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Old 05-17-2008, 01:06 AM   #361
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It all about responsibility. No one chooses to be a leader of something great than themselves. Like I said it just lands in your lap. Many simply don't take on the responsibility, many don't have their voices heard but they are out there. You have to breath life into the idea of revolution in the minds of young people. The real heroes never wanted to be heroes, they just accepted the responsibility.
To be perfectly honest with you, this just sounds like fluffy idealistic motivational talk to me. I'd say that more to the point, those who stand up and try to make their voice heard are not listened to. People will give intellectual consent to an idea, but are too apathetic and disillusioned to do anything more because they don't see a reward for their commitment, i.e. the realisation, even partial, of their goals.
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Old 05-17-2008, 01:09 AM   #362
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Originally posted by LemonMelon


And now the next question (probably the most saddening of all): what will it take to get these people to just say "fuck it" and take it on regardless of their reservations? Hopefully it's nothing irreparable.
Honestly...they need to know they aren't alone. They need see revolution work again. Simply put, they need another revolution.
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Old 05-17-2008, 01:11 AM   #363
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We don't see nearly anyone active, let alone Greenpeace. But whenever we're looking for an example of a group who seem to run around like a headless chicken, we turn to Greenpeace.

It's like when they tried to stop a coal shipment leaving Lyttleton earlier this year - it came up in one of our classes (PR, as it happens!) and it turned into a "we're sick of their shit" agreement.

Perhaps when you hear the same voice doing the same thing for so long - especially as you grow up and learn the system - you recognise the groups are often full of idiots who have goals but no realistic way to go about them.
Yeah, they go after all the wrong things. I think what people want is a detailed, clear plan of attack that actually has a reasonable chance of success. And within our political system, how do you get success? Either by getting into parliament (ha) or influencing the governing party's policies and policymakers (damn hard). Greenpeace waving placards and tying themselves to ships will do sweet fuck-all.

I don't think people see marching in the streets as having any realistic chance of success. The more the masses pull out of it, the more it gets the perception of being an activity of the loony fringe and the less likely the masses are to even support it, let alone become involved again.
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Ian McCulloch the U2 fan:
"Who buys U2 records anyway? It's just music for plumbers and bricklayers. Bono, what a slob. You'd think with all that climbing about he does, he'd look real fit and that. But he's real fat, y'know. Reminds me of a soddin' mountain goat."
"And as for Bono, he needs a colostomy bag for his mouth."

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Old 05-17-2008, 01:11 AM   #364
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Originally posted by Axver


To be perfectly honest with you, this just sounds like fluffy idealistic motivational talk to me. I'd say that more to the point, those who stand up and try to make their voice heard are not listened to. People will give intellectual consent to an idea, but are too apathetic and disillusioned to do anything more because they don't see a reward for their commitment, i.e. the realisation, even partial, of their goals.
And, also, where do these "heroes" come from anyway? Can anyone honestly expect a jaded politician or statesman to pick up a cause with no strings attached? On the other side, who would bother with some man no one has heard of who simply has an opinion? It's pretty dire when you look at it that way.
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Old 05-17-2008, 01:12 AM   #365
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Honestly...they need to know they aren't alone. They need see revolution work again. Simply put, they need another revolution.
What exactly do you mean by "revolution"?

I should lay my cards on the table here by stating that I think the revolutionary left, as traditionally understood, is an embarrassment to the entire left wing.
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Ian McCulloch the U2 fan:
"Who buys U2 records anyway? It's just music for plumbers and bricklayers. Bono, what a slob. You'd think with all that climbing about he does, he'd look real fit and that. But he's real fat, y'know. Reminds me of a soddin' mountain goat."
"And as for Bono, he needs a colostomy bag for his mouth."

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Old 05-17-2008, 01:13 AM   #366
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Originally posted by Axver


Yeah, they go after all the wrong things. I think what people want is a detailed, clear plan of attack that actually has a reasonable chance of success. And within our political system, how do you get success? Either by getting into parliament (ha) or influencing the governing party's policies and policymakers (damn hard). Greenpeace waving placards and tying themselves to ships will do sweet fuck-all.

I don't think people see marching in the streets as having any realistic chance of success. The more the masses pull out of it, the more it gets the perception of being an activity of the loony fringe and the less likely the masses are to even support it, let alone become involved again.
I was going to say what you said in the first paragraph but i thought someone would pick up on it. Now to be supported by the masses you need to have your shit together. So together you may as well just get it done by a political party or get into parliament (ha).
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Old 05-17-2008, 01:15 AM   #367
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Quote:
Originally posted by Axver


To be perfectly honest with you, this just sounds like fluffy idealistic motivational talk to me. I'd say that more to the point, those who stand up and try to make their voice heard are not listened to. People will give intellectual consent to an idea, but are too apathetic and disillusioned to do anything more because they don't see a reward for their commitment, i.e. the realisation, even partial, of their goals.
You're wrong Axver. I see the good in people. People in America are willing to listen. A revolution is coming. Maybe not now but in a few years, a few decades. This generation sees and asks "this is what you've left us?" They are starting to work for their children and their children. I see the good in people. The future is now. A great dream is starting to be born.
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Old 05-17-2008, 01:18 AM   #368
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Originally posted by coolian2


