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Old 09-16-2003, 12:10 AM   #31
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sorry for not being born in canada, "tommy", because it obviously means that i can never grasp the intricacies of the game. however, your argument seems to have a few points that are arguable, even if it is my my feeble american mind. first of all, "pre-Bourque form"? how did you mean this to be taken? in the pre-Borque years the avs won the stanley cup in '96 and then proceeded to make it to the western finals every year (except for a fluke series with edmonton in which they were up 3-1).

you also say that the team will be dismantled by trades. well as we have seen in the last 8 seasons, pierre lacroix has not been known to make team dismantling trades. in fact, he does quite the opposite. he makes decisions that better the team such as getting fleury (i know, i know, but there was a time when he had his sanity), bouque, blake, and reinprecht. my only reason to think that the acquisition of kariya and selanne will not work out to its ultimate potential, is the current talk of splitting them up. and hopefully the coaches will pull their heads out before the season starts.

the team is full of potential, look at these hypothetical lines, and then tell me a team that has the firepower, or defense to stand against them.
First Line:Kariya, Sakic, Selanne
Second:Hejduk, Forsberg, Tanquay
Third: Battaglia (forgot we had him, EH!), Nikolishin, Hinote
Fourth:Worrel (there's the tough guy avsgirl!), Hahl, Willsie

Then throw in the fact that we have arguably two of the best defensemen in the game in foote and blake, not to mention martin skoula, and the up and coming talent of d.j. smith, and i would think that one would be hard pressed to say any team can rival the avs.
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Old 09-16-2003, 02:25 AM   #32
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Originally posted by shrmn8rpoptart
sorry for not being born in canada, "tommy", because it obviously means that i can never grasp the intricacies of the game. however, your argument seems to have a few points that are arguable, even if it is my my feeble american mind. first of all, "pre-Bourque form"? how did you mean this to be taken? in the pre-Borque years the avs won the stanley cup in '96 and then proceeded to make it to the western finals every year (except for a fluke series with edmonton in which they were up 3-1).
Your objectivity knows no bounds.

Nationality is arbitrary in a discussion like this; quite a tactless comment in fact. In the years following their cup in '96 the Avs floundered... you may remember they were strattling the playoff bubble before the Bourque trade.

As far as the Edmonton series being a fluke... well, whatever you have to tell yourself...

Quote:
you also say that the team will be dismantled by trades. well as we have seen in the last 8 seasons, pierre lacroix has not been known to make team dismantling trades. in fact, he does quite the opposite. he makes decisions that better the team such as getting fleury (i know, i know, but there was a time when he had his sanity)...
Score one for me.

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bouque, blake, and reinprecht. my only reason to think that the acquisition of kariya and selanne will not work out to its ultimate potential, is the current talk of splitting them up. and hopefully the coaches will pull their heads out before the season starts.
Certain necessities will force the team to make a trade. Small contracts put management in a position of power when it comes to executing trades. The cheaper the player, the more expendable... so Kariya's mini-deal is easily transferred to other parties. Selanne will most likely stay.

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the team is full of potential, look at these hypothetical lines, and then tell me a team that has the firepower, or defense to stand against them.
First Line:Kariya, Sakic, Selanne
Second:Hejduk, Forsberg, Tanquay
Third: Battaglia (forgot we had him, EH!), Nikolishin, Hinote
Fourth:Worrel (there's the tough guy avsgirl!), Hahl, Willsie

Then throw in the fact that we have arguably two of the best defensemen in the game in foote and blake, not to mention martin skoula, and the up and coming talent of d.j. smith, and i would think that one would be hard pressed to say any team can rival the avs.
Haha. I don't know why I bothered to reply to this, as you obviously didn't read anything I said... or maybe you just created a new context for it.

The Avs front lines are formidable... I don't contest that. The scale is tipped exposing a weak back end. Blake has been inconsistent and less effective in jumping into the rush. Foote is reliable, but the mileage is stacking up on him.

DJ Smith? Not even the Leafs defense had a spot reserved for him on the roster. Touted prospect indeed.



I have found more often than not that when fans protest criticism so harshly they have their own reservations about the team/player. Insecurities that need to be addressed... possibly through civil discussion?

Just a thought.
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Old 09-16-2003, 02:48 AM   #33
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...but it added an interesting kink.
Kinky, indeed.

