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Old 05-17-2008, 02:25 AM   #406
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Originally posted by Screwtape2


How are you not understanding this? They did what is just. You can't ask anymore of them. They acted as a force of justice.


They got no results. They did not influence the decisions made.
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"And as for Bono, he needs a colostomy bag for his mouth."

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Old 05-17-2008, 02:26 AM   #407
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So what's really going on here is a bit of a circle jerk.
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Old 05-17-2008, 02:28 AM   #408
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Quote:
Originally posted by Axver




They got no results. They did not influence the decisions made.
They didn't have to. They showed that the action was wrong. They acted as a force of justice.
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Old 05-17-2008, 02:28 AM   #409
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Originally posted by coolian2
So what's really going on here is a bit of a circle jerk.


I'm starting to feel like Screwtape and I are talking past each other a bit.
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Ian McCulloch the U2 fan:
"Who buys U2 records anyway? It's just music for plumbers and bricklayers. Bono, what a slob. You'd think with all that climbing about he does, he'd look real fit and that. But he's real fat, y'know. Reminds me of a soddin' mountain goat."
"And as for Bono, he needs a colostomy bag for his mouth."

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Old 05-17-2008, 02:29 AM   #410
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Originally posted by Axver
[B]

Its main influence on me was the whole "do unto others as you would have done unto you" thing - which I still hold as a secular virtue and which underpins basically my entire political ideology. It's why I'm a pacifist. A weak pacifist (i.e. I believe violence used in self-defence is legitimate), but a pacifist nonetheless.


Oh, wait...I'm a (rather leftist) Republican. Forgot about the requisite bloodlust for a minute there.

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I'm torn on abortion in a way I have found unreconcilable thus far, simply because the debate is so heated and contested that I don't feel I have adequate facts to reconcile my competing attitudes. On the one hand, I accept all the arguments of women's rights. On the other hand, as a pacifist, I place an incredibly high value on human life and oppose any action that will take life without the consent of the individual (in other words, I support euthenasia but not the death penalty). I have yet to ascertain when life begins, not being a scientist, and the heated debate about when it begins just leaves me more confused, so that throws a massive spanner in the works. Do I err on the side of caution and refuse to take what may be a life ... or what? I don't know. Since the debate has little personal relevance to me, I keep my distance for now.
I think that's a solid viewpoint (or lack thereof). I figure, at some point, the mother should have complete control over what happens to her. This is why I believe it should remain legal. Problem is, like you, I want the baby to be safe. And yes, it may just be a blob of cells for now, but in all likelihood the baby will one day become a human being, one that craves love and deserves to have a life, just like anyone else. It's a painful subject, isn't it? Hmm.
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Old 05-17-2008, 02:29 AM   #411
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Quote:
Originally posted by Screwtape2


They didn't have to. They showed that the action was wrong. They acted as a force of justice.
SO WHAT?

This is what I've been saying all along. People look at protest movements and say "so what?"
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Ian McCulloch the U2 fan:
"Who buys U2 records anyway? It's just music for plumbers and bricklayers. Bono, what a slob. You'd think with all that climbing about he does, he'd look real fit and that. But he's real fat, y'know. Reminds me of a soddin' mountain goat."
"And as for Bono, he needs a colostomy bag for his mouth."

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Old 05-17-2008, 02:33 AM   #412
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Can we move past this activist stuff?

It's just going around in circles now. And i don't think abortion is a great topic to move onto because i have the same confused views as Ax and LM.
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Old 05-17-2008, 02:35 AM   #413
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Quote:
Originally posted by Axver


SO WHAT?

This is what I've been saying all along. People look at protest movements and say "so what?"
They acted as a force of justice.

They were being noble. If you can't respect that then I don't think you understand what being noble is.
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Old 05-17-2008, 02:36 AM   #414
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Quote:
Originally posted by coolian2
Can we move past this activist stuff?

