Vegans and their pets

[Butterscotch]

Since so many of you here have mentioned being veggie, or vegan, I was wondering if you could answer this for me. What do you do with your pet? Or do you not want a pet if you have to feed him meat, and have you ever gotten rid of your pet because you didn't want to feed him meat? I hope not, but I have heard a lot of this and it's worrying me. I hate to think there may be cats and dogs not taken as pets, or even gotten rid of, because of an anti-meat stand taken by the owners. First let me say I do respect the decisions of anyone to eat or not eat what they want. I am just interested to know how this has or has not affected you and your pet personally. I would like to hear the different stories. I would say that dry food would be a good option, since it's mostly grain and doesn't look or smell like meat? But there is no way to convert dogs and cats over because they are for the most part carnivores not omnivores like people and there are things in meat they need to survive. Any stories or input on this?

 

[ylimeU2]

Growing up, we had a neighbor who was vegan and she refused to feed her dog anything with meat in it. The dog clearly had some health problems. It was underweight and didn't seem very energetic (even though it was a young dog). One night, my dad noticed the woman hitting the dog. He questioned what was going on, and apparently, the dog had found some meat for itself the neighbor was unhappy about it. My dad called the county and she was investigated for animal abuse, and if I remember correctly, the dog was taken away and the woman was fined for neglect.

I was a vegetarian for a number of years. But I don't think it is right to inflict that on a pet, especially a carnivore. Humans can make a conscious choice, animals can't. I'm sure there is probably a way to correctly balance a diet for a pet, but I still don't think it is fair to them.

 

[SeattleVertigo]

I think it's easier for dogs to be vegetarian -- they'll eat anything (but be sure to read up on the list of foods you should not feed dogs, like chocolate and onions).

Different vegetarians handle it differently. Some are comfortable feeding their pets meat, some are not. I had a vegetarian housemate who fed her dog, Sierra, dry mix (meat-based). She also occasionally fed her venison (her dad hunted occasionally). Sierra loved all kinds of food, though -- she went nuts over tofu or fake meats.

Cats, I hear, have more of a nutritional need for meat in their diets than dogs, but some vegetarians feed their cats a vegetarian diet along with supplements.

If I were a pet owner, I'd definitely look for alternatives to conventional pet food. The pet food industry is pretty nasty.

 

[melon]

I think it's easier for dogs to be vegetarian -- they'll eat anything (but be sure to read up on the list of foods you should not feed dogs, like chocolate and onions).

Not all dogs. Some--like my own--generally dislike carbohydrates and won't eat vegetables.

 

[Vincent Vega]

I've heard of vegetarians or vegans feeding their cats/dogs only vegetarian food.

Some cat owners insisted their cats felt as healthy as any cat, but also refused to believe that when the cat is out on herself she might be catching some mice, rats or whatever without her owner noticing.

As vegetarians here have pointed out you can substitute meat with other things as long as you watch your diet more closely as to make sure you get all the nutrtionists you otherwise would have gotten through the meat.
I don't know to what extent that works with animals like cats or dogs since their bodies are different and hence they might rely on meat more strongly than people.
It's not as much a conscious decision as it is just a basic need. And denying an animal what it needs only to satisfy ones own beliefs is in my eyes cruelty very close to torturing the animal.

 

[yolland]

I'm not a vegetarian so I haven't researched this extensively, but there are vegan pet foods commercially available for both dogs and cats (as SeattleVertigo touched on, cats on such foods usually require a supplement containing certain amino acids, fatty acids and vitamins, which cats, unlike dogs, can't synthesize on their own from plant proteins). I could be wrong, but my guess is that such diets are no worse than the ones most pet owners are already feeding their pets to begin with. You're already feeding them an unnatural diet anyway by offering them canned pet food or kibble made with ingredients convenient for the manufacturers, rather than letting them hunt or scavenge for themselves.

Especially in the case of cats though, I think if you're determined to try this route with your pets, then you owe it to them to make sure their vet is aware of the situation and monitoring them to ensure there are no signs of nutritional deficiency. There are also pet foods made with free-range meats and/or sustainably caught fish available, which could be another 'more ecofriendly' option.