You know, I could seriously see the Avs splitting up the lines and spreading the wealth. If they kept only Karyia and Salanne together on one line, kept only Forsberg and Hejduk together on another, they could create a third line consisting of Sakic and Tanguay. That might be the way to go...would address the back end problem, wouldn't you say?

Oh, Pinball Wizard: Tell me what you make of Vancouver's team this year, with the addition of Arvedson, Slegr, Hedberg, and possibly Mike Keane (if he gets past camp). Please answer as objectively as possible. Do you think they're better than last year's team? I think they are.
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Old 09-16-2003, 03:10 AM   #34
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Oh, Pinball Wizard: Tell me what you make of Vancouver's team this year, with the addition of Arvedson, Slegr, Hedberg, and possibly Mike Keane (if he gets past camp). Please answer as objectively as possible. Do you think they're better than last year's team? I think they are.
You don't have to call me that eh griffey...

Vancouver. Slightly better than last year. I was a big fan of Hedberg; he was mistreated and devalued in the Burgh. Jiri Slegr is a great acquisition as well.

Arvedson... pointless. His offensive upside is respectable, but his penchant for injury and hesitancy towards a checking role makes him less than a good fit for the Canucks. Unless he's paired with a productive "power forward" (I bet you love that phrase Mikey), his chance for success is limited.

Overall I don't see anything hindering the Canucks, other than a possible goaltending duel (dressing room chemistry)... which is ultimately beneficial to both Cloutier's and Hedberg's development.

Prediction: Surprisingly, 3rd in the West. Colorado's streak of division championships will end... indefinitely.
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Old 09-16-2003, 04:07 AM   #35
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Cuj, I agree with much of what you say, except I must point out it is a bit of a myth that Arvedson is injury prone. In fact, both times he was injured, causing him to miss large chunks of the season last year and the year before, were results of a broken ankle and an injured spleen because someone checked him into the players gate. Those aren't typical injuries, and since he has no other typical injuries to speak of, I don't think he's injury prone. As far as his defensive leaning, don't you think the Canucks need some of that? I mean, maybe he would have helped prevent that defensive meltdown against Minny!

I also predict 3rd in the West, but I'm not so sure they'll beat Colorado. I think Colorado and Detroit will finish 1 and 2...though I wouldn't be shocked if Vancouver finished ahead of Detroit, even as high as 2nd.
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Old 09-16-2003, 10:43 AM   #36
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ah, cuj, you may have struck a nerve with that "underlying problem" jibber jabber. maybe i am still reeling from a summer full of watching the god-awful rockies instead of watching the avs make a run at the cup. instead of addressing this issue i have been known to lash out irrationaly, often with nationality as the focus (lucky you weren't russian or there would've have been some slow witted communist jokes made). for this i am sorry.

however, come on man, at least let me have some hope that there will be some joy in my life between slane ond dvd and the new album, and maybe even before the new tour starts. i would like to have faith in the avs, they've never done anything to make me doubt, in fact i'm quite pumped about the upcoming season, even though skoula sucks (he was responsible for the big goals by the wild) and who knows whether or not they can afford to sign tanguay now.

i do think that colorado will win the northwest, yes the canucks will challenge, but when it comes to the stretch run (just like last year) the avs always seem to be able to make that final push. where they will go in the playoffs is anyone's guess, so i just hope that if they don't go deep, no rockies games will be televised.
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Old 09-16-2003, 12:11 PM   #37
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Originally posted by shrmn8rpoptart

i would like to have faith in the avs, they've never done anything to make me doubt, in fact i'm quite pumped about the upcoming season, even though skoula sucks (he was responsible for the big goals by the wild) and who knows whether or not they can afford to sign tanguay now.
I knew this was coming.

Yet another Colorado fan who thinks bashing Skoula=deep hockey knowledge.

There were many reasons why the Avs lost to the Wild and they do not begin with S and end with A.

As I recall, it was deVries and Morris who really dropped the defensive ball--not to mention poor goaltending from Roy--but I pretty much blocked that whole playoffs from my mind.

