rather than the best Australian players. Would never happen!

The whole sport is a bit of a joke anyway. "For-tall-people-only"

 

[Headache in a Suitcase]

The whole sport is a bit of a joke anyway. "For-tall-people-only"

thanks for the intelligent, well thought out response.

 

[LMP]

The whole sport is a bit of a joke anyway. "For-tall-people-only"

Mario Kasun: 7'1"
Earl Boykins: 5'6"

do the math.

 

[namkcuR]

michael jordan, larry bird, magic johnson, patrick ewing, charles barkley...

this is the current roster, and without putting much thought into it, i added who i'd replace them with, if i could.. trying to replace the player with someone who plays the same position... and leaving out guys like shaq, kobe

LeBron James... keep
Antwan Jamison... replace with Adam Morrison
Elton Brand... replace with Kevin Garnett
Chris Paul... replace with Chauncey Billups
Carmelo Anthony... replace with Ray Allen
Chris Bosh... replace with Alonzo Mourning
Dwight Howard... replace with ben wallace... just kidding... keep or replace with Amare if healthy
Brad Miller... replace with Kevin Pittsnoggle... that's right.
Joe Johnson... replace with JJ Redick
Kirk Hinrich... keep
Shane Battier... keep
Dwyane Wade... replace with Michael Redd


so more or less i'd replace any shoot first guy... i.e. wade, carmello... guys who need to go 1-on-1 to be effective... with pure shooters allen and redd. the 1-on-1 isolation type game that flourishes in the NBA is effectively useless in the international game. it will work against certain teams, but eventually it will be exposed.

jamison and johnson are basicaly useless, so i'd replace them with young shooters.

bosh is also useless on this team, so i'd replace him with a veteran leader like mourning, who can do the limited role that bosh played a hell of a lot better than bosh.. i.e. play 5-10 minutes a game and block a few shots. no one does that better than Zo, 'cause at this point in his career he can only play a limited role, anyways. plus no one will F with him, and when you put together a group of ego's, you need a strong veteran presence that everyone respects to keep them all in line.

dwight howard can stay only if amare stoudamire isn't healthy. he fills the need at the 5... rebound, block some shots, get some cheap baskets, and he can run all day.

brad miller never saw the court, so why not replace him with a young big who can shoot from the outside. if you watched the other teams play, all their bigs can shoot. they bring some 18 year old kid off the bench to play 5 minutes, he's 7 feet tall, and be bangs threes better than our nba all stars. so why not take a roster spot that is never gonna be used anyway, give it to a young, hungry kid who's gonna be honored to just be there, and who can serve a purpose in the international game if needed. pittsnoggle came to mind, but there's a handful of other guys who could be plugged in here. this would be like the christian lattener spot on the 92' team... sure, they coulda taken shaq instead, or another veteran (isiah)... but why? they didn't need him, take a young big who can shoot instead and give him an experience he'll actually value.

getting garnett on board is obvious. elton brand is a very good player, in the international game you need your 4 to be able to play outside of the post... which no 4 does better than kevin garnett. plus garnett is an unselfish superstar, is a fiery S.O.B, and would be able to provide some veteran leadership.

paul for billups is obvious for me also. hinrich is a great player in the international game, because he spreads the ball, won't look shot first and can knock down the open three with consistancy. so is billups. paul's shot is suspect. any guard who can't shoot immediately gets removed from my team.

shane battier can stay or be replaced with a variety of other players... i.e. guys who don't do any one thing great but can do a variety of things well. the perfect role player.

lebron james on a team with unselfish shooters is the best player in the world. on a team with shoot first, isolation guys, he turns into a bystander. he stays on my team.

so my revised roster looks like this
1- billups, hinrich
2- ray allen, michael redd, jj redick
3- lebron james, shane battier, adam morrison
4- kevin garnett, young player
5- dwight howard or amare stoudamire, alonzo mourning

allen, redd & redick could all also play the 3, lebron and morrison could fill in at the 4, garnett could play the 5

this gives you a young team with a sprinkling of veteran leadership... a team that can shoot the lights out, has a formidable inside defensive presence, flexability to run out multiple lineups, and not a single 1-on-1 isolation type player.

obviously it would be hard to get every one to committ (esp. garnett) but this team would never lose. they still have the go to guys who are capable of dominating a game at any given moment (lebron, garnett), solid defenders (billups, mourning, howard, garnett, billups) and they will never lose a game because of lack of shooters.

oh, and they would be coached like a team. not like an all star team (i.e. cycling guys in and out, making sure no one's ego is hurt).