 

[Liesje]

I could be wrong, but my guess is that such diets are no worse than the ones most pet owners are already feeding their pets to begin with.

IMO, this is true. Foods like Iams, Friskies, Pedigree, even Science Diet - basically whatever is found at Target and other grocery stores really have no business being pet food. Diet is hugely responsible for so many aspects of an animal's health, but many pet owners don't even know the signs of poor diet (if your dog smells, if the coat is dry and not shiny....dogs and cat should not smell and should never need baths unless they get into something).

I would NEVER consider feeding my dog or cats a veggie diet, but it can be done, IF you are feeding raw/homecooked food. You would have to know a ton about proteins and how each material is digested and metabolized to do it, though. I would guess that you'd have to use a grain protein source (like the poor quality foods use - corn gluten meal, etc) and those sources of protein really are not natural or healthy for animals, though it can be done. I know one person who tried. She is a veggie and her dog had many health issues so the dog needed a specialized homecooked diet anyway. It was a major failure and now both of her dogs eat raw/homecooked diets that include raw meat.

Ideally, dogs and cats should eat grain-free foods. At the very least, they should not be eating commercial foods that contain and corn, wheat, soy or either of those as a gluten meal.

ETA: As far as the research I've done, this site offers the best and most objective analysis and review of dog kibble. I personally do not feed anything that's not 4/6 or better and all of my dog's kibble is supplemented with extra things she needs (yogurt as a probiotic to prevent ear infections, canned sardine for omega-3s to keep her coat in condition, additional meat that I am eating, and raw eggs).
http://www.dogfoodanalysis.com/dog_food_reviews/

 

[Butterscotch]

It's not as much a conscious decision as it is just a basic need. And denying an animal what it needs only to satisfy ones own beliefs is in my eyes cruelty very close to torturing the animal.

That is pretty much what I was thinking, it can be cruelty to the animal to deprive it of nutrients it needs and food it enjoys. The whole paradox here is that one of the main reasons people go vegan is because of animal rights issues, yet by harming our most precious animals, domestic pets, it's defeated that purpose. I don't like to think how many pets have been malnourished, or even given to the pound to be killed, because someone couldn't feed them meat. So they saved a cow, and hurt their most faithful friend. I hope that doesn't happen much, and I do applaud those who search for alternatives, though I am sure it must be costly and a lot of trouble. It's even better if a person can bring themself to feed the animal meat anyway even though they're against it.

I remember reading a story about how Paul McCartney's dogs got so fed up with their veggie diet they went on a wild spree and started killing the chickens on the farm. Like some of you have said, with humans it's a conscious choice, but animals don't understand that, and nature rules their hunger, so their old instincts might just kick back in when they feel desperate.

Liesje, you say you don't feed your animals pet food? What do you do, cook for them? I'm serious, I see you have a very large dog and several cats. What do you do? Feed them sardines and real 'people' meat?

 

[indra]

Life is rarely black and white. I can live quite nicely and inexpensively on a vegetarian diet, but it's a lot harder for my cats and dog to do the same so they don't get a vegetarian diet. If I was wealthy enough to provide them with vegetarian diets -- either custom or commercial -- I would do that, but it isn't an option. Because no one else wanted them virtually all my cats' and many of my dogs' options were: 1) constant hunger, untreated illnesses/injuries, and an early death living as a stray; 2) capture and euthanasia; 3) live with me and get vet care and basic commercial pet food. My critters are generally happy, healthy (essentially -- a couple do have some health issues, but they are elderly and their problems are mostly age related), and long lived.

I can live with that.

 

[clarityat3am]

I feed my dog Wellness (canned and dry), because it's a meat based pet food without all the nasty commercial pet food crap in it. I also subscribe to a raw feeding community on Livejournal, and from what I read there, you can feed you pet (not just cats and dogs) better and in the long run (according to most of them) more cheaply than with commercial dog foods. I'd feed raw too, but I don't have the freezer space to do it properly right now. I don't think carnivorous or even omnivorous animals should be forced to eat a vegan diet.

 

[indra]

I remember reading a story about how Paul McCartney's dogs got so fed up with their veggie diet they went on a wild spree and started killing the chickens on the farm. Like some of you have said, with humans it's a conscious choice, but animals don't understand that, and nature rules their hunger, so their old instincts might just kick back in when they feel desperate.