I was going to say what you said in the first paragraph but i thought someone would pick up on it. Now to be supported by the masses you need to have your shit together. So together you may as well just get it done by a political party or get into parliament (ha).
I'm having a damn hard time right now trying to think of any change "from below" (i.e. from the extra-institutional masses) that has succeeded in a Western liberal democracy in the last few decades. The most notable changes I can think of have all been initiated by political elites and their intellectual advisors. Look at the rise of neoliberal economics in the 1970s and Reaganomics/Rogernomics/Thatcherism in the 1980s; does anybody seriously think the man in the street thought up that huge political shift? Hell no, that was politicians and policymakers at the core of the system making changes. A bunch of students rallying made no tangible difference.
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Ian McCulloch the U2 fan:
"Who buys U2 records anyway? It's just music for plumbers and bricklayers. Bono, what a slob. You'd think with all that climbing about he does, he'd look real fit and that. But he's real fat, y'know. Reminds me of a soddin' mountain goat."
"And as for Bono, he needs a colostomy bag for his mouth."

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Old 05-17-2008, 01:18 AM   #369
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Quote:
Originally posted by Axver


What exactly do you mean by "revolution"?

I should lay my cards on the table here by stating that I think the revolutionary left, as traditionally understood, is an embarrassment to the entire left wing.
A new involvement, a new energy, a new dream and the beginning of a new change to the system, to the society.
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Old 05-17-2008, 01:23 AM   #370
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You're wrong Axver. I see the good in people. People in America are willing to listen. A revolution is coming. Maybe not now but in a few years, a few decades. This generation sees and asks "this is what you've left us?" They are starting to work for their children and their children. I see the good in people. The future is now. A great dream is starting to be born.
I'd like to think you're right, but three years of studying PolSci has left me so convinced that the system is increasingly fucked and we're increasingly incapable of doing anything about it that I'm ditching PolSci and sticking with History.

We need radical change. We need it yesterday. But the system is so firmly established that it cannot be changed. It gives people what they want in the immediate short term; there will never be revolutionary fervour as long as people have a roof over their heads, food on the table, and some diversionary entertainment to fill their evening.

What I think we need are huge policy shifts. Environmental conservation, sustainable infrastructure, public transport promotion, privileging healthcare and education over big business rather than the other way around. It won't happen. Crucially, the first state to take such steps is inherently vulnerable - I won't go all theoretical here, except to say that it's reminiscient of the security dilemma that underpinned much foreign policy in the Cold War. Nobody wants to fuck themselves over and let somebody else profit at their expense.
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Ian McCulloch the U2 fan:
"Who buys U2 records anyway? It's just music for plumbers and bricklayers. Bono, what a slob. You'd think with all that climbing about he does, he'd look real fit and that. But he's real fat, y'know. Reminds me of a soddin' mountain goat."
"And as for Bono, he needs a colostomy bag for his mouth."

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Old 05-17-2008, 01:25 AM   #371
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Originally posted by Axver

A bunch of students rallying made no tangible difference.
They made a thing right and a thing wrong. They set up an ethic. They saw the human condition and deemed things wrong or right. That is a tangible difference because it sets up a justice.
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Old 05-17-2008, 01:25 AM   #372
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A new involvement, a new energy, a new dream and the beginning of a new change to the system, to the society.
No. Stop talking in vague terms. This is precisely the problem I am getting at. What you just said doesn't mean anything. It's nice-sounding words rather than a plan of action.

Tell me what you think should be done and how it will be realised.
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Ian McCulloch the U2 fan:
"Who buys U2 records anyway? It's just music for plumbers and bricklayers. Bono, what a slob. You'd think with all that climbing about he does, he'd look real fit and that. But he's real fat, y'know. Reminds me of a soddin' mountain goat."
"And as for Bono, he needs a colostomy bag for his mouth."

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Old 05-17-2008, 01:26 AM   #373
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By the way, I love this thread.

What we've got going right now is what FYM should be.
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Ian McCulloch the U2 fan:
"Who buys U2 records anyway? It's just music for plumbers and bricklayers. Bono, what a slob. You'd think with all that climbing about he does, he'd look real fit and that. But he's real fat, y'know. Reminds me of a soddin' mountain goat."
"And as for Bono, he needs a colostomy bag for his mouth."

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Old 05-17-2008, 01:28 AM   #374
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By the way, I love this thread.

What we've got going right now is what FYM should be.
Can't argue. It helps we have a few jaded FYM members around. Although oddly enough, i'm not one of them.
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Old 05-17-2008, 01:29 AM   #375
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No. Stop talking in vague terms. This is precisely the problem I am getting at. What you just said doesn't mean anything. It's nice-sounding words rather than a plan of action.
I want to agree with this without simply quoting and saying i agree. But efforts to do otherwise would be redundant. So i agree.
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