And Tanguay was re-signed last week. He caved to a one-year deal, when Lacroix promised him a multi-year last season. He should have taken that sneak to arbitration.
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Old 09-16-2003, 12:28 PM   #38
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come now avsgirl, i'm trying to apologize and you start ripping me all over again. listen, skoula was not just the weak spot during that series, but has been for the last couple of seasons. he spends too much time trying to stick-handle out of the zone, or makes bad passes through center. i know that when your d consitis of blake foote devries and morris, it is easy to single out a guy like skoula. however, just because it is an easy answer, i don't think its the wrong answer.

i am glad to hear that we resigned tanguay, that news doesn't get to greeley very quick, as you probably know living in denver and all.

i guess i'm still confused however, as to why everyone is on the avs bashing bandwagon, when over the last 9 years they've been one of the top six teams in the league every year. we have strong d, good offense, (i believe, you may not) solid back lines, and goaltending that will prove to be solid. aebischer is the best swiss player in the league after all. all these things point to another division title to keep that record string alive, and will put them in contention for the cup.
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Old 09-16-2003, 12:29 PM   #39
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Originally posted by shrmn8rpoptart
you also say that the team will be dismantled by trades. well as we have seen in the last 8 seasons, pierre lacroix has not been known to make team dismantling trades. in fact, he does quite the opposite. he makes decisions that better the team such as getting fleury (i know, i know, but there was a time when he had his sanity), bouque, blake, and reinprecht. my only reason to think that the acquisition of kariya and selanne will not work out to its ultimate potential, is the current talk of splitting them up. and hopefully the coaches will pull their heads out before the season starts.

the team is full of potential, look at these hypothetical lines, and then tell me a team that has the firepower, or defense to stand against them.
First Line:Kariya, Sakic, Selanne
Second:Hejduk, Forsberg, Tanquay
Third: Battaglia (forgot we had him, EH!), Nikolishin, Hinote
Fourth:Worrel (there's the tough guy avsgirl!), Hahl, Willsie

Then throw in the fact that we have arguably two of the best defensemen in the game in foote and blake, not to mention martin skoula, and the up and coming talent of d.j. smith, and i would think that one would be hard pressed to say any team can rival the avs.
See, the Avs fans fanatical devotion to Lacroix is exactly where this team will fall apart.

Lacroix has made some terrible trades in the past few seasons.
Podein, Yelle, Drury, Niminen, Vrbata all spring to mind. Bye-bye grit and penalty kill. Bye bye future prospects. And the amazingly talented, never visible Reinprecht "the clincher of the Blake deal" has now been shipped out.

And as for Worrell, he will likely go the way of Marchment and Kasparitis. The Avs constantly go after "dirty" players, but it never has worked out. (My sister reported she was impressed with him at camp, so I may change my mind.)

Even so, one tough guy does not solve the problems of the third and fourth line. Willsie is a joke and always has been. I like Hinote, but he's never been the Deadmarsh replacement they sell him as. And he's too small to really be much of a physical presence anyway. Riku Hahl is too inexperienced, although I think he has potential.

And is this the same Martin Skoula you blamed for losing the first round?

Don't get me wrong, I love the Avs, but this team has bartered away alot of future prospects in an effort to deliver an instant Stanley Cup every year. I mean, the flawless Lacroix tried hard to trade Tanguay to Boston last season. Now he's the vital center of a line...funny how he's such a mastermind though.
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Old 09-16-2003, 12:38 PM   #40
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ok, all geniuses make mistakes, and losing drury and niminen really upset me, and i believe if lacroix were to make a truly great move it would be to get drury back. the player that i miss the most however is rick berry. talk about back line grit, that guy layed some of the hardest hits in the league, and when he was shipped to the penguins i nearly cried.

however, we do have one of the best farm clubs in the league that seems to have a never ending supply of talent when the stars go down in dec. and jan. i want to believe that the people in charge know what they're doing, otherwise what's to keep them from going the way of the nuggets (who in the early '90's were one of the better teams in the west) and the rockies. i have to argue with you, because if things turn out like you say, then what am i left with, the mammoth?
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Old 09-16-2003, 12:39 PM   #41
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Originally posted by shrmn8rpoptart
come now avsgirl, i'm trying to apologize and you start ripping me all over again. listen, skoula was not just the weak spot during that series, but has been for the last couple of seasons. he spends too much time trying to stick-handle out of the zone, or makes bad passes through center. i know that when your d consitis of blake foote devries and morris, it is easy to single out a guy like skoula. however, just because it is an easy answer, i don't think its the wrong answer.