I seriously doubt the reason the dogs started chasing and killing the chickens was because they were fed up with their diet. Let's face it, for a dog chasing and killing stuff is exciting and fun. And chasing and catching chickens has a very high "woohoo! what fun!" factor for dogs. They run around crazily, squawk, flap their wings -- it's like party time for dogs.

 

[redhotswami]

I feed my dog Wellness (canned and dry), because it's a meat based pet food without all the nasty commercial pet food crap in it. I also subscribe to a raw feeding community on Livejournal, and from what I read there, you can feed you pet (not just cats and dogs) better and in the long run (according to most of them) more cheaply than with commercial dog foods. I'd feed raw too, but I don't have the freezer space to do it properly right now. I don't think carnivorous or even omnivorous animals should be forced to eat a vegan diet.

can you tell me more about the raw feeding community? i'm a veggie and i hate cooking/touching meat...so i'm sort of reluctant to do that.

oh and i'm a pescetarian, but i feed my dog meat. i'm very picky about what dog food and treats he gets. reading the stuff on the bags really scares me.

 

[clarityat3am]

can you tell me more about the raw feeding community? i'm a veggie and i hate cooking/touching meat...so i'm sort of reluctant to do that.

oh and i'm a pescetarian, but i feed my dog meat. i'm very picky about what dog food and treats he gets. reading the stuff on the bags really scares me.

http://community.livejournal.com/rawdogs/profile

 

[Liesje]

can you tell me more about the raw feeding community? i'm a veggie and i hate cooking/touching meat...so i'm sort of reluctant to do that.

oh and i'm a pescetarian, but i feed my dog meat. i'm very picky about what dog food and treats he gets. reading the stuff on the bags really scares me.

Mia, you can also buy pre-made raw diets. Nature's Variety has one and it's pretty much one of the most amazing dog foods ever. Problem is, it's far more expensive to feed pre-made raw than make raw, and most people feeding raw do it in part b/c it ends up being cheaper.

 

[ylimeU2]

Life is rarely black and white. I can live quite nicely and inexpensively on a vegetarian diet, but it's a lot harder for my cats and dog to do the same so they don't get a vegetarian diet. If I was wealthy enough to provide them with vegetarian diets -- either custom or commercial -- I would do that, but it isn't an option. Because no one else wanted them virtually all my cats' and many of my dogs' options were: 1) constant hunger, untreated illnesses/injuries, and an early death living as a stray; 2) capture and euthanasia; 3) live with me and get vet care and basic commercial pet food. My critters are generally happy, healthy (essentially -- a couple do have some health issues, but they are elderly and their problems are mostly age related), and long lived.

I can live with that.

I didn't mean imply that it can't or shouldn't be done with my first reply. I was a vegatarian for moral reasons, but I think meat eating animals should have meat. But whatever anyone's choice, at the end of the day, I agree with Indra. The most important thing is the health and happiness of the animal.

 

[Lancemc]

Not feeding your dog or cat meat makes so little sense it boggles my mind.

 

[Vincent Vega]

Next thing is people go to Africa to teach lions etc. not to eat antelopes and zebras.

 

[TranceEnding]

And chasing and catching chickens has a very high "woohoo! what fun!" factor for dogs. They run around crazily, squawk, flap their wings -- it's like party time for dogs.

sorry, too hard not to laugh at that! Though, if I caught my doggies chasing and harming chickens, I'd be horrified, even though, it's just a natural instinct.

Well, my kitty is a pescatarian... LOL She refuses to eat any meat except tuna or 'seafood' kitty food. She's got a fantastic shiny coat for it anyway, all those omega 3's

 

[Angela Harlem]

IMO, this is true. Foods like Iams, Friskies, Pedigree, even Science Diet - basically whatever is found at Target and other grocery stores really have no business being pet food. [/url]

You put Hills Science Diet, and to an extent, Iams, in the same league as Friskies, et al? Science Diet is a veterinarian recommended brand here. Iams is more an overall better but still general branded food, but Science Diet is a premium cat and dog food which is not available in supermarkets and general pet departments. It's only sold in warehouse pet supplies and from your vet clinic itself over here.

