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Old 05-16-2003, 06:34 PM   #151
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Originally posted by Chizip
what did you mean by this?

I was saying that *if* the breaks happen exclusively the way Zoni was speaking of (bad passes, mistakes, etc), it is *only* within a trapping system, and not an offensive one. Those breaks happen in both systems, but an offensive system will allow the players to create their own destiny to a higher degree -- therefore, it is never exclusive in an offensive system. Understand?
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Old 05-16-2003, 06:38 PM   #152
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Originally posted by cujo


How has Minnesota shown will and determination in this series? I'm sorry to butt into the conversation, but tell me one instance from game one where the Wild tried to get traffic in front of the net? That's the way to beat goalies... and the only way to do that is to out work the defense... with will and determination. Even if they haven't scored goals, their effort has been lacking... they look like the Red Wings.

Your fancentrism seems to be clouding your sense of judgement. Welcome to my world.

- Canada did not out hustle the US... they beat them with talent.

- As for making the game exciting with a larger ice surface... well that's just buying into a very popular belief that the World Championships and Olympics were more exciting... but that's only because of the talent pool. If it were applied to the NHL it would only work for the ALREADY exciting teams. How sportcenter of you chizip... for shame

- Zonelistener, your name is very misleading.
My God, Cujo, I agreed with everything you said (except for the talent factor being the only reason for Canada's victory).
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Old 05-16-2003, 06:40 PM   #153
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Originally posted by Chizip
are you denying that larger ice rinks wouldn't free up some space? this would make better skaters a premium, and that would mean people would want faster guys on their teams than the bigger strong guys who cant really skate. this would just create all around prettier play.

obviously you cant compare the nhl to the olypmics because the olympics are the best of the best. but, if there were larger ice rinks, more emphasis would be on speed than clogging things up, and the speed aspect of the game is what makes it exciting.
I'll go with that... the only problem is, you'll get teams of small fast guys, like Minni and Anaheim (who play to slow down the game for some odd reason). Which, has yet to capture the major audience's attention.

It would be interesting for them to do a trial run, maybe have the Mustard Cup in England again... get some NHL teams to go play in Europe in a mini-tourney, with the large ice-surface. I don't know the financial logistics of it, but I can't bet you'll hear whining from the bottom-tier teams if they enforce it league-wide.

PS- You might call me crazy and sick, but I like the Ana/Min series... I enjoy the close, low-scoring games. The only reason I brought up my points of excitement, was to appease some fans out there who said it wasn't exciting. I thoroughly enjoy goaltending duels...
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Old 05-16-2003, 06:41 PM   #154
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Quote:
Originally posted by Chizip
are you denying that larger ice rinks wouldn't free up some space? this would make better skaters a premium, and that would mean people would want faster guys on their teams than the bigger strong guys who cant really skate. this would just create all around prettier play.

obviously you cant compare the nhl to the olypmics because the olympics are the best of the best. but, if there were larger ice rinks, more emphasis would be on speed than clogging things up, and the speed aspect of the game is what makes it exciting.
I don't know Chizer. I honestly think that would only work for the talented teams (like Vancouver ). I wouldn't mind that, but you would have the less talented teams (who couldn't keep up to the increased skating) clogging up the neautral zone even more, and playing even more conservatively just to compete. I've watched less talented international teams do this, and seen it exactly as I just described.
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Old 05-16-2003, 06:41 PM   #155
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tell me cujo, do you think will and determination is something that's easily measurable?
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Old 05-16-2003, 06:42 PM   #156
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Originally posted by Michael Griffiths

My God, Cujo, I agreed with everything you said (except for the talent factor being the only reason for Canada's victory).
AHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!

- cujo runs and turns on the shower and burns all of his clothes...

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Old 05-16-2003, 06:44 PM   #157
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but miker, wouldnt it be harder for those teams to clog up the neutral zone since there is more ice to cover? it would seem it would be easier for a team to break through a neutral zoom trap because there is more room to maneuver. i dont know, i could be wrong but i think anything that will get rid of the hooking and obstruction and goonery that exists today would be a good thing.
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Old 05-16-2003, 06:48 PM   #158
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Originally posted by Chizip
tell me cujo, do you think will and determination is something that's easily measurable?
It's definitely a subjective thing, like any "statistic" in hockey. You can tell when a team is doggin it and playing shit. I would accuse Minnesota of lacking that characteristic, simply by the fact that they've been unable to counter the system of Anaheim. It's a crapshoot though... if they adjust their game by playing out of their system, then they'll be backing down on their plans... which is a lack of will. But, at some point they have to realize that they've got to score... through determination... going to the net... garbage goals... open up the ice. They're already down 3, so what's to lose?

