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Old 09-02-2006, 03:51 AM   #16
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Originally posted by Headache in a Suitcase
you could put together an american team that would dominate in the worlds. it is possible. you just have to not be blinded by "star" power and take guys who actually can play the game the way it's meant to be played.
Hey Headache, just for the sake of arguement, and so I can have a better overall understanding of your argeument here, what would be your ideal USA Roster?
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Old 09-02-2006, 11:01 AM   #17
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michael jordan, larry bird, magic johnson, patrick ewing, charles barkley...

this is the current roster, and without putting much thought into it, i added who i'd replace them with, if i could.. trying to replace the player with someone who plays the same position... and leaving out guys like shaq, kobe

LeBron James... keep
Antwan Jamison... replace with Adam Morrison
Elton Brand... replace with Kevin Garnett
Chris Paul... replace with Chauncey Billups
Carmelo Anthony... replace with Ray Allen
Chris Bosh... replace with Alonzo Mourning
Dwight Howard... replace with ben wallace... just kidding... keep or replace with Amare if healthy
Brad Miller... replace with Kevin Pittsnoggle... that's right.
Joe Johnson... replace with JJ Redick
Kirk Hinrich... keep
Shane Battier... keep
Dwyane Wade... replace with Michael Redd


so more or less i'd replace any shoot first guy... i.e. wade, carmello... guys who need to go 1-on-1 to be effective... with pure shooters allen and redd. the 1-on-1 isolation type game that flourishes in the NBA is effectively useless in the international game. it will work against certain teams, but eventually it will be exposed.

jamison and johnson are basicaly useless, so i'd replace them with young shooters.

bosh is also useless on this team, so i'd replace him with a veteran leader like mourning, who can do the limited role that bosh played a hell of a lot better than bosh.. i.e. play 5-10 minutes a game and block a few shots. no one does that better than Zo, 'cause at this point in his career he can only play a limited role, anyways. plus no one will F with him, and when you put together a group of ego's, you need a strong veteran presence that everyone respects to keep them all in line.

dwight howard can stay only if amare stoudamire isn't healthy. he fills the need at the 5... rebound, block some shots, get some cheap baskets, and he can run all day.

brad miller never saw the court, so why not replace him with a young big who can shoot from the outside. if you watched the other teams play, all their bigs can shoot. they bring some 18 year old kid off the bench to play 5 minutes, he's 7 feet tall, and be bangs threes better than our nba all stars. so why not take a roster spot that is never gonna be used anyway, give it to a young, hungry kid who's gonna be honored to just be there, and who can serve a purpose in the international game if needed. pittsnoggle came to mind, but there's a handful of other guys who could be plugged in here. this would be like the christian lattener spot on the 92' team... sure, they coulda taken shaq instead, or another veteran (isiah)... but why? they didn't need him, take a young big who can shoot instead and give him an experience he'll actually value.

getting garnett on board is obvious. elton brand is a very good player, in the international game you need your 4 to be able to play outside of the post... which no 4 does better than kevin garnett. plus garnett is an unselfish superstar, is a fiery S.O.B, and would be able to provide some veteran leadership.

paul for billups is obvious for me also. hinrich is a great player in the international game, because he spreads the ball, won't look shot first and can knock down the open three with consistancy. so is billups. paul's shot is suspect. any guard who can't shoot immediately gets removed from my team.

shane battier can stay or be replaced with a variety of other players... i.e. guys who don't do any one thing great but can do a variety of things well. the perfect role player.

lebron james on a team with unselfish shooters is the best player in the world. on a team with shoot first, isolation guys, he turns into a bystander. he stays on my team.

so my revised roster looks like this
1- billups, hinrich
2- ray allen, michael redd, jj redick
3- lebron james, shane battier, adam morrison
4- kevin garnett, young player
5- dwight howard or amare stoudamire, alonzo mourning

allen, redd & redick could all also play the 3, lebron and morrison could fill in at the 4, garnett could play the 5

this gives you a young team with a sprinkling of veteran leadership... a team that can shoot the lights out, has a formidable inside defensive presence, flexability to run out multiple lineups, and not a single 1-on-1 isolation type player.

obviously it would be hard to get every one to committ (esp. garnett) but this team would never lose. they still have the go to guys who are capable of dominating a game at any given moment (lebron, garnett), solid defenders (billups, mourning, howard, garnett, billups) and they will never lose a game because of lack of shooters.

oh, and they would be coached like a team. not like an all star team (i.e. cycling guys in and out, making sure no one's ego is hurt).
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Old 09-02-2006, 11:53 AM   #18
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Carmelo Anthony deserves to stay in the team USA, without him USA would have sunk deeper.

