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Old 05-17-2008, 01:31 AM   #376
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Quote:
Originally posted by Axver
By the way, I love this thread.

What we've got going right now is what FYM should be.
Hahaha definitely.


Problem is, I don't think there's all that much to discuss at this point concerning this issue. We all want what Screwtape wants, but the problem is that it has not yet, nor may it ever, become a reality. People are lazy. Being an activist or, better yet, an extroverted idealist (I'm very proud of the subtle distinction I just made there ) is extremely difficult and not everyone will agree with what you're supporting. Part of me understands and follows suit; the other part is talking from a soapbox right now.
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Old 05-17-2008, 01:31 AM   #377
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Originally posted by Axver


I'd like to think you're right, but three years of studying PolSci has left me so convinced that the system is increasingly fucked and we're increasingly incapable of doing anything about it that I'm ditching PolSci and sticking with History.

We need radical change. We need it yesterday. But the system is so firmly established that it cannot be changed. It gives people what they want in the immediate short term; there will never be revolutionary fervour as long as people have a roof over their heads, food on the table, and some diversionary entertainment to fill their evening.

What I think we need are huge policy shifts. Environmental conservation, sustainable infrastructure, public transport promotion, privileging healthcare and education over big business rather than the other way around. It won't happen. Crucially, the first state to take such steps is inherently vulnerable - I won't go all theoretical here, except to say that it's reminiscient of the security dilemma that underpinned much foreign policy in the Cold War. Nobody wants to fuck themselves over and let somebody else profit at their expense.
Axver, the system will always fall prey to the human condition. People demand a voice all across the world. Never will revolution be dead. People will fight the system in their own way. Some will join together in that fight. Eventually there will be a change. The revolution will be alive as long as there is immortality. When know what we do will go on and on and on. We will never stop dreaming.
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Old 05-17-2008, 01:32 AM   #378
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Quote:
Originally posted by Screwtape2


They made a thing right and a thing wrong. They set up an ethic. They saw the human condition and deemed things wrong or right. That is a tangible difference because it sets up a justice.
Again, sounds nice, but I don't know what you mean.

Reaganomics happened. Rogernomics happened. Thatcherism happened. Neoliberal economics now defines the international system; the International Monetary Fund demands often completely inappropriate politico-economic restructuring in impoverished countries as a condition for loans. Economic neoliberalism is hegemonic. A bunch of students rallying did absolutely squat.

Neoliberalism will only lose its hegemony when it has a crisis of legitimacy. "A-ha!" you say. "Nuh-uh" I reply. What destroyed the Keynesian consensus and gave rise to neoliberalism? It sure as hell wasn't student organisation. It wasn't the Generation of 1968. It took place at the highest levels of the global economy - see the 1973 Oil Shock. Economists and politicians at the system's centre made the calls. Systematic changes will be motivated by economic pressures, not by a bunch of students with fantastic, bright ideas.

(Disclaimer: I am worried how this post will come across with regards to my stance on the issues described. I am, for the record, firmly opposed to economic neoliberalism.)
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Old 05-17-2008, 01:32 AM   #379
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No. Stop talking in vague terms. This is precisely the problem I am getting at. What you just said doesn't mean anything. It's nice-sounding words rather than a plan of action.
And this supports your point perfectly...too many do this, and nothing ever comes of it.
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Old 05-17-2008, 01:37 AM   #380
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Quote:
Originally posted by Axver


No. Stop talking in vague terms. This is precisely the problem I am getting at. What you just said doesn't mean anything. It's nice-sounding words rather than a plan of action.

Tell me what you think should be done and how it will be realised.
The revolution is a dream-given will that is eternal.

A dream will come to someone and they will rise up. They will give this will a voice and a people. That is the revolution. It pushes out as a dream through every atom and mind. It lives forever in the ever expanding universe. All you need is to dream it up.
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Old 05-17-2008, 01:38 AM   #381
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I always seem to walk in on politics
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Old 05-17-2008, 01:39 AM   #382
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Quote:
Originally posted by Screwtape2


The revolution is a dream-given will that is eternal.

A dream will come to someone and they will rise up. They will give this will a voice and a people. That is the revolution. It pushes out as a dream through every atom and mind. It lives forever in the ever expanding universe. All you need is to dream it up.

If nothing else, you'll make a hell of a writer.
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Old 05-17-2008, 01:39 AM   #383
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Originally posted by bono_212
I always seem to walk in on politics
It might be the bat signal for you
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Old 05-17-2008, 01:40 AM   #384
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Quote:
Originally posted by Axver


Again, sounds nice, but I don't know what you mean.