I guess I understand your reasoning, but...I have to ask the obvious questions:

The original 1992 Dream Team, the greatest team ever assembled in the history of sports, the team that absolutely decimated every team in its path, was nothing but stars, with the exceptions of Leattner and maybe Chris Mullin. The roster was:

Patrick Ewing/David Robinson/Christian Leattner
Karl Malone/Larry Bird/Christian Leattner
Charles Barkley/Chris Mullin/Scottie Pippen
Michael Jordan/Clyde Drexler
Magic Johnson/Scottie Pippen/John Stockton(Stockton was injured more often than not during the olympics, and Pippen could run the point)

So my question for you is, in your opinion, why is the formula that worked to absolute perfection in 1992 no longer useable in your eyes? Has the international competition gotten that much better or have the stars of the American game gotten that much worse? Why was a team of stars ok then but not now?

 

[Headache in a Suitcase]

So my question for you is, in your opinion, why is the formula that worked to absolute perfection in 1992 no longer useable in your eyes? Has the international competition gotten that much better or have the stars of the American game gotten that much worse? Why was a team of stars ok then but not now?

both... international competition has gotten better and the american game has disentigrated to a point where only drastic, long term changes can bring it back.

 

[guill]

You're very severe.
The US team in Atlanta won matches with a big margin, the American basketball can't have collapsed in 6 years (Indianapolis 2002).
A team with O'Neal, Garnett, Duncan, Bryant, etc would have won this competition hands down.

 

[Headache in a Suitcase]

You're very severe.
The US team in Atlanta won matches with a big margin, the American basketball can't have collapsed in 6 years (Indianapolis 2002).
A team with O'Neal, Garnett, Duncan, Bryant, etc would have won this competition hands down.

10 years ago we could have sent a team of second tier players and won easily.

and i would hardly call this year's team "second rate." lebron was an MVP candidate, wade was the MVP of the nba finals... and they lost to a team that lost to spain, without pao, by 23 points.

i work in basketball at the high school level... the drop off in talent over the past 5-10 years is unbelievable. players who were D3 players at best 10 years ago are getting D1 scholarships. i could go into a huge disertation on all the problems with the current structure of american basketball but it would take too long and frankly i've probably done it already, anyways.

 

[guill]

Ok, thanks for your answer.
A last question, do you think that the 2002-2006 fiasco will have an impact on the current structure or nobody cares ?

 

[Headache in a Suitcase]

there are too many people making too much money for the current structure to change.

youth basketball is tied too much into AAU now a days, where kids recieve very little in terms of actuall instruction on the core fundamentals of the game, as opposed to in the past when your high school team, where you actually get real coaching, was the most important thing and AAU was just a side thing. and of course most major AAU programs have tie-ins with the major sneaker companies, who are all hoping to find the next michael jordan, whom changed the whole ball game, making the companies that he endorsed billions upon billions of dollars.

take that with the assumption that everyone from AAU programs to college coaches to NBA GMs are more willing to take a chance on an athletic freak than a skilled player because of the freak's "tremendous upside potential."

i could go on and on and on, but, eh, fuck it. everything in america is corrupt in some way. athletics is no different.

long stoy short, blame sonny vaccaro.

 

[guill]

You're not alone to be unhappy :
http://www.powerbasketball.com/060104.html
Keep the faith.

 

[Headache in a Suitcase]

that article sums up my feelings to a T. it is dead on balls accurate.

thank you for sharing

 

[guill]

I wonder if a guy like Stockton would have been a sonny vaccaro's project

We'll reopen this thread in 2008 i think.....