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Old 06-15-2002, 03:29 PM   #16
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I AM an American-and who are you to judge me? I guess you assumed incorrectly that I'm not.Yes, I live in America, and 2 people from my town DIED that day, and dozens from my state.

This isn't Free Your Mind, and that's why I stay away from that place, because of stuff like this. I stated my opinion on you posting that picture, because it offended me, for the reasons I've stated. And no, I don't think that's inappropriate, because I'm frankly tired of ignoring stuff like this and being intimidated into remaining silent.

So please don't lecture me, as I am very familiar w/ that tragic day. I don't need a lecture, or to see that picture, to tell me how to feel about it either.
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Old 06-15-2002, 07:15 PM   #17
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Calm Down, Ballistic. Gina Marie was merely stating that the picture brings back memories many people visiting a message board about U2 don't want to think about.
I could tell from what she wrote, that she wasn't insinuating that you were trying to offend. She merely was trying to point out the fact that many people come here to escape and pictures like that aren't perhaps what people want to see while posting in a light hearted forum.

You don't need to jump all over her for it. It was a simple request. I am not American and it made my stomach churn when I saw it.
And yes it should do that, but I still don't think its something people need to see while surfing a very light hearted message board where they come to escape the realities of every day life.
However, that is your choice, but I honestly don't believe Gina Marie was doing any of the things you say she was.
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Old 06-15-2002, 07:23 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally posted by Gina Marie
I AM an American-and who are you to judge me? I guess you assumed incorrectly that I'm not.Yes, I live in America, and 2 people from my town DIED that day, and dozens from my state.

This isn't Free Your Mind, and that's why I stay away from that place, because of stuff like this. I stated my opinion on you posting that picture, because it offended me, for the reasons I've stated. And no, I don't think that's inappropriate, because I'm frankly tired of ignoring stuff like this and being intimidated into remaining silent.

So please don't lecture me, as I am very familiar w/ that tragic day. I don't need a lecture, or to see that picture, to tell me how to feel about it either.
I agree with you 100% Gina Marie. You are not the only one who is offended by that picture. Believe me, I don't need any reminders...my birthday is 9/11, I'm surely not going to forget. I don't know what would motivate someone to use a picture like that on a U2 message board.
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Old 06-15-2002, 08:07 PM   #19
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How would people react if a Japanese reader here put a picture of Hiroshima on their signature?

Or Jewish people put images of Auschwitz?

Just a thought. Would be good to see what you all think!

Incidentally, Yoda's great! Or as he would say "Great I am... of poor quality dialogue I am not"
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Old 06-15-2002, 10:32 PM   #20
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Now that I have seen Episode 2, I can safely say that Yoda kicks ass, although his talking has become a little cliche... But what everyone has said is true, its more of an action movie than anything and the dialogue doesnt have to be good...
You have to keep in mind that a series of 9 movies, where the middle 3 were completed first, movies 1, 2, and 3, just become plot fillers... And in a story that long, covering 3 generations, you can only include so much, and truth be told, it is bad, but that comes at the cost of needing a way to filling in the story and just doing a really halfassed job at it because youre focusing in on really sweetass lightsaber battles...

