The official 2005 World Series thread

[phanan]

i think we can all agree, by the closeness of the vote, that Ortiz being a DH probably cost him the MVP.

Not a surprise, but it still blows.

 

[speedracer]

i think we can all agree, by the closeness of the vote, that Ortiz being a DH probably cost him the MVP.

That, plus A-Rod's slightly sub-average defense and clutch hitting when up by 6 runs.

 

[Imarocker]

Yanks' Rodriguez wins AL MVP over Red Sox's Ortiz

Tell fatboy to play the field, let's see his stats when Manny "the butcher" leaves...

 

[speedracer]

Yanks' Rodriguez wins AL MVP over Red Sox's Ortiz

Tell fatboy to play the field, let's see his stats when Manny "the butcher" leaves...

Who was that noodle-armed schlub hitting behind A-Rod again?

This board isn't exactly SoSH, but come on, I can't believe you posted something that had such an easy rebuttal.

Ortiz's stats this year are actually pretty comparable to his stats last year, when he was hitting behind Manny Ramirez and in front of Trot Nixon/Jason Varitek/Kevin Millar for half the season. The only differences are a few more HRs, a few less SOs and more BBs.

Meanwhile, A-Rod's stats got a huge boost compared to last year, when he was hitting in front of Jorge Posada for half the season, iirc.

 

[Headache in a Suitcase]

Yanks' Rodriguez wins AL MVP over Red Sox's Ortiz

Tell fatboy to play the field, let's see his stats when Manny "the butcher" leaves...

the butcher? does manny enjoy meat? or did i miss something?

next time let's try using some logic in an argument that actually has some value... what will ortiz do without manny in the lineup... when absolutely no right handed pitcher will ever throw him a strike ever again? will he be able to adapt and adjust? or will his stats suffer a fall off? also, how will the likelyhood of johnny damon leaving effect his massive RBI stats?

while one can say the same about a-rod, he has played for some pretty bad teams in the past, without the protection that he has in the yankees lineup, and done quite well... all be it once again in a situation where he has absolutely no pressure on him whatsoever.

 

[phanan]

Look, it's as easy as this:

Without Ortiz, how much worse are the Red Sox this past year? Probably at least 10 games and out of the playoffs.

Without A-Rod, how much worse are the Yankees this past year? Probably no difference at all with the lineup they have.

To me, that's what an MVP is all about. Whether he played the field or not is irrelevant. Roger Clemens and Dennis Eckersley both won the MVP, but don't tell me their stellar defensive play every fifth game was a major factor.

 

[speedracer]

while one can say the same about a-rod, he has played for some pretty bad teams in the past, without the protection that he has in the yankees lineup, and done quite well... all be it once again in a situation where he has absolutely no pressure on him whatsoever.

When he was the Rangers, A-Rod had teammates like Pudge, Raffy Palmeiro, and Hank Blalock. I think he had Teixeira and Michael Young as well -- not as good then as they were now, but they're now the nucleus of the team that led the AL in home runs. So he had some pretty solid protection in the lineup while in Texas.

No doubt Ortiz benefits a lot from playing with Manny and the Red Sox, just as A-Rod benefits a lot from playing with Gary Sheffield and the Yankees. But to acknowledge one and the other is folly.

Also, congratulations to Jeter for winning another Gold Glove -- that way the Yankees will continue to field a suboptimal defensive lineup, instead of putting A-Rod at SS and Jeter at 3B where they belong.

 

[Headache in a Suitcase]

a look at the stats...

a-rod played in more games, had more runs scored, had more hits, more homeruns, more steals, a higher batting average, on base percentage, slugging percentage, more total bases, won a gold glove, and his team won the division over ortiz's team.

ortiz had more RBIs and walks... although a-rod's numbers in each of these categories were comparable... and was a DH who never played the field.


the fact that this vote was as close as it was is only a testement to how clutch ortiz was this season. normaly there's an argument between two candidates, and one of those candidates leads the other in almost every statistical category, there isn't any argument.

this vote being close gives props to ortiz's clutchness and gives comedic negatives to a-rod's ability to come through when up by 10 runs.

 

[Headache in a Suitcase]

WASHINGTON - Major League Baseball players and owners agreed to toughen penalties for steroid use to a 50-game suspension for a first failed test and a lifetime ban for a third, The Associated Press learned.

The deal, which also adds testing for amphetamines, was described to the AP by two congressional aides on condition of anonymity because it had not been officially announced.

A formal announcement was planned for later Tuesday, a baseball official told the AP.

Baseball's current steroid penalties are a 10-day suspension for a first offense, 30 days for a second offense, and 60 days for a third. The earliest a player could be banned for life is a fifth offense.

The sport's second new steroids agreement in 10 months came after lengthy negotiations prompted by urging from Congress — including the threat of legislation that would require higher penalties and stricter testing standards.

