Would you vote McGwire into the HOF? - Page 2 - U2 Feedback

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View Poll Results: Would you Vote for Big Mac?
Yes, first ballot 6 21.43%
Yes, but make him wait a couple years 6 21.43%
Never 13 46.43%
Other (explain) 3 10.71%
Voters: 28. You may not vote on this poll

 
 
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Old 01-13-2007, 11:13 AM   #16
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A one-dimensional player, career .263 hitter and a horrible first baseman to boot? No.
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Old 01-13-2007, 02:52 PM   #17
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Originally posted by Keebler884
A one-dimensional player, career .263 hitter and a horrible first baseman to boot? No.
to say he shouldnt be in because of steroids is one thing, to say he doesn't have the numbers to make the hall is just ignorant...

From Baseball Prospectus, one of the leaders of baseball stats analyzation:

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One-dimensional?

The main argument against McGwire's credentials–-apart from the obvious one-–is that he was a "one-dimensional" ballplayer and should not, therefore, be elected to the Hall of Fame. The generates two questions:

1. Is this true?
2. If it is true, should it matter?

In The New Bill James Historical Baseball Abstract, James wrote: "…about 55% of McGwire's career value is accounted for by his home runs, a high figure, but not as high as players like Dave Kingman and Steve Balboni." There are two names you don't want anywhere near your resume when presenting for Cooperstown.

We know this much: nobody in the 500 Home Run Club ever relied on homers to carry their game the way McGwire did. His ratio of homers to doubles-plus-triples is 2.26:1, putting him in a class by himself in that method of accounting among the 500s:

McGwire: 2.26:1
Harmon Killebrew: 1.82:1
Sammy Sosa: 1.47:1
Willie McCovey: 1.31:1
Mickey Mantle: 1.29:1

As a contrast, seven members of the 500 Homerers had ratios lower than 1:1, starting with Eddie Murray (.85:1) and also including Ted Williams, Mel Ott, Rafael Palmeiro, Jimmie Foxx and Frank Robinson. Willie Mays (660/663) was almost even. Furthermore, as a percentage of total hits, McGwire's home runs account for 35.9%, a great leap forward from Killebrew's 27.5% figure, which previously led the 500 Home Run Club.

So, does that make McGwire one-dimensional? Only if you don't count walks. Any voter that mentions the phrase "batting average" in conjunction with McGwire has missed the point of the exercise that was his career. Going back to the 500 Homer Club, McGwire has the eighth-highest On-Base Percentage. Overall, he's currently 78th all-time in OBP. So, there was a second dimension. There is also the matter of his Gold Glove in 1990. He did have two pretty good defensive seasons: that year and the year after (24/13 and 23/13 FRAR/FRAA respectively), but from that point forward he had a -51 FRAA, so pitching his defense is a hard sell at best.

If it's one dimension, it's quite a dimension

If pressed to call him a one-dimensional player, then I would define that one dimension as "putting runs on the scoreboard." Very few in history were as accomplished at this as was McGwire. He currently ranks eighth all-time in EqA. The leaders:

.366: Babe Ruth
.364: Ted Williams
.356: Barry Bonds
.345: Lou Gehrig
.343: Albert Pujols
.342: Frank Thomas
.341: Mickey Mantle
.335: Rogers Hornsby
.335: Mark McGwire


That's household name territory right there.
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Old 01-13-2007, 02:55 PM   #18
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No, I make the point about Gwynn to cut off one line of attack against the fifth name on my ballot. There’s been some revisionist analysis of Mark McGwire that argues he was a one-dimensional player, a home-run hitter with little else in the way of skills. Now, a year ago, the BBWAA elected Sutter, the most one-dimensional player to ever be so honored. Sutter’s case rested on two poles—he succeeded in a highly-limited role and he specialized in one particular pitch. The argument that a player is “too one-dimensional” to be elected rings a bit hollow the year after that.

To use that argument against McGwire—who drew 1300 walks and had a career .394 OBP—is laughable on its face. But to make a “one-dimensional” argument against McGwire while at the same time allowing Gwynn to pass through is just comic. Gwynn was a singles hitter, a batting-average specialist who was so known for slapping singles that the Padres drew a “56” on the infield in the last days of his career to represent Gwynn’s favorite hole. Gwynn wasn’t one-dimensional throughout his career, but you can point to swaths of it, such as 1990 through 1992, when his batting average was his entire value.

McGwire isn’t the most one-dimensional player who’s a deserving candidate on this ballot, and pasting that label on him while letting Gwynn pass is either ignorant or biased.
McGwire undoubtedly has HOF numbers for anyone who knows anything more than just batting average, one of the worst statistics used to evaluate a player.
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Old 01-13-2007, 08:41 PM   #19
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thats a tough one.. but I have to say no I wouldn't.
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Old 01-16-2007, 02:04 PM   #20
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Big Mac hasn't said much about not gettting inducted. What's up with that? He should be pissed, but I guess he doesn't want anyone to know that.
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Old 01-16-2007, 02:08 PM   #21
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Worst thing he could do publicity-wise right now is to make a public statement about being upset regarding the HoF voting.
His best bet is to lay low and hope for a shot in the future. A lot of writers are giving him a one year penalty...enough?...who knows.
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Old 01-16-2007, 02:12 PM   #22
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I agree, but he could at least say that he's disappointed. I don't think the writers have a one year penalty in mind.
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Old 01-16-2007, 02:14 PM   #23
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I think some do...but since he only got 23%, I don't think he gets in next year unless somehow he gets publicly cleared of any steroid assumptions, which is unlikely.
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Old 01-16-2007, 02:22 PM   #24
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Quote:
Originally posted by MrPryck2U
Big Mac hasn't said much about not gettting inducted. What's up with that? He should be pissed, but I guess he doesn't want anyone to know that.
This is all he's said about it.