It's just going around in circles now. And i don't think abortion is a great topic to move onto because i have the same confused views as Ax and LM.
Yeah, it's basically glorified spam at this point. I've certainly said my piece by now, as have you.
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Old 05-17-2008, 02:36 AM   #415
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Originally posted by LemonMelon
Oh, wait...I'm a (rather leftist) Republican. Forgot about the requisite bloodlust for a minute there.
And the hatred of poor people and the sexism and racism ...

But seriously, you seem keen on Mr Obama. Obama vs McCain, where do you fall?

Quote:
I think that's a solid viewpoint (or lack thereof). I figure, at some point, the mother should have complete control over what happens to her. This is why I believe it should remain legal. Problem is, like you, I want the baby to be safe. And yes, it may just be a blob of cells for now, but in all likelihood the baby will one day become a human being, one that craves love and deserves to have a life, just like anyone else. It's a painful subject, isn't it? Hmm.
I see a lot of legitimacy in the argument that "the baby is within the woman's body with the permission of the woman, and this permission can be revoked at any time". However, I can also see a counter-argument that if somebody's survival were dependent on you and you wilfully abandoned them, you would be charged with wilful neglect or manslaughter. So ... I just feel more of that "I don't know what to think!" sensation.

I think I would define life as starting at sentience. I have no real problem with the morning-after pill. At that point, there is no guarantee that what's there is even going to become a viable life. But yeah ... it's such a hard, difficult subject and a total mess all too often. As I've said, I think the best policy by far is to stop the need for abortions in the first place. If nobody wants an abortion, we don't need to have this debate at all.
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Ian McCulloch the U2 fan:
"Who buys U2 records anyway? It's just music for plumbers and bricklayers. Bono, what a slob. You'd think with all that climbing about he does, he'd look real fit and that. But he's real fat, y'know. Reminds me of a soddin' mountain goat."
"And as for Bono, he needs a colostomy bag for his mouth."

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Old 05-17-2008, 02:39 AM   #416
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Quote:
Originally posted by Screwtape2


They acted as a force of justice.

They were being noble. If you can't respect that then I don't think you understand what being noble is.
They need a coherent plan to achieve their goals. Shouting in the street won't do that. They need to find more productive methods. They may have a good point, but simply having a good point isn't enough.

All I ask are results.

And with that, I shall side with Ian in agreeing this is going nowhere and bow out of the debate. Maybe the thread too, since I probably should be writing an essay ...
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"Mediocrity is never so dangerous as when it is dressed up as sincerity." - Søren Kierkegaard

Ian McCulloch the U2 fan:
"Who buys U2 records anyway? It's just music for plumbers and bricklayers. Bono, what a slob. You'd think with all that climbing about he does, he'd look real fit and that. But he's real fat, y'know. Reminds me of a soddin' mountain goat."
"And as for Bono, he needs a colostomy bag for his mouth."

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Old 05-17-2008, 02:40 AM   #417
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Hey, can one of you premium members please post the top ten poster stats? I'm rather closing in on 48,000 here. I need to slow down on the posting.
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"Mediocrity is never so dangerous as when it is dressed up as sincerity." - Søren Kierkegaard

Ian McCulloch the U2 fan:
"Who buys U2 records anyway? It's just music for plumbers and bricklayers. Bono, what a slob. You'd think with all that climbing about he does, he'd look real fit and that. But he's real fat, y'know. Reminds me of a soddin' mountain goat."
"And as for Bono, he needs a colostomy bag for his mouth."

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Old 05-17-2008, 02:41 AM   #418
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I would suppose i'm more in favour of abortions than not, simply because of the horrific abuse inflicted on children here that have been had by people who are in no way fit to be parents, although that links more towards the point Ax made of removing the need for abortions in the first place. Simply because, to take another perspective, is it better to kill the child (i can't believe i'm writing this) before it has to live through years of abuse before being beaten to death?


But this is opening up quite the can of worms. Stop it before it becomes an issue, simply.
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Old 05-17-2008, 02:43 AM   #419
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Originally posted by Axver
Hey, can one of you premium members please post the top ten poster stats? I'm rather closing in on 48,000 here. I need to slow down on the posting.
What's wrong about being one of the top ten posters?
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Old 05-17-2008, 02:43 AM   #420
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