--------------------------

As for topics of people taking offense to what others have said... I will not make any references to either side when I say this, because I know where my feelings on the issue lie, but in taking sides this comment seems biased, which it is not. What America, North America, Western civilization has come to embody is the freedoms that we each posses. Freedom to live, choose our own path, be successful on our terms, freedom to possess, freedom to speak, freedom of expression, etc, etc, etc. While the terrorists have no justification for taking 4000+ lives, they do have a reason, and it is the fault of the United States when you come down to it. The attack was an attack on Western Civilization, the ruse of freedom that we have, since the governments do a lot of things that we dont know about, distorted slightly by our media to make them look faultless, blame everyone else. But, these freedoms that we do have, we cherish dearly. Now, granted, you have the freedom to choose to be offended by something or not, and granted, you have the freedom to choose to voice that opinion through your right to free speech. If I were to say something, completely unintentionally offending someone, my attitude would be 'too bad, shut up', because whether they take offense or not, it was not my intent, I have my right to free speech, free expression, and if I saw nothing wrong with what I said/did/showed then I would make no appologies for it. Existentially speaking, each person has their own self, their own set of ideals and values that they develop after they are born, and as such, if they say something freely, mindful that they are responsible for what they say and resulting consequences, they are entitled to do so whether people like it or not. On that same note, existentialism also holds the idea that everyone has their own set of values that they live by, having developed through their lives, and as such, are worth of respect, regardless of what they say or do, because that is who they are, whether or not your values say it is ok. So, lets not jump on someone's case for posting an image like that in their signature, it very probably has its own reason for being there, there is probably justification, be it a somber reminder, a political statement, an expression of said person's 'hey, this explosion looks cool when taken out of the true context', or whether it is just to cause controversy. You may choose to be offended, but as others infringe upon your rights, be the better person and do not infringe upon theirs.

My personal commentary as to the actual image itself, I do feel it is out of place, given the context, given that this is a public forum, and given that some may still be deeply saddened by the events that transpired on that day. However ligitimate Tweed's reasoning behind it is, I feel it was in poor taste to put such an image in a place where it could effect so many people on an emotional level. I cannot tell you to remove it, but I can advise that it may be better to avoid conflict over this and simply give in to the crowd on this one. Individuality has no place in the world, as the rights of many over-ride the rights of the few. Sad, but true. I find nothing wrong with the image itself, but since others do, it is probably best to get rid of it for their sake.

That is all.
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Old 06-15-2002, 11:35 PM   #21
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they do have a reason, and it is the fault of the United States when you come down to it.

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Old 06-16-2002, 12:22 AM   #22
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While the terrorists have no justification for taking 4000+ lives, they do have a reason, and it is the fault of the United States when you come down to it.
Fault? Fault? Choose your words carefully because it was not the United State's "fault" that those innocent people were slain that day. It was an attack on the institutions the terrorists (hypocritically) hate, even though we are part of the hand that feeds them.

Quote:
...it was not my intent, I have my right to free speech, free expression, and if I saw nothing wrong with what I said/did/showed then I would make no appologies for it.
On that same note, existentialism also holds the idea that everyone has their own set of values that they live by, having developed through their lives, and as such, are worth of respect, regardless of what they say or do, because that is who they are, whether or not your values say it is ok.
Respect for the person yes, but you can disagree with the opinion. Just because a person believes what they say and will not apologize for it does not mean that it is the correct belief.

Quote:
So, lets not jump on someone's case for posting an image like that in their signature, it very probably has its own reason for being there, there is probably justification, be it a somber reminder, a political statement, an expression of said person's 'hey, this explosion looks cool when taken out of the true context', or whether it is just to cause controversy. You may choose to be offended, but as others infringe upon your rights, be the better person and do not infringe upon theirs.
I did not see Gina jumping on anyone's case- just stating her opinion.The harsh tone in which Ballistic Tweed responded I thought was jumping on her case and not responding civily.

Anyway- the image is one of death and destruction, especially the one of the plane going into that building. Think of the horror to so many people at that moment. Is it out of context that people would be offended and saddened to see that? As an American it insults me and as a human it saddens me. If he wants to speak about the awful deed that took place that day then use another picture, one of people standing up for what they believe in and healing themselves, friends, countrymen. Not one that represents such evilness.
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Old 06-16-2002, 01:43 AM   #23
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hmmm....no longer about Yoda so I'm adding my two cents.

That picture is jarring. yes it needs to be seen but not here.

As for Americans having to be reminded what happened that day....yes, most people have forgotten what happened that day but they forgot on Sept. 12. The events of Sept. 11 should have made us realize there is a whole world outside of our borders that thinks we're arrogant and naive to what goes on in the world. And instead of trying to understand and learn what others think of the U.S. and what goes on outside our borders, most Americans became more arrogant and isolated and all under this label of "patriotism."

