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Old 05-23-2008, 10:23 PM   #91
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No, creation is taking something that does not exist and bringing it into life. The characters existed for the actors. The music existed for the musician. The painter is creating something new.
The character existed on paper. The actual character, including the way he would walk, his vocal cadence, was not there, and is something the actor needs to find. If it really was just basically copying something that existed, then you would expect that anybody could walk onto a film set and take over for an actor and do an equally fine job. Same with music. It takes artistic talent to be able to inhabit a role or interpret a piece of music successfully.

As for a painter, what if he is painting a scene that exists before him? Couldn't it be argued that he isn't creating something since he's just copying it down with paint? Ooh! And wouldn't he also have to - gasp! - interpret the scene to determine how best to paint it? How literal to translate the scene, which color palette to use, what kind of style, etc?

Give it up, screwtape.
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Old 05-23-2008, 10:28 PM   #92
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If acting isn't creating, then tell me you'd watch someone like Matthew Lillard do a dramatic monologue over Daniel Day-Lewis.

Don't tell me what "Art" is. For all we know, it's just short for Arthur.
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Old 05-23-2008, 10:30 PM   #93
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The character existed on paper. The actual character, including the way he would walk, his vocal cadence, was not there, and is something the actor needs to find. If it really was just basically copying something that existed, then you would expect that anybody could walk onto a film set and take over for an actor and do an equally fine job. Same with music. It takes artistic talent to be able to inhabit a role or interpret a piece of music successfully.

As for a painter, what if he is painting a scene that exists before him. Wouldn't he have to - gasp! - interpret the scene to determine how best to paint it? How literal to translate the scene, which color palette to use, what kind of style, etc?

Give it up, screwtape.
The words were there and the words are what are important. Human communication is based on what is sad not how it is said. For example, saying 'I love you' in a whisper is no less powerful than in a scream.

The painter is expressing the scene through their own emotions. It is creation because they have put something new from nothingness onto paper.
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Old 05-23-2008, 10:36 PM   #94
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The words were there and the words are what are important. Human communication is based on what is sad not how it is said. For example, saying 'I love you' in a whisper is no less powerful than in a scream.

The painter is expressing the scene through their own emotions. It is creation because they have put something new from nothingness onto paper.
Good Lord you're stubborn. If it's just words, then couldn't you argue that ANYONE would be a good actor because you're just reading words? I mean, if they're just words, then Pauly Shore could stand in for Ian McKellan and it'd be just as good, because after all, actors don't create anything.

You're also wrong about what and not how. If you say I love you gently into someone's ear, and then scream it with a sneer on your face, don't you think that changes the intent just a bit? Or are you honestly trying to say that actors could scream all the lines and it wouldn't make a difference? If so, then you're more out of touch than I thought.

Do you understand, at all, the point I'm trying to make, and the points you continue to miss?
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Old 05-23-2008, 10:40 PM   #95
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Good Lord you're stubborn. If it's just words, then couldn't you argue that ANYONE would be a good actor because you're just reading words? I mean, if they're just words, then Pauly Shore could stand in for Ian McKellan and it'd be just as good, because after all, actors don't create anything.

Do you understand the point I'm trying to make, and the points you continue to miss?
Quality of art is not relevance to whether it is art. Art is subjective but what is art is not. I'm not saying anyone can be an actor. I'm just saying that acting isn't creation.
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Old 05-23-2008, 10:45 PM   #96
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Quality of art is not relevance to whether it is art. Art is subjective but what is art is not. I'm not saying anyone can be an actor. I'm just saying that acting isn't creation.
Complete bullshit. Give 10 people the same monologue and they'll read it 10 different ways. It's about synergy. You can't have a character without the words of the writer or the performance of the actor.

Like it's been said before, you can have your personal definitions of what YOU believe "art" truly is, but let everyone else have their own views of it. The only reason anyone's getting apprehensive is because you're vehemently denying any alternative view on the matter. It suppresses any type of real discussion.
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Old 05-23-2008, 10:45 PM   #97
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How is acting not creation in some way? Explain to me beyond "because the words were there already" - if you can.
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Old 05-23-2008, 10:47 PM   #98
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Disagree completely. While I am not a humongous fan of tribute bands, I have seen some and I do enjoy them for the entertainment factor. I believe they just do it to have fun and I don't see anything wrong with that at all. Personally I think this thread is very insulting towards tribute bands and my first instinct was to close the thread. If it keeps going on beating dead horses I wont see a reason for it to continue.
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Old 05-23-2008, 10:48 PM   #99
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How is acting not creation in some way? Explain to me beyond "because the words were there already" - if you can.
It is totally interpretation because they aren't taking something out of nothingness and giving it life. That is creation. They aren't doing that.
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Old 05-23-2008, 10:50 PM   #100
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Disagree completely. While I am not a humongous fan of tribute bands, I have seen some and I do enjoy them for the entertainment factor. I believe they just do it to have fun and I don't see anything wrong with that at all. Personally I think this thread is very insulting towards tribute bands and my first instinct was to close the thread. If it keeps going on beating dead horses I wont see a reason for it to continue.
Why is it insulting? It is just a discussion were having. Why are they above discussion and criticism?
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Old 05-23-2008, 10:53 PM   #101
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What's the point of "creation" if it cannot be shared with anyone else?

It's a very selfish view of looking at things and would expect better from a fellow writer. Thinking you have some power of everyone because you're the "creator" is absolute bullshit. It takes work from everyone else involved to make a raw idea become a fully realized vision. I hope someday you understand that.
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Old 05-23-2008, 10:57 PM   #102
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It is totally interpretation because they aren't taking something out of nothingness and giving it life. That is creation. They aren't doing that.
They most certainly are. That character has never walked around in the flesh. It's never breathed. It's never interacted with other people in the flesh. They created the physical manifestation of the character and I don't really see how anyone could soundly argue otherwise.

And again, interpretation is a vital part of creating art. As with the painter who interprets the scene before him, or the songwriter who interprets the situations around him and writes lyrics that suit it, etc. Interpretation is vital. Whether you like it or not.

You really need to realize that your opinion is not fact. You also need to realize that there are many people far more knowledgeable and versed in art in its many forms than you, and it might be a good idea to actually listen to what people have to say and acknowledge the fact that you may be wrong. The only thing I have seen you say is "but it's not creation" despite the numerous ways in which others have shown you that it actually is.
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Old 05-23-2008, 11:02 PM   #103
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Why is it insulting?
"Look man, I don't mean to insult you, but you're the enemy of art."

You wouldn't find that insulting?
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Old 05-23-2008, 11:04 PM   #104
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Screwtape, you have an exceptionally narrow and rigid idea of what constitutes art -- more rigid than anyone I have ever known. I'm an artist (even by your narrow interpretation ), I work with other artists, and I grew up with and around artists, and not a single one would agree with your definition of art. Many of us make our living from our art and have done so for decades, and not one of us would agree with the limits you put on the definition of art. Performance is creation. That you cannot see that doesn't make it untrue. (how's that for a funky sentence? ) I will grant you that not all art -- performance art included -- is good art, but that's true of everything.

I actually find it hilarious that you think tribute bands are the enemy of art, because I feel the view you hold as to what constitutes art is a much bigger threat to actual art than millions of tribute bands could ever be. You want art to fit in some nice neat box and it just doesn't.
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Old 05-23-2008, 11:10 PM   #105
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Did I walk into FYM?

Diemen, LMP, cori... I applaud you. I don't know how you do it.


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