O'Neal should play the Olympics, he is the last legend.
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Old 09-02-2006, 10:31 PM   #19
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Don't the Yanks usually send half-arsed teams to these international basketball comps, like they do with the Olympics? Do they ever actually send their best possible squad to take on the world?

If so, I'm ecstatic they lost, cause that's what they deserve for underestimating the opposition. What pure arrogance.

Imagine if Brazil sent a 4th string side to a football World Cup. Imagine the outcry. Imagine if the Aussies sent the Tassie state team to the Ashes rather than the best Australian players. Would never happen!

The whole sport is a bit of a joke anyway. "For-tall-people-only"
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Old 09-03-2006, 02:52 PM   #20
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Originally posted by intedomine
The whole sport is a bit of a joke anyway. "For-tall-people-only"
thanks for the intelligent, well thought out response.
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Old 09-03-2006, 07:21 PM   #21
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Quote:
Originally posted by intedomine
The whole sport is a bit of a joke anyway. "For-tall-people-only"


Mario Kasun: 7'1"
Earl Boykins: 5'6"

do the math.
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Old 09-03-2006, 10:27 PM   #22
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Quote:
Originally posted by Headache in a Suitcase
michael jordan, larry bird, magic johnson, patrick ewing, charles barkley...

this is the current roster, and without putting much thought into it, i added who i'd replace them with, if i could.. trying to replace the player with someone who plays the same position... and leaving out guys like shaq, kobe

LeBron James... keep
Antwan Jamison... replace with Adam Morrison
Elton Brand... replace with Kevin Garnett
Chris Paul... replace with Chauncey Billups
Carmelo Anthony... replace with Ray Allen
Chris Bosh... replace with Alonzo Mourning
Dwight Howard... replace with ben wallace... just kidding... keep or replace with Amare if healthy
Brad Miller... replace with Kevin Pittsnoggle... that's right.
Joe Johnson... replace with JJ Redick
Kirk Hinrich... keep
Shane Battier... keep
Dwyane Wade... replace with Michael Redd


so more or less i'd replace any shoot first guy... i.e. wade, carmello... guys who need to go 1-on-1 to be effective... with pure shooters allen and redd. the 1-on-1 isolation type game that flourishes in the NBA is effectively useless in the international game. it will work against certain teams, but eventually it will be exposed.

jamison and johnson are basicaly useless, so i'd replace them with young shooters.

bosh is also useless on this team, so i'd replace him with a veteran leader like mourning, who can do the limited role that bosh played a hell of a lot better than bosh.. i.e. play 5-10 minutes a game and block a few shots. no one does that better than Zo, 'cause at this point in his career he can only play a limited role, anyways. plus no one will F with him, and when you put together a group of ego's, you need a strong veteran presence that everyone respects to keep them all in line.

dwight howard can stay only if amare stoudamire isn't healthy. he fills the need at the 5... rebound, block some shots, get some cheap baskets, and he can run all day.

brad miller never saw the court, so why not replace him with a young big who can shoot from the outside. if you watched the other teams play, all their bigs can shoot. they bring some 18 year old kid off the bench to play 5 minutes, he's 7 feet tall, and be bangs threes better than our nba all stars. so why not take a roster spot that is never gonna be used anyway, give it to a young, hungry kid who's gonna be honored to just be there, and who can serve a purpose in the international game if needed. pittsnoggle came to mind, but there's a handful of other guys who could be plugged in here. this would be like the christian lattener spot on the 92' team... sure, they coulda taken shaq instead, or another veteran (isiah)... but why? they didn't need him, take a young big who can shoot instead and give him an experience he'll actually value.

getting garnett on board is obvious. elton brand is a very good player, in the international game you need your 4 to be able to play outside of the post... which no 4 does better than kevin garnett. plus garnett is an unselfish superstar, is a fiery S.O.B, and would be able to provide some veteran leadership.

paul for billups is obvious for me also. hinrich is a great player in the international game, because he spreads the ball, won't look shot first and can knock down the open three with consistancy. so is billups. paul's shot is suspect. any guard who can't shoot immediately gets removed from my team.

shane battier can stay or be replaced with a variety of other players... i.e. guys who don't do any one thing great but can do a variety of things well. the perfect role player.

lebron james on a team with unselfish shooters is the best player in the world. on a team with shoot first, isolation guys, he turns into a bystander. he stays on my team.