I know some of you may think I'm being overly critical and perhaps I am. But for as much as people in this country talked about how they were all New Yorkers on Sept. 11, they sent us a check and forgot about us and the events of that day. They turned off their TVs and went back to living their quiet lives in Iowa while we still have to live with the memories of watching people jump to their deaths, of smelling the burning of lower Manhattan when we walked out of our apartments, of remembering the taste of 110 stories of building collapsing around us and engulfing us.

Be offended by the photo because it shows the heinous evil unleashed on humanity, not because its a photo of some plane attacking America. The attacks were much bigger than that as well as the lives that were lost.
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Old 06-16-2002, 07:41 AM   #24
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Just a little coment on the "America`s faulf for being attaced" thing. Teroirsts have reasons ,yes. They claim to have some ideal to which the fight for . But is there realy an escuse for the killing of inosents?! they are caliming to fight in the name of God ,so I`m asking -WHO MADE THEM GOD TO TAKE THE LIFE OF OTHERS?!?!?!
As far as America`s fault... it`s rediculous! is it America`s fault that these people choole to live a primitive life (And by prmitive I mean their barbaric ways of fighting and killing -NOT the fact that they`re poor. that`s not their fault ). They`re jealous of prograssion, technology, it`s powerfull and they`re not a part of it ,it`s quite clear. BUT...Taking a plane and...eh!
There is a reason for the killing ,YES! is The USA guilty?! NO NO NO!
If they`re guilty of things surely 9.11 is no "punishment"! If they weren`t so primitive they`d find better and more human ways to make their point!!!


..................................................


As for Yoda- HE ROCKS!
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Old 06-16-2002, 02:46 PM   #25
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This all goes back to before the cold war, back to the end of imperialism after world war two, when all the major powers took their militarys and their people out of African and Eastern countries and left them to rot. I really dont have the time right now to go through peice by peice and pick out all the evidence of what America has done to alienate these countries, used them for their own ends, kicked them like a dog and then been so suprised when the dog finally bites back. If you demand it of me, I will start researching next Tuesday, the 25th, and I will have for you a report on all the shit the US has done to these countries and why these countries have reason for what theyve done.

The fault does not lie with the United States, that statement was left too open for interpretation, and I appologize. However, the US has given them all the reason in the world to do it, although I (as I said before) still feel there is no justification for taking 4000+ lives, and I never once said that it was ok, but there is a reason for it, that still doesnt excuse the fact that it is wrong, and that still doesnt excuse the fact that they did not have to choose to retaliate.

Nextly, yes I was being a little harsh on Gina and others, but that was not my intent. I was standing up for Tweed's ability to say/post what he likes, and you even said oliveu2cm, "that does not make it the correct belief". Well what makes your belief correct? Because you are in the majority, part of the most powerful nation in the world, that you are automatically correct? You have to remember that the US, through the cold war, the vietnam war, funded terrorism against the Russians, against the Communists. It seems a little ironic that when the US was the political body so opposed to the grand ideals of communism, since it infringes upon the right of each american to be free to succeed at different levels, the right to choose what to do, where, etc. It seems ironic that back in that day it was right for terrorism to occur because it was an act benefiting the US, but when the US stops funding these terrorists and they choose to leave them impovered, ignore the well-being of these people that they have just used for their own ends, it seems ironic that terrorism suddenly becomes earth-shatteringly evil when these dejected human beings turn and attack the US. The terrorists were not right in their actions, but that doesnt mean that the American way of life, American ideals, it doesnt mean that America is always right either.


As for memphis' comments, I am going to deal with that in a seperate message, just so that this doesnt turn into a 20 page long post that noone is willing to read.
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Old 06-16-2002, 03:15 PM   #26
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Quote:
Originally posted by MEMHPIS-EVE 007
Just a little coment on the "America`s faulf for being attaced" thing. Teroirsts have reasons ,yes. They claim to have some ideal to which the fight for . But is there realy an escuse for the killing of inosents?! they are caliming to fight in the name of God ,so I`m asking -WHO MADE THEM GOD TO TAKE THE LIFE OF OTHERS?!?!?!
As far as America`s fault... it`s rediculous! is it America`s fault that these people choole to live a primitive life (And by prmitive I mean their barbaric ways of fighting and killing -NOT the fact that they`re poor. that`s not their fault ). They`re jealous of prograssion, technology, it`s powerfull and they`re not a part of it ,it`s quite clear. BUT...Taking a plane and...eh!
There is a reason for the killing ,YES! is The USA guilty?! NO NO NO!
If they`re guilty of things surely 9.11 is no "punishment"! If they weren`t so primitive they`d find better and more human ways to make their point!!!