i am glad to hear that we resigned tanguay, that news doesn't get to greeley very quick, as you probably know living in denver and all.

i guess i'm still confused however, as to why everyone is on the avs bashing bandwagon, when over the last 9 years they've been one of the top six teams in the league every year. we have strong d, good offense, (i believe, you may not) solid back lines, and goaltending that will prove to be solid. aebischer is the best swiss player in the league after all. all these things point to another division title to keep that record string alive, and will put them in contention for the cup.
Skoula is my favorite player...i have a weak spot for an underdog. I get really sick of the endless bashing he takes. His mistakes come from a lack of confidence--which is directly related to the "Skoula sucks!" he hears coming from the stands. (And Bob Hartley, but that's a long tale.)

He's fast and has an incredible shot. It's his confidence that causes him to make mistakes, he turns indecisive. And no matter what he does, it's the wrong thing--last season, he played more physical and then got knocked for taking too many penalties.

deVries turned the puck over way more than Skoula, but no one ever noticed because Roy usually saved his ass. (I guess he thinks he's a big name now, "deserving" of the Rangers. Third or fourth line at best, Greg.)

Defense is a really tough position to play...I think if Avs fans would back off, Skoula would surprise them.

And I'm not bashing the Avs. I'm just trying not to get caught up in the "Kariya and Selanne will get us the Cup!" hype. We have alot of big names and firepower, but the Avs are avoiding the problems of the last 2 seasons. And I'm really worried as to when those are going to catch up to us.
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Old 09-16-2003, 12:45 PM   #42
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Originally posted by shrmn8rpoptart
ok, all geniuses make mistakes, and losing drury and niminen really upset me, and i believe if lacroix were to make a truly great move it would be to get drury back. the player that i miss the most however is rick berry. talk about back line grit, that guy layed some of the hardest hits in the league, and when he was shipped to the penguins i nearly cried.
With Berry, it was an attitude problem. He was not the nicest guy--and I think it's evident from the way he's been shipped around the league. His talent just doesn't match up to his ego.

I nearly cried when Nimo went, he was a great guy and a gritty player. He was awesome paired with Hinote. That was Hartley's doing, but Lacroix went along with it. (That's one thing he did right--fire Hartley!!)

Losing Drury lost us the playoffs. We needed the clutch guy.
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Old 09-16-2003, 01:04 PM   #43
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true, but do you think hiring granato was the answer? and even with all my talk about loving the big-namers i wish we still had ozolinsh, lemiux, yelle, and uwe krupp. and you're right when you talk about tough guys, marchment and kasper were jokes, i wish we had parker and simon.
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Old 09-16-2003, 01:23 PM   #44
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I like what I have seen of Granato. The players responded well to him--the fact that he has played makes him more understanding and knowledgeable about where and how to make improvements. Look at how he managed Tanguay. Hartley just yelled at him and benched him.

Granato is also more laid back. Hartley was prone to visible panic, which Scotty Bowman capitalized well on.
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Old 09-17-2003, 02:05 AM   #45
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Originally posted by shrmn8rpoptart
i guess i'm still confused however, as to why everyone is on the avs bashing bandwagon, when over the last 9 years they've been one of the top six teams in the league every year. we have strong d, good offense, (i believe, you may not) solid back lines, and goaltending that will prove to be solid. aebischer is the best swiss player in the league after all. all these things point to another division title to keep that record string alive, and will put them in contention for the cup.
It's almost the shallow optimism that a Yankee fan has... on paper the team is ridiculously good, but will that translate into a championship? More often than not. So because of this, coupled with other factors, some loathe the Avs.

There's always a stigma against expansion franchises that are privileged enough to have rapid success (I would group the Avs into that, as the organization experienced more than just a municipal transition). You often have to question the credibility of the fanship when all they've seen is the upside of the curve, with relatively few setbacks. I think Colorado as a team and hockey city will garner more respect when the organization hits a lull... and there's fans to support a reformation to winning.

Plus, there used to be a lot of jackasses on that team. Most of whom have moved on... or retired.



That's as eloquent as I'll get before sleeping.
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