 

[Liesje]

You put Hills Science Diet, and to an extent, Iams, in the same league as Friskies, et al? Science Diet is a veterinarian recommended brand here. Iams is more an overall better but still general branded food, but Science Diet is a premium cat and dog food which is not available in supermarkets and general pet departments. It's only sold in warehouse pet supplies and from your vet clinic itself over here.

SD is vet recommended here to as well, however it's not a premium food. It's considerably over priced considering the ingredients. I do not consider anything that contains corn, wheat, or soy to be anywhere near premium. I don't care how many people recommended or how it's priced, a food with these in the first line of ingredients is not premium: "Brewers Rice, Rice Flour, Ground Whole Grain Wheat, Ground Whole Grain Sorghum, Corn Gluten Meal, Cracked Pearled Barley..." Those are cheap/poor sources of protein at best, unhealthy fillers is more like it. Also, the protein levels are way below what I find acceptable for a performance dog. Out of 6 stars, Dog Food Analysis gives Science Diet 1 star. Generally, 3-4 stars is called premium and 5-6 starts is super premium. Before getting Kenya, I spent some time researching nutrition and getting opinions from some people that specialize in animal nutrition (a vet is not a nutritionist and is often not the best person to consult with specific questions regarding nutrition) and did a total overhaul of all of my pets' diets. My cats cannot go completely grain-free b/c grain-free food is actually TOO nutritious/dense for them and upsets their stomachs. Right now they are on Eagle Pack Holistic, which is cheaper than Science Diet (at least here) and FAR better. The dog is on food rotation to prevent allergies, meaning her food changes every 2-3 months and each new food contains a totally different protein and carb source than the previous (food A is chicken and rice, food B is salmon, beef, and potato, and food C is yet to be decided). Right now she is on a totally grain-free food. The other food in her rotation does contain rice, but has a high protein content and is super-premium food. The stores here do not carry it, but I found one store that carries another type of the same brand and they will order the kind I want whenever I want it. I wanted to switch, but she does best on this particular food (it's what she was eating before I got her).

 

[melon]

I do not consider anything that contains corn, wheat, or soy to be anywhere near premium. I don't care how many people recommended or how it's priced, a food with these in the first line of ingredients is not premium: "Brewers Rice, Rice Flour, Ground Whole Grain Wheat, Ground Whole Grain Sorghum, Corn Gluten Meal, Cracked Pearled Barley..." Those are cheap/poor sources of protein at best, unhealthy fillers is more like it.

My dog now eats an organic dog food that contains no corn, etc. at all. I've had these concerns myself for a very long time, and I see a substantial change in my dog by switching to a better food.

 

[Liesje]

Oh, also, with a premium or super-premium grain-free food the cost evens out b/c you can feed less. The food is more nutritiously dense (higher Kcals). My cats eat less than 1/2 cup a day and the full grown German Shepherd eats 2 cups of food per day.

 

[samralf]

ETA: As far as the research I've done, this site offers the best and most objective analysis and review of dog kibble. I personally do not feed anything that's not 4/6 or better and all of my dog's kibble is supplemented with extra things she needs (yogurt as a probiotic to prevent ear infections, canned sardine for omega-3s to keep her coat in condition, additional meat that I am eating, and raw eggs).
http://www.dogfoodanalysis.com/dog_food_reviews/


Who are the people doing the research?? How are they qualified to rate dog food? I feed Charlie Prescription Diet Z/D because he has SEVERE allergies. I did read the label on his food and thought the chemicals listed were bad but not as bad as they say. Now what do I do? I don't want to feed my dog crap.

 

[Liesje]

With allergies and special conditions, it's much trickier. Beckham doesn't have a specific allergy, but a very irritable stomach, and I'm not ashamed to say he ate Science Diet for 2.5 years b/c for whatever reason that was the food he could keep down. Just recently I FINALLY found a good cat food he will keep down (well, the other day he barfed 5 times, but I found dead maple leaves in the barf!!). Kenya's diet is designed mainly to avoid allergies at all costs. That's one of the huge drawbacks of low quality commercial food - you feed it long enough and the dog can easily develop allergies b/c they all use poultry by-products and grain gluten meals. Many people don't realize it's important to rotate the meat and carb sources every few months. There are also many symptoms of allergies people don't notice (itching is not always fleas, ear infections are not always bacteria, a smelly dog doesn't always mean he just needs a bath...).