so my revised roster looks like this
1- billups, hinrich
2- ray allen, michael redd, jj redick
3- lebron james, shane battier, adam morrison
4- kevin garnett, young player
5- dwight howard or amare stoudamire, alonzo mourning

allen, redd & redick could all also play the 3, lebron and morrison could fill in at the 4, garnett could play the 5

this gives you a young team with a sprinkling of veteran leadership... a team that can shoot the lights out, has a formidable inside defensive presence, flexability to run out multiple lineups, and not a single 1-on-1 isolation type player.

obviously it would be hard to get every one to committ (esp. garnett) but this team would never lose. they still have the go to guys who are capable of dominating a game at any given moment (lebron, garnett), solid defenders (billups, mourning, howard, garnett, billups) and they will never lose a game because of lack of shooters.

oh, and they would be coached like a team. not like an all star team (i.e. cycling guys in and out, making sure no one's ego is hurt).
I guess I understand your reasoning, but...I have to ask the obvious questions:

The original 1992 Dream Team, the greatest team ever assembled in the history of sports, the team that absolutely decimated every team in its path, was nothing but stars, with the exceptions of Leattner and maybe Chris Mullin. The roster was:

Patrick Ewing/David Robinson/Christian Leattner
Karl Malone/Larry Bird/Christian Leattner
Charles Barkley/Chris Mullin/Scottie Pippen
Michael Jordan/Clyde Drexler
Magic Johnson/Scottie Pippen/John Stockton(Stockton was injured more often than not during the olympics, and Pippen could run the point)

So my question for you is, in your opinion, why is the formula that worked to absolute perfection in 1992 no longer useable in your eyes? Has the international competition gotten that much better or have the stars of the American game gotten that much worse? Why was a team of stars ok then but not now?
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Old 09-03-2006, 10:35 PM   #23
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Quote:
Originally posted by namkcuR
So my question for you is, in your opinion, why is the formula that worked to absolute perfection in 1992 no longer useable in your eyes? Has the international competition gotten that much better or have the stars of the American game gotten that much worse? Why was a team of stars ok then but not now?
both... international competition has gotten better and the american game has disentigrated to a point where only drastic, long term changes can bring it back.
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Old 09-04-2006, 09:27 PM   #24
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You're very severe.
The US team in Atlanta won matches with a big margin, the American basketball can't have collapsed in 6 years (Indianapolis 2002).
A team with O'Neal, Garnett, Duncan, Bryant, etc would have won this competition hands down.
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Old 09-05-2006, 11:08 AM   #25
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You're very severe.
The US team in Atlanta won matches with a big margin, the American basketball can't have collapsed in 6 years (Indianapolis 2002).
A team with O'Neal, Garnett, Duncan, Bryant, etc would have won this competition hands down.
10 years ago we could have sent a team of second tier players and won easily.

and i would hardly call this year's team "second rate." lebron was an MVP candidate, wade was the MVP of the nba finals... and they lost to a team that lost to spain, without pao, by 23 points.

i work in basketball at the high school level... the drop off in talent over the past 5-10 years is unbelievable. players who were D3 players at best 10 years ago are getting D1 scholarships. i could go into a huge disertation on all the problems with the current structure of american basketball but it would take too long and frankly i've probably done it already, anyways.
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Old 09-05-2006, 01:52 PM   #26
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Ok, thanks for your answer.
A last question, do you think that the 2002-2006 fiasco will have an impact on the current structure or nobody cares ?
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Old 09-05-2006, 04:08 PM   #27
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there are too many people making too much money for the current structure to change.

youth basketball is tied too much into AAU now a days, where kids recieve very little in terms of actuall instruction on the core fundamentals of the game, as opposed to in the past when your high school team, where you actually get real coaching, was the most important thing and AAU was just a side thing. and of course most major AAU programs have tie-ins with the major sneaker companies, who are all hoping to find the next michael jordan, whom changed the whole ball game, making the companies that he endorsed billions upon billions of dollars.

take that with the assumption that everyone from AAU programs to college coaches to NBA GMs are more willing to take a chance on an athletic freak than a skilled player because of the freak's "tremendous upside potential."

i could go on and on and on, but, eh, fuck it. everything in america is corrupt in some way. athletics is no different.

long stoy short, blame sonny vaccaro.
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Old 09-07-2006, 08:16 AM   #28
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You're not alone to be unhappy :
http://www.powerbasketball.com/060104.html
Keep the faith.
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Old 09-07-2006, 08:59 AM   #29
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that article sums up my feelings to a T. it is dead on balls accurate.

thank you for sharing
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Old 09-11-2006, 09:06 AM   #30
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I wonder if a guy like Stockton would have been a sonny vaccaro's project

We'll reopen this thread in 2008 i think.....
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