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Old 03-13-2008, 09:15 AM   #826
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Though, to be fair, I think Adam was doing some very interesting stuff by the Pop album and I'm quite disappointed he's seemingly cast that to one side in the decade since.
Disappointed in a member of U2's output this decade? You?! Nooo...
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Old 03-13-2008, 09:16 AM   #827
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(El, Yah, Jehovah, etc are all taken now to be "facets" of God - but could it just be the remnants of polytheism?)
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Old 03-13-2008, 09:16 AM   #828
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This "seed in the dirt of Christ" thing is basically one hundo percent true, by the way. That sort of thing appeals to rural areas because of all the farming and gardening. I swear, at least two or three sermons I've nearly fallen asleep through at AoG churches have been exactly like that! And they never really got to any conclusion, either. Their orators are surprisingly bad for being evangelists.
Wow. Just ... wow.

My favourite evangelical sermons are those that sound highly erotic - often homoerotic - and the preacher is completely oblivious. Seemingly, anyway. But we've all seen what the truth was with certain high profile American preachers ...
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Old 03-13-2008, 09:17 AM   #829
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Buddhism might be the way for you then. I can't claim to know a lot about it, (despite being a Buddhist once ) but the Eightfold Path is one that rejects violence and "sin" until one reaches Nirvana, right?
I know it's not what you meant, but I read that and thought, "So once you attain Nirvana, you get to sin all you want?"



I wish I could give this discussion the attention it deserves...

AliTheology 101:

Meaning of life = make more life

Meaning of consciousness = ... much more tricky.

I read a quote somewhere that said, "All God wants is everything you've got", or something like that. I may have to read that book again, if I'm thinking of the right one...
Anyway, I thought, "Why?" Why would an all-powerful, all-knowing God want ANYTHING from us? Maybe my idea of a deity is of one that doesn't feel the need for millenia/an eternity of worship for having created the Earth...

On the point of God being lonely/fallible... is loneliness a flaw? I would consider a being who was all alone in the vast nothingness and who didn't feel lonely to be somewhat flawed.
On the other hand, if you were the only being that has ever existed, would you be able to even conceive of the idea of having company? Of course, God being God would be able to...
Fair point on the unfulfilled thing, whoever mentioned that...

My thought is that a human, at least, who is 100% happy, will generally not feel the urge to do anything, much. Certainly not something as ambitious and grandiose as creating the universe and all the life in it. And making some of that life sentient, too! Whole can of worms, right there.
And if humans were created in God's image...?

(random aside - I love South Park's take on God.)

Yay, incoherent rambling from someone who doesn't believe in anything, one way or another.

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Old 03-13-2008, 09:17 AM   #830
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Uh, I'm not actually too sure at the moment if that's the Eightfold Path. I have learned most of Buddhism from one of my friends, who's right into it, though he's also very much a polytheist (not just restricted to the Bodhisattva). I like Buddhism a lot, but I'm not sure I want to labeled as anything in particular these days. Even calling myself an Agnostic doesn't seem right sometimes.
Fair enough. Have you looked into, say, the Baha'i stuff, or Zen?
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Old 03-13-2008, 09:19 AM   #831
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There's a book that exposes more about what goes on behind Hillsong, it was released last year. "People in Glass Houses", by an ex-AoGer named Tanya Levin. I haven't read much of it yet, but I thought it may be of your interest, to both of you.
Ooh, yes, I heard about this. I should check to see if the uni library has it - I'm sure they've got a few copies.

I also wonder if The God Delusion is finally available, or if it's still got ten million holds placed on it ...
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Ian McCulloch the U2 fan:
"Who buys U2 records anyway? It's just music for plumbers and bricklayers. Bono, what a slob. You'd think with all that climbing about he does, he'd look real fit and that. But he's real fat, y'know. Reminds me of a soddin' mountain goat."
"And as for Bono, he needs a colostomy bag for his mouth."

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Old 03-13-2008, 09:19 AM   #832
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Originally posted by Alisaura

On the point of God being lonely/fallible... is loneliness a flaw? I would consider a being who was all alone in the vast nothingness and who didn't feel lonely to be somewhat flawed.
On the other hand, if you were the only being that has ever existed, would you be able to even conceive of the idea of having company? Of course, God being God would be able to...
This, ladies and gentlemen, is what I would call a brilliant insight, and a great question to ponder on for long hours.
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Old 03-13-2008, 09:22 AM   #833
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That's spot on. Hillsong disturbs me. Genuinely disturbs me. Manipulating some of the most personal beliefs of people for financial gain is sickening.

I must admit, I think we're currently living in the most interesting period in Christian - indeed, general religious - history, as it comes to terms with a post-Enlightenment reality. I can't remember if I have argued this in your presence before, but I am coming to believe religion may be entering its terminal decline. The way the church deals with a post-religious society over the coming decades will be quite interesting.
YES. The church (well, the parts of it that I know about) are well aware of this and are preparing for a massive fight.

I think that the Secular Age is going to come soon. Which is a bit sad and a bit exciting in equal parts really - sad when you consider that 6000+ years of human belief will be dropped, but exciting when you consider that we'll be going deep into uncharted territory and probably coming up with whole new ideas and concepts.