..................................................


As for Yoda- HE ROCKS!


First off, I have already appologized for leaving that statement so open to interpretation. Thusly, I am unsure whether this was just an attempt to argue me down, or whether this was a statement of opinion... However, it is filled with uninformed comments and I feel I should clear a few things up.

They live a primative life of fighting and killing because that is their way of life. Their religion is based around the principles that women are to serve men, men do the work, if someone attacks you then you have the right to attack them back, if someone steals something from you, you are entitled to exact revenge. An eye for an eye, hand for a hand. Granted, in Osama Bin-Laden's Afghanistan, there was a great deal of seperation from the true islamic type religion, there was a great deal of corruption, propaganda seeded into their 'bible', propaganada such as 'kill all americans and our god will be happy'. Now, the afghan way of life is subsequently corrupt automatically against the US. But, remember, they are not offered education, everything that went into their lives was controlled by the dictator, they did not have a choice to be so barbaric. If you sympathise with the US, then you are a traitor to your country, your religion, and your god. You would have to question the word of your god in the first place to even realise that the US was not an enemy, and if somehow you came to the realisation that the US wasnt even around when their religious text was supposedly written, then you would try to validate it, but there are no un-tainted copies around, there is really no way for them to learn anything but hatred. The funding of terrorism by the US, the abandonment these people felt when they no longer had use, no longer had funding, the plights of whom were completely ignored by the US - these things caused, in one way or another, Im not precisely sure how, but these were causes for the biblical mis-representations/propaganada that became present.

Also, this is not a christian or catholic God, this is a completely different religion. As for who made them God, gave them the right to kill people, the answer is noone gave them that right, they never have had it. However, the powers that ran that country facilitated it, again, feeling that the state of their war torn country was fault of the US. So they facilitated the propaganda from which their God says how glorious it is to kill others in the name of their country.

The whole conflict is deeply seeded in the western ideals. That, and the funding of terrorists 50 some odd years ago which has caused most problems of today. The US helps 3rd world countries back on their feet, sure, but in turn places the capitalist/democratic systems into these countries, at the cost of exponentially increasing debts in these countries because they make no money off the industrys the US places there, they have to sell nigh all their food just to pay off a small portion of the debts, and if you look to situations like somalia, its US interference that caused most of the problems - but in the case of somalia, it dates back further to the imperialist domination of britain, france, etc, in Africa in the 200 years prior to WWII. The West's ideals conflict directly with the ideals of the East. To call them jealous of the US and the technology is complete bullshit. What you have to realise is that they do not think like us Westerners. They have a vastly simpler way of life. They do not need technology to exist. Where western culture has been around since Greece, Rome, the enlightenment, Eastern civilization has been around for thousands more years. The West are the ones who desire progression, the ones who desire advancement, and in the short time western civilization has been around, our technology quickly became vastly superior to theirs. The end result being, in the simplest terms available, you will be like us or we will kill you because our technology of the ways of destruction far exceed yours. The idea of the East wanting progression is an idea imposed on them by the West. If you just look at China, they existed in seclusion from all the world until the British tried to colonize them, addicted the nation to Opium to gain power over them, and corrupted them. The West, although in some ways superior to the East, is also in some ways inferior. However, the corruption of the East was inevitable, since it would just be a matter of time until the West said 'hey, we need what you have' and tried to take it from them in one way or another. The reason that these countries want the West's technology now is so they can defend themselves, and if you look at it, the US pours money into these governments to be spent on food, social services, health care, education, but where does the money really go? Into buying weapons and equal technology. Ultimately, whatever they do, whether refuse to pay these countries, or continue to pay them, the money will be spent in the wrong ways or the country will see them as more of an enemy because just as before with others, they are being abandoned by 'an arrogant country who only aims to improve itself'. Regardless of the truth of that statement, thats what happens.