Do you know which ingredients he is allergic to? Most dogs are allergic to poultry and/or the grains (corn, wheat, gluten meals, etc). An acquaintance of mine had a GSD with such bad allergies she had to have cream baths twice a week and ate a homecooked diet of Ostrich meat and sweet potatoes. I know some people with allergy or IBS dogs like California Natural b/c it is a very simple food, not many ingredients, but you have to find a variety with ingredients the dog is not already allergic to. At the shelter, we feed allergy dogs "duck and potato" food (again, b/c they are almost always allergic to poultry and grain).

I looked at the Z/D and it looks pretty serious, they are right, there is really nothing there for the dog to be allergic to. With a dog that is allergic to pretty much every commercial protein and grain source, this food looks like the most logical step. The trick is if you're not sure exactly what the dog is allergic to and whether you want to try to find out. My worry with the Z/D is that the Kcals are VERY low, so the dog is hardly getting any nutrients or energy from the food. But again, with severe allergies the options are very limited.

 

[samralf]

Charlie is allergic to wheat and dairy. He used to have ear infections, scratched all the time (he couldn't walk across the room to chase a ball without stopping to scratch 5 or 6 times EACH way). It was horrible. We did allergy testing for him and now he's on allergy shots. His itching has stopped, so thats good. We stopped giving him treats, rawhide(that REALLY makes him sick), and people food and his ear infections cleared up. As for food we started him on Eukanuba Kangaroo and that worked really well but he started barfing up foam so we switched to Z/D. Our vet told us we have to keep switching foods because they develop allergies but he talks like we should wait for him to develop the allergy then switch rather than switch before he develops an allergy. I think the vet likes Z/D because the chicken is already broken down and that makes it easier for Charlie to digest.

 

[Tania]

ETA: As far as the research I've done, this site offers the best and most objective analysis and review of dog kibble. I personally do not feed anything that's not 4/6 or better and all of my dog's kibble is supplemented with extra things she needs (yogurt as a probiotic to prevent ear infections, canned sardine for omega-3s to keep her coat in condition, additional meat that I am eating, and raw eggs).
http://www.dogfoodanalysis.com/dog_food_reviews/


Who are the people doing the research?? How are they qualified to rate dog food? I feed Charlie Prescription Diet Z/D because he has SEVERE allergies. I did read the label on his food and thought the chemicals listed were bad but not as bad as they say. Now what do I do? I don't want to feed my dog crap.

Your questions regarding that website and who does the research and how are they qualified to rate dog food, I think, are very valid.

I had a quick look at the 6 star rating products and had to laugh at the descriptions used for some of the ingredients "fresh caught Northern Whitefish", "Tonic Herbs and Botanticals". I think that a lot of this guff is there to make pet owners feel guilty and quite frankly it is ridiculous as apart from going and watching the process of making that particular dog food, how do you know it is fresh caught Northern Whitefish and not some other fish that was available that day? And blackcurrents? What's with that? Anyone fed their dog blackcurrents lately?

However, if your pet eats that brand of dog food, does well on it and is not reacting to any of the ingredients, why not feed it? After all, isn't that what we want, healthy pets who live comfortably and happily?

Also, someone said that the whole grains were mainly a source of protein in these diets. Whole grains are a carbohydrate source and in most of the diets I have looked at, including the "raw" diets there is good argument for including some carbohydrate.

In the wild carnivores eat primarily herbivores. For a herbivore to provide itself with enough energy, they must eat constantly. So, a carnivore will get a "stomach load" of carbohydrate every time it catches it's dinner and as they have the ability to break these down (just not as efficiently as a herbivore) they are a viable source of energy.

My parents and I have had five dogs, German Shepherd's and Labs. All have lived to middle teens and all have been fed a diet consisting of canned food, dry food, vegetables (two used to go and raid the veggy garden every chance they got), meat scraps, raw bones, rice, chicken, eggs and the odd scoop of icecream (yeah, well we all like a bit of junk food now and again). Personally, I think diet, exercise, comfort and a lot of attention are all just as important and help to keep a dog "young".