I'd say that the church would evolve and adapt to the new ideas. It has to, in order to survive. Even the Vatican is beginning to now - note how "pollution" is one of the 14 all-new deadly sins!
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Old 03-13-2008, 09:24 AM   #834
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Ooh, yes, I heard about this. I should check to see if the uni library has it - I'm sure they've got a few copies.

I also wonder if The God Delusion is finally available, or if it's still got ten million holds placed on it ...
I've heard about it as well, and read a few articles on it. I despise Hillsong and the shadow that they cast on my church, to be honest - people hear us playing their music and are immediately turned away.

And dude, just go buy the book, or I'll get it for you for your birthday or something. I should go get a copy too, I've always wanted to read it, although I've heard that it's a bit of a disappointment.
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Old 03-13-2008, 09:24 AM   #835
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Baha'i actually was a serious consideration, and still is. My only gripes are really that it's a little too new, and that you have to be completely sober. Not even the Qur'an preaches that - despite the laws of theocratic Middle Eastern countries, alcohol is only prohibited in excess.

There is a Baha'i centre not too far away that I was thinking of visiting sometime.

I haven't studied Zen much. Only the Zen Arcade album by Husker Du.
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Old 03-13-2008, 09:25 AM   #836
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It's not that bad where I go to church, thank God - we're doing a series in our Young Adults group on the theology of God, which is interesting.
Ah, cool. I attended a few sessions of my friends' youth group things on the Gold Coast, and ... the less said, the better. It was one of those "let's play silly games in the name of Christ" bullshit with no theology in sight. I even asked them beforehand if it was serious religion, not just some kids running around, and they said yes. Apparently a brief talk about the importance of prayer was good enough for them.

The worst part for me was that one of the prayer requests one week I went was for a "Mrs Bean" who had a car accident. I got an image of a cross-dressing Rowan Atkinson rolling that Mini of his. I was sitting there, shaking with laughter, trying not to make a sound.

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I love that about Catholics, but they take their saints waaay too seriously sometimes. The only things that I really disagree with them as a neutral Protestant Christian are their worship of Mary and their claim to be the sole true church of Christ through apostolic succession.
Yeah, I was never down on the whole saints thing, and it was one of the biggest factors why I always identified as Protestant. I do think too many Protestants incorrectly understand the Catholic view on Mary or wilfully distort it, but in turn, I'm quite uncomfortable with the vehemence that Catholic doctrine asserts Mary's permanent virginity as if that actually matters!
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Ian McCulloch the U2 fan:
"Who buys U2 records anyway? It's just music for plumbers and bricklayers. Bono, what a slob. You'd think with all that climbing about he does, he'd look real fit and that. But he's real fat, y'know. Reminds me of a soddin' mountain goat."
"And as for Bono, he needs a colostomy bag for his mouth."

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Old 03-13-2008, 09:27 AM   #837
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Disappointed in a member of U2's output this decade? You?! Nooo...
ZOMG HUT DAB 4 TEH WINZ0RZ LARY IS TEH BEST DRUMMA!!!1!!ONEoneisgreat
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Ian McCulloch the U2 fan:
"Who buys U2 records anyway? It's just music for plumbers and bricklayers. Bono, what a slob. You'd think with all that climbing about he does, he'd look real fit and that. But he's real fat, y'know. Reminds me of a soddin' mountain goat."
"And as for Bono, he needs a colostomy bag for his mouth."

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Old 03-13-2008, 09:29 AM   #838
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I'm quite uncomfortable with the vehemence that Catholic doctrine asserts Mary's permanent virginity as if that actually matters!
Dude, didn't you know? Sex is EEEEEVIL.
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Old 03-13-2008, 09:31 AM   #839
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Baha'i actually was a serious consideration, and still is. My only gripes are really that it's a little too new, and that you have to be completely sober. Not even the Qur'an preaches that - despite the laws of theocratic Middle Eastern countries, alcohol is only prohibited in excess.

There is a Baha'i centre not too far away that I was thinking of visiting sometime.

I haven't studied Zen much. Only the Zen Arcade album by Husker Du.
I'll be honest here and say I know relatively little about either, just trying to help you find yourself, or rather trying to help you find a path that makes sense to you
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Old 03-13-2008, 09:31 AM   #840
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I like Buddhism a lot, but I'm not sure I want to labeled as anything in particular these days. Even calling myself an Agnostic doesn't seem right sometimes.
Buddhism is quite possibly the religion I respect the most, all things considered. I could never be a Buddhist though. Its practices simply don't suit me.

I've wondered if I am perhaps an atheist rather than an agnostic. But I'm not comfortable with the label of atheist. I am, perhaps, strictly a weak atheist, but the line betweeen weak atheism and agnosticism is hopelessly blurred anyway. I love being an agnostic.

When you come to Melbourne later this year, you, the Maj., and I should totally go out, get a bottle of good wine and some nibbles, and sit around having a theological discussion. All my life I've wanted to have an intelligent and open minded discussion about religion with a group of people my age ... all the folks I knew on the Gold Coast were either too absorbed in their almost fundie Christianity or simply didn't care for religion.
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Ian McCulloch the U2 fan:
"Who buys U2 records anyway? It's just music for plumbers and bricklayers. Bono, what a slob. You'd think with all that climbing about he does, he'd look real fit and that. But he's real fat, y'know. Reminds me of a soddin' mountain goat."
"And as for Bono, he needs a colostomy bag for his mouth."

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