 

[Chizip]

thank god the baseball writers are able to use their brains a bit. congrats albert.

 

[Headache in a Suitcase]

ST. LOUIS -- Choose your definition of valuable, and Albert Pujols lived up to it in 2005.
Pujols, 25, was a dominant offensive force, ranking among the National League leaders in virtually every hitting category. He complemented his bat with solid and improving defense and success on the basepaths. He came up with big hits at big times. He was the one constant threat in a Cardinals lineup ravaged by injuries. He was the best player on the best team in the league.

And so Pujols now has the one individual award that eluded him for his first four big league seasons. He was named the NL's Most Valuable Player on Tuesday by the Baseball Writers Association of America. Pujols had finished fourth or better in the balloting in each of his first four seasons, placing second twice. Barry Bonds won each of the previous four MVPs in the NL.

Pujols edged out two other strong candidates, Atlanta's Andruw Jones and the Cubs' Derrek Lee. Jones led the Majors with 51 home runs while playing for an Atlanta team that, like the Cardinals, was hit hard by injuries. Lee won the batting title and finished ahead of Pujols in batting average, slugging percentage, home runs and doubles, but toiled for a losing club.

The most complete package in voters' eyes, then, was Pujols. He led the league in runs scored with 129, finished second in batting average (.330), RBIs (117), slugging (.609), on-base percentage (.430) and total bases (360). Pujols also ranked among the leaders in hits (195, fourth), home runs (41, third), walks (sixth) and extra-base hits (third).

Despite dealing with the lingering effects of plantar fasciitis, Pujols played 161 games for a team that badly needed his bat in the lineup. For a significant portion of the second half, St. Louis had to make do without four of its eight Opening Day starters. Yet Pujols churned on, putting up just the kind of numbers that have come to be expected from him.

Pujols is the second Cardinal to win a BBWAA award this fall, joining NL Cy Young winner Chris Carpenter. The Cardinals are the first National League team since the 1991 Braves to have both the NL MVP and Cy Young winners. The last Cardinal to garner the MVP was Willie McGee in 1985.

At 25 years and just under 10 months, Pujols is the youngest NL MVP since Ryne Sandberg in 1984. He is the 12th Cardinal to be named MVP since the BBWAA began handing out the award in 1931, joining a list that includes Hall of Famers Bob Gibson, Orlando Cepeda and Stan Musial, among others.

 

[phanan]

Well, at least they got the NL right.

 

[Headache in a Suitcase]

giving it to a-rod, who's stats were better than ortiz's in almost every single category, is getting it wrong... because one could argue that david ortiz was more important to the red sox, completely ignoring those who would argue that manny ramirez is even more important to the red sox than ortiz...

but albert pujols is dead on.

i see.

i for one think they got it right in both leagues

 

[Hewson]

a look at the stats...

a-rod won a gold glove,

2 words for ya: Eric Chavez

Arod did not win a gold glove.

 

[Hewson]

Congrats to Pujols.

 

[phanan]

giving it to a-rod, who's stats were better than ortiz's in almost every single category, is getting it wrong... because one could argue that david ortiz was more important to the red sox, completely ignoring those who would argue that manny ramirez is even more important to the red sox than ortiz...

It's not always about stats. Ortiz was certainly more valuable to the Red Sox than A-Rod was to the Yankees. Period.

The most important statistic is winning games. Ortiz blows him away in that category.

And with all the injuries the Cardinals had, Pujols was just as important to his team. That's why Pujols deserved it as well.

 

[speedracer]

a look at the stats...

a-rod played in more games, had more runs scored, had more hits, more homeruns, more steals, a higher batting average, on base percentage, slugging percentage, more total bases, won a gold glove, and his team won the division over ortiz's team.

A-Rod didn't win the Gold Glove at 3B, Eric Chavez did. His range factor was worst among qualifying AL 3Bs, and his zone rating wa second worst, though his fielding percentage was close to the top.

I know it's notoriously difficult to measure fielding performance with stats, and A-Rod deserves credit for fielding a difficult position, but I think Chavez, Brandon Inge, Adrian Beltre, Joe Crede and Bill Mueller all had better seasons in the field than A-Rod did.

 

[Headache in a Suitcase]

alright fine eric chavez won the gold glove... whoopity doo... shows you how much i pay attention to the gold glove award.

yes you're right... ortiz's team won so many more games this year than a-rod's... disgraceful that they gave it to a-rod.

 

[phanan]

yes you're right... ortiz's team won so many more games this year than a-rod's... disgraceful that they gave it to a-rod.

As I already stated, the point isn't how many games each of their teams won, but how many games their teams would have won WITHOUT them. And I think it's fair to say the Red Sox would not have won as many without Ortiz while the Yankees would have pretty much won the same amount without Rodriguez.