 

[Liesje]

I had a quick look at the 6 star rating products and had to laugh at the descriptions used for some of the ingredients "fresh caught Northern Whitefish", "Tonic Herbs and Botanticals". I think that a lot of this guff is there to make pet owners feel guilty and quite frankly it is ridiculous as apart from going and watching the process of making that particular dog food, how do you know it is fresh caught Northern Whitefish and not some other fish that was available that day? And blackcurrents? What's with that? Anyone fed their dog blackcurrents lately?

It's not only ingredients that matter (and typically, the first 5 or so ingredients make up 95% of the food, so I don't consider anything beyond that unless I'm looking for something specific that I do or don't want), but the protein levels, Kcals, and presence or lack of certain ingredients that are harmful (certain preservatives). The 6-star foods will have more than twice as much min. protein than the 1 stars. If you have questions about specific ingredients, you can call the company and ask to speak with a rep. If I ever have trouble getting specific questions answered, I move on to the next brand of food. There are some brands that make excellent food that I will not consider b/c their reps are too vague, secretive, or just not helpful at all.

I also prefer foods with a certain level of carbohydrate and also use foods containing rice while some people advocate for entirely grain-free, but I don't find corn gluten meal an acceptable source of carb or protein (gluten IS a source of protein).

 

[anitram]

My parents cook for the dog and they did for the dog before him as well. My Mom is disgusted by all dog food, and Samson gets a lot of fish, meat, olive oil, quinoa and some grains like millet and bulgur mixed in (still need carbs for the brain).

 

[Butterscotch]

If I was wealthy enough to provide them with vegetarian diets -- either custom or commercial -- I would do that, but it isn't an option. Because no one else wanted them virtually all my cats' and many of my dogs' options were: 1) constant hunger, untreated illnesses/injuries, and an early death living as a stray; 2) capture and euthanasia; 3) live with me and get vet care and basic commercial pet food. My critters are generally happy, healthy (essentially -- a couple do have some health issues, but they are elderly and their problems are mostly age related), and long lived.

I can live with that.

I agree with you Indra #3 is just fine. Good for you for taking in those animals.

 

[indra]

sorry, too hard not to laugh at that! Though, if I caught my doggies chasing and harming chickens, I'd be horrified, even though, it's just a natural instinct.

Well, my kitty is a pescatarian... LOL She refuses to eat any meat except tuna or 'seafood' kitty food. She's got a fantastic shiny coat for it anyway, all those omega 3's

It is funny! I'd be horrified if my dogs ever actually maimed/killed any chickens too, but they haven't.

One day we were at a farm visiting a horse we had just purchased and all of a sudden there was this big commotion in one of the barns and a several chickens came blasting out the door followed by this little black, brown and white streak. Turns out our vet's (the vet was a family friend and the son of the farm owners) partially paralyzed beagle Sally loved to chase chickens and doing just that! Sally couldn't use her hind legs but she could move very quickly for short distances and she made the most of those little bursts. The chickens were never in any danger of being caught, but their reaction sure provide that little dog with quite a rush. She was very proud of herself, and we all had a good laugh.

And most of the cats I feed (mine, several strays, and sometimes my brother's two) all have favourite cat food flavours. There have been times when I will give a cat a variety it doesn't really like and it will look at me with this "I don't really like that flavour. What else do you have?" look. Since I'm usually feeding up to 14 cats I try a different flavour -- I figure someone else will want it! :

I agree with you Indra #3 is just fine. Good for you for taking in those animals.

Thanks. I swear they all know where the suckers live, and my name must be right at the top of the list.



I am surprised by all the pets with allergy issues and/or food sensitivities. I guess part of it is that when the subject comes up the people who's pets have those problems discuss it. I kind of wonder if allergies are more common in purebreds than in mutts. I've had mostly mutts/mixed breeds/purebreds not from "real" breeders, but haven't ever had problems with allergies with any of them. I wonder if the more restricted gene pool of purebreds -- especially those with breeders who are producing a very specific type of dog within the breed -- has anything to do with this. Of course you do the best you can for the animal you have, but I can't help but wonder if a good deal of the allergy problems are genetic rather than food based.