Reaganomics happened. Rogernomics happened. Thatcherism happened. Neoliberal economics now defines the international system; the International Monetary Fund demands often completely inappropriate politico-economic restructuring in impoverished countries as a condition for loans. Economic neoliberalism is hegemonic. A bunch of students rallying did absolutely squat.

Neoliberalism will only lose its hegemony when it has a crisis of legitimacy. "A-ha!" you say. "Nuh-uh" I reply. What destroyed the Keynesian consensus and gave rise to neoliberalism? It sure as hell wasn't student organisation. It wasn't the Generation of 1968. It took place at the highest levels of the global economy - see the 1973 Oil Shock. Economists and politicians at the system's centre made the calls. Systematic changes will be motivated by economic pressures, not by a bunch of students with fantastic, bright ideas.

(Disclaimer: I am worried how this post will come across with regards to my stance on the issues described. I am, for the record, firmly opposed to economic neoliberalism.)
They showed a thing was wrong. They carried out a justice. Squat? They showed the power of will by making sure a wrong did not pass as a right. Can't you see the importance of that?
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Old 05-17-2008, 01:45 AM   #385
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Quote:
Originally posted by coolian2


It might be the bat signal for you
Nananananana batman
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Old 05-17-2008, 01:45 AM   #386
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I hesitate to do this, but ...

Quote:
Originally posted by Screwtape2
The revolution is a dream-given will that is eternal.

A dream will come to someone and they will rise up. They will give this will a voice and a people. That is the revolution. It pushes out as a dream through every atom and mind. It lives forever in the ever expanding universe. All you need is to dream it up.
No. Stop talking in vague terms. This is precisely the problem I am getting at. What you just said doesn't mean anything. It's nice-sounding words rather than a plan of action.

Tell me what you think should be done and how it will be realised.

We don't want dreamers. We want people who get results.
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Ian McCulloch the U2 fan:
"Who buys U2 records anyway? It's just music for plumbers and bricklayers. Bono, what a slob. You'd think with all that climbing about he does, he'd look real fit and that. But he's real fat, y'know. Reminds me of a soddin' mountain goat."
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Old 05-17-2008, 01:48 AM   #387
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Quote:
Originally posted by Screwtape2


They showed a thing was wrong. They carried out a justice. Squat? They showed the power of will by making sure a wrong did not pass as a right. Can't you see the importance of that?
All they did was showed that some people disagreed. Did those in power care? No. Did those in power make any changes? No. Did the protest movements achieve any tangible results? No. They exercised their free speech and that was it. Economic neoliberalism is a defining characteristic of the present day international order. At the end of the day, to the protest movements, all I have to say is "so what?" Sure, I agree that it's wrong. Standing in the street yelling about it isn't going to right the wrong. Go do something productive.
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Ian McCulloch the U2 fan:
"Who buys U2 records anyway? It's just music for plumbers and bricklayers. Bono, what a slob. You'd think with all that climbing about he does, he'd look real fit and that. But he's real fat, y'know. Reminds me of a soddin' mountain goat."
"And as for Bono, he needs a colostomy bag for his mouth."

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Old 05-17-2008, 01:51 AM   #388
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Quote:
Originally posted by coolian2



If nothing else, you'll make a hell of a writer.
Seconded.

I just had this funny thought of Screwtape in one of those 1880s Russian communist or anarchist groups, drafting their manifestos with all kinds of wonderful sounding rhetoric.

Honestly, if I believed a movement had a chance of success, I could see myself in a similar role. Right now, on a lot of issues, I can tell you what should be done and how this should be accomplished. But how to get into a position to execute this plan - I have no fucking clue.
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Ian McCulloch the U2 fan:
"Who buys U2 records anyway? It's just music for plumbers and bricklayers. Bono, what a slob. You'd think with all that climbing about he does, he'd look real fit and that. But he's real fat, y'know. Reminds me of a soddin' mountain goat."
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Old 05-17-2008, 01:51 AM   #389
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Quote:
Originally posted by Axver
I hesitate to do this, but ...



No. Stop talking in vague terms. This is precisely the problem I am getting at. What you just said doesn't mean anything. It's nice-sounding words rather than a plan of action.

Tell me what you think should be done and how it will be realised.

We don't want dreamers. We want people who get results.
These are not vague terms. A revolution is a dream-given will. I can't explain it any better than that. I just told you the plan and how it will be realized. The world is shaped by dreamers. You have to have faith in them.
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Old 05-17-2008, 01:54 AM   #390
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For the record, I agree with Axver on most every issue here, but I'm too preoccupied at the moment to be articulate. Hey, just like everyone else in my generation that I've looked down on tonight.
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