The one factor against that whole measurement of Will and Determination is that it is clouded by systems. Discipline and strong defense can be mistaken for emotionless hockey, when in actual fact it takes an incredible amount of determination. Keeping your emotions in check, by staying out of the penalty box, has been a key testament to Anaheim's success. In that manner, Anaheim has shown more will and determination than the Wild... but like I say, it's all subjective.
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Old 05-16-2003, 06:53 PM   #159
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Quote:
Originally posted by Chizip
but miker, wouldnt it be harder for those teams to clog up the neutral zone since there is more ice to cover? it would seem it would be easier for a team to break through a neutral zoom trap because there is more room to maneuver. i dont know, i could be wrong but i think anything that will get rid of the hooking and obstruction and goonery that exists today would be a good thing.
Like Don Cherry says... it's CENTER ICE, not neutral zone

I have to entirely disagree with that statement chizip, respectfully. If you take a look at the teams that have been successful on the international scene, with a large size rink (like the Czech Republic)... they've relied on a trap-style system; that's because overall their team is not as talented as a Sweden, Canada, or US team. So, if it happens in the NHL, you'll just see the bottom-feeders doing the same thing that's happening now. Don't think they won't steal the Czech playbook... by golly Minnesota already has...
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Old 05-16-2003, 06:53 PM   #160
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Chizip, yes, there would be more room to skate and pass around the trap, but it wouldn't necessarily be a faster game. Having that much more space to work with requires more strategy and patience. Did you watch the Olympics in Nagano? Everyone thought Team Canada would destroy the competition, but teams like the Czechs made it very difficult. You rarely saw any of those legal two line passes, because it was just too difficult to break through. It takes longer to get from one end of the ice to the other, and is harder to penetrate the scoring areas because the teams keep people to the outside (which is really far away from the net on an international surface). If every team played like Canada and the US did last Olympics, then I would be all for it.
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Old 05-16-2003, 06:58 PM   #161
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I guess you can tell me and McGriff are Canadian... anything Czech is poison to us... why do you think we hate the trap?
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Old 05-16-2003, 06:58 PM   #162
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i see, well i dont get to see much international hockey, not on tv much here in the good old u.s. of a.

ok, make the ice larger, take out the red (well keep red for icing but thats it) and blue lines, make it 4 on 4 and goalies dont get a stick.
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Old 05-16-2003, 07:04 PM   #163
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Originally posted by Chizip
i see, well i dont get to see much international hockey, not on tv much here in the good old u.s. of a.

ok, make the ice larger, take out the red (well keep red for icing but thats it) and blue lines, make it 4 on 4 and goalies dont get a stick.
And Forsberg has to use a ringette stick

Jagr has to grow out the mullet again!
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Old 05-16-2003, 07:19 PM   #164
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Quote:
Originally posted by cujo


How has Minnesota shown will and determination in this series? I'm sorry to butt into the conversation, but tell me one instance from game one where the Wild tried to get traffic in front of the net? That's the way to beat goalies... and the only way to do that is to out work the defense... with will and determination. Even if they haven't scored goals, their effort has been lacking... they look like the Red Wings.

Your fancentrism seems to be clouding your sense of judgement. Welcome to my world.
Be honest with you - I have been unfortunate and missed a good chunck of all of the third round games, except for game three. I do not think I have ever been more frustrated watching a professional game in my life BECAUSE: 1) I felt they were not playing as hard as they could (breaking down the defense in front of the net, going after the puck, etc. etc. etc.). 2) Lack of decent shots on Giggy (we know he can save them when they are on the ice). They lacked determination!!!!!! If this is how they have been playing the whole time - that sucks.

I am a former sport journalist (who had editors to clean up messes like these posts) and a high school lacrosse coach. I have also been known to be a VERY fickle fan. What I am saying is, you will not see fancentrism here. Nope. Not going to happen. All of my arguments have been based on not being able to judge team's "Will and Determination." Griffdawg, although I love him to death as a hockey fan and fellow U2 fan - is fancentric (I like that word). grifdawg/canucks

Quote:
Originally posted by cujo
- Zonelistener, your name is very misleading.
You lost me at Zonelistener. Help me out there. (If it is in reference to the "zone" style of play, I'm not a fan either way. If it is for he Listener part....


Hey, after the Stanley Cup, in NHL and good sportmanship tradition, we have to skate through the line and shake hands!
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Old 05-17-2003, 01:56 AM   #165
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Well the Wild finally scored a goal... how you say? Traffic in front of the net. Sheesh, even a mediocre columnist such as myself could deduce that... they actually showed some determination... when the Ducks were in the penalty box. Surely, the world must be ending, because isn't that what I told them to do... Doug Risebrough of course I'll coach the Wild next season

PS- Of course I'll shake hands, but I'm gonna get in all the shots I can before that line forms... see you at center ice zoner!
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