Id type more, but I have 2 assignments due tomorrow, and I really need to finish, plus I need to organize my thoughts on the issue a little more - since some of that is a little incoherant, and I appologize.
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Old 06-16-2002, 03:33 PM   #27
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Originally posted by ~unforgettableFOXfire~

Nextly, yes I was being a little harsh on Gina and others, but that was not my intent. I was standing up for Tweed's ability to say/post what he likes, and you even said oliveu2cm, "that does not make it the correct belief". Well what makes your belief correct? Because you are in the majority, part of the most powerful nation in the world, that you are automatically correct?
Um, no....I never said or implied anything about the majority being the correct belief- I do not believe in cultural relativism. What I was talking about is that Existentialists believe that there is one "correct belief" that exists and it is every person's responsibility to discover that belief and live their lives according to it. Just because you or I or anyone holds a belief does not give that belief truth. We could get into the whole Nazi regime if examples are needed.

I do not want to argue about any this, I have better things to do with my time than argue endless without anyone having a change of mind, and I say that with the utmost respect to anyone who wants to carry on this conversation - I'm not being a smart ass or rude. I just don't want to get into this. I suggest this thread gets moved or someone starts another one in Free Your Mind, where people have more time and energy to hash out these arguments.
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Old 06-17-2002, 07:29 AM   #28
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I see your point ~unforgettableFOXfire~ Im saying the same thing' eys they are unfortunatelly poor living in the most negelcted part of the wrold, they are starving, dying of deadly desease and they`re children are making dresses and sports shues for the western chindren (I`m talking generaly about the asian part). Lets say that I know what frustration regarding the lack of options to progress is. YOu maybe don`t know but I`m from Israel- no where near the USA . I see people who can`t go nowhere , who are traped in poorety with no opertunity for a future, the same people who kill us on the streets every day. NOTHING and I mean NOTHING justifies killing innosense. They can`t ansuer for their goverment ' they can`t die for their mistakes.
You were talking about religion you know that in jewdaism and christianity religions suicide of any type is a sin,right?! I`m not familiar with the Koran or with their religion generaly but enough for me to say as someone who belives in the SAME god they do (As all three religions do!!!)with no relation to any religion that what they`re doing is beyond a sin.

In any case we all entitled to our opinion no matter what. I would like to talk to you about it more (if you want...) when you have time

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Old 06-17-2002, 01:38 PM   #29
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Re: Yoda......little green bastard!

Quote:
Originally posted by U2002revolution!
er-k, we saw Star Wars tonight (we were gonna see a diff. one but it didn't work out) 1st of all i was kinda bored w/ it *snooze*, and if anyone saw it did you think it was to soup opera-ish? i mean when Annican and the chick would look at eachother, the way they would look @ each other then look away, and the way they answered eachother....anyone know what i mean?

and the main reason i posted.......

I WANNA KICK YODA'S ASS
Good God, i HATE the way he talks, all backwards and crap. anyone know what i mean? grrr. it was annoying me the whole movie

DAMN YODA!
Yeah, and he sounds like Grover form Sesame Street! What's up with that! And the CGI was horrible! It made him look like a puppet! That's sooo fake!

Anyway, I think that Padmay chick should hook up with Obee-One instead. That Annican guy's a real loser. I mean, imagine what their klids would be like!!
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Old 06-17-2002, 02:50 PM   #30
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Re: Re: Yoda......little green bastard!

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Originally posted by Not George Lucas


Yeah, and he sounds like Grover form Sesame Street! What's up with that! And the CGI was horrible! It made him look like a puppet! That's sooo fake!

Anyway, I think that Padmay chick should hook up with Obee-One instead. That Annican guy's a real loser. I mean, imagine what their klids would be like!!
[obvious] probably a lot like Luke and Leia? [/obvious]

lmao...
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