http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/news?slu...v=ap&type=lgns
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Old 01-16-2007, 02:30 PM   #25
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"I had an absolutely wonderful career that I am very proud of," McGwire said as he signed autographs at a charity event benefiting the Orange County Abuse Prevention Center. "I'm not in control of what happens -- I was in control of hitting the ball."
What else is he supposed to say?
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Old 01-16-2007, 02:43 PM   #26
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Originally posted by Keebler884
A one-dimensional player, career .263 hitter and a horrible first baseman to boot? No.
mark mcgwire stopped don mattingly's consecutive gold glove streak... he wasn't a great fielder, but he was good.
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Old 01-16-2007, 02:45 PM   #27
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Frankly, I'm sick of how McGwire's name has been dragged through the mud. Mark McGwire always handled himself with 100% class when he was in St. Louis. He's a great family man, and has done a ton to help abused children. I'll always remember the day he signed his contract entension in St. Louis, he was announcing a foundation he was starting to help abused children and donating 1 million a year of his salary towards it. And this was before salaries got super crazy, he only made 5 million in 97, and his 3 year extension was for less than 30 million, compared to todays salaries, that's crazy. And that night he hit one of the longest homeruns of his career, it was an amazing moment.

People act like steroids magically make you strong with no work. The fact is his workout routine was second to none, he worked out after every single game. You know it is possible to get big with just Andro and the strict workout regimine he had. And when the andro was discovered, a supplement you could get from GNC at the time, he gave it up so kids wouldn't follow his lead.

Compared to the athletes that are carrying guns, getting their bodyguards killed, brawling in the stands, doing ridiculous dances on the field and taunting the other team, Mark McGwire was a perfect citizen. For these fatass writers to keep him off the ballot for "character" issues is a fucking joke. He has more character than 90% of them. I've seen more than 1 writer compare him to OJ fucking Simpson, it's absolutely ludicrous, and it's sad to see this happen.

Sorry, just had to rant a little.
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Old 01-16-2007, 02:48 PM   #28
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Originally posted by WildHoneyAlways


I fail to see the connection. As an author and sports writer, isn't he entitled to change his mind? What do his book profits have to do with it? Is he asking McGwire to return money?

I would not vote McGwire into the HOF.
the connection is simple... mike lupica is soooo outraged about the whole steroid thing (which was hardly a secret when he wrote the book in the first place, mind you) that he and that elf looking mitch albom lead this huge campaign of outrage every sunday on The SportsReporters... yet he's more than happy to keep the profits that he, personally, made off mcgwire.

if the records and the hall of fame are tarnished because of the steroids, then, too, isn't all the money that these writers and major league baseball as a whole made off of the steroid users?

put your money where your mouth is... donate all profits made off of the mcgwire/sosa book to a teen anti-drug charity. otherwise shut the hell up (lupica, not you).
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Old 01-16-2007, 02:52 PM   #29
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Quote:
Originally posted by Chizip
Frankly, I'm sick of how McGwire's name has been dragged through the mud. Mark McGwire always handled himself with 100% class when he was in St. Louis. He's a great family man, and has done a ton to help abused children. I'll always remember the day he signed his contract entension in St. Louis, he was announcing a foundation he was starting to help abused children and donating 1 million a year of his salary towards it. And this was before salaries got super crazy, he only made 5 million in 97, and his 3 year extension was for less than 30 million, compared to todays salaries, that's crazy. And that night he hit one of the longest homeruns of his career, it was an amazing moment.

People act like steroids magically make you strong with no work. The fact is his workout routine was second to none, he worked out after every single game. You know it is possible to get big with just Andro and the strict workout regimine he had. And when the andro was discovered, a supplement you could get from GNC at the time, he gave it up so kids wouldn't follow his lead.

Compared to the athletes that are carrying guns, getting their bodyguards killed, brawling in the stands, doing ridiculous dances on the field and taunting the other team, Mark McGwire was a perfect citizen. For these fatass writers to keep him off the ballot for "character" issues is a fucking joke. He has more character than 90% of them. I've seen more than 1 writer compare him to OJ fucking Simpson, it's absolutely ludicrous, and it's sad to see this happen.

Sorry, just had to rant a little.


i met him at shea stadium one time briefly in 1998 when i was 11 years old. really nice guy and a class act all the way.
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Old 01-16-2007, 02:54 PM   #30
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Originally posted by Chizip
Frankly, I'm sick of how McGwire's name has been dragged through the mud. Mark McGwire always handled himself with 100% class when he was in St. Louis. He's a great family man, and has done a ton to help abused children. I'll always remember the day he signed his contract entension in St. Louis, he was announcing a foundation he was starting to help abused children and donating 1 million a year of his salary towards it. And this was before salaries got super crazy, he only made 5 million in 97, and his 3 year extension was for less than 30 million, compared to todays salaries, that's crazy. And that night he hit one of the longest homeruns of his career, it was an amazing moment.

People act like steroids magically make you strong with no work. The fact is his workout routine was second to none, he worked out after every single game. You know it is possible to get big with just Andro and the strict workout regimine he had. And when the andro was discovered, a supplement you could get from GNC at the time, he gave it up so kids wouldn't follow his lead.

Compared to the athletes that are carrying guns, getting their bodyguards killed, brawling in the stands, doing ridiculous dances on the field and taunting the other team, Mark McGwire was a perfect citizen. For these fatass writers to keep him off the ballot for "character" issues is a fucking joke. He has more character than 90% of them. I've seen more than 1 writer compare him to OJ fucking Simpson, it's absolutely ludicrous, and it's sad to see this happen.

Sorry, just had to rant a little.


saw him hit #s 50 and 51 that year, and i'll have no problem telling my kids about it.
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