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Old 10-21-2005, 07:55 AM   #316
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And you guys have yet to address my question about the 3 Super Bowls with 3 different QB's won by the Redskins in the 80s. This is proof that if the system, coaching and defense and offensive line are good, you could put just about anybody back there at QB and win. Not just anybody, certainly not me or you or Bono, but I mean the QB doesn't have to be anything all that special. Can you even name the 3 different QB's without looking it up online?
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Old 10-21-2005, 07:57 AM   #317
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and headache, why is Bono taller than Conan?
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Old 10-21-2005, 08:20 AM   #318
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And you guys have yet to address my question about the 3 Super Bowls with 3 different QB's won by the Redskins in the 80s. This is proof that if the system, coaching and defense and offensive line are good, you could put just about anybody back there at QB and win. Not just anybody, certainly not me or you or Bono, but I mean the QB doesn't have to be anything all that special. Can you even name the 3 different QB's without looking it up online?
Theisman, Williams, Rypien.

I addressed this, noting that the argument is flawed, because the Patriots won with only 1 QB, 2 time MVP Tom Brady.
The Redskins 3 wins were spread over significant time that they had to change not only QB (Theisman's leg was snapped like a braedstick by LT in 1985) but also a lot of other position players.
What impacy did Timmy Smith have on wins 1 and 3? He was MVP for the second of these wins. The constant offensively for Gibbs' teams was one of the greatest offensive lines ever assembled in the NFL (Also a big key to the 90's Cowboy's success, so you should then argue that anyone could have polayed QB for them an Troy Aikman was a replaceable part, but you don't cause you like Troy).
And if Gibbs's system is the sole reason for their success, explain last season to me and why Patrick Ramsey didn't hoist the Lombardi trophy. In the NFL, the coaching and system are important but every great coach from Don Shula to Jimmy Johnson to Bill Parcells to Joe Gibbs to Bill Belichick will tell you that you need great players to execute that sysem in order to succeed, and Tom Brady is a great QB, who executes a game plan as well as anyone in the NFL currently and is the coolest QB under pressure since the likes of Joe Montana, much cooler than Peyton Manning who shows visible signs of frustration on the field when things aren't going well for him (watch any film of him playing in New England, you'll see him gesturing frustratedly and confused to the sidelines, its a familiar pose for him in January).
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Old 10-21-2005, 10:22 AM   #319
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Originally posted by U2Kitten
And you guys have yet to address my question about the 3 Super Bowls with 3 different QB's won by the Redskins in the 80s. This is proof that if the system, coaching and defense and offensive line are good, you could put just about anybody back there at QB and win. Not just anybody, certainly not me or you or Bono, but I mean the QB doesn't have to be anything all that special. Can you even name the 3 different QB's without looking it up online?
i would've named them for ya but alas, hewson beat me to it.


so by this theory, that it's baisicly just the "system" when multiple QB's win for the same team...

perhaps then you could explain Hall of Famers Joe Montana and Steve Young... both of whom played in the same system and san francisco and won super bowls.

are they over-rated?
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Old 10-21-2005, 10:42 AM   #320
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Originally posted by Headache in a Suitcase
so by this theory, that it's baisicly just the "system" when multiple QB's win for the same team...

perhaps then you could explain Hall of Famers Joe Montana and Steve Young... both of whom played in the same system and san francisco and won super bowls.

are they over-rated?
No, Montana and Young were truly great. I admit Aikman was too though I despise him. I don't think Brady, Theismann, Williams or Rypien suck, just that they are not great. Kind of like the great vs. mediocrity thing in "Amadeus." I don't believe they would have been as successful without the team and coaches surrounding them.
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Old 10-21-2005, 10:47 AM   #321
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I don't believe they would have been as successful without the team and coaches surrounding them.
That can be said for nearly any athlete in a team sport, including Montana and Aikman. Would Jeter have four rings without his teammates? Jordan didn't win anything until he had a team around him and trusted them.
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Old 10-21-2005, 10:52 AM   #322
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Originally posted by U2Kitten


No, Montana and Young were truly great. I admit Aikman was too though I despise him. I don't think Brady, Theismann, Williams or Rypien suck, just that they are not great. Kind of like the great vs. mediocrity thing in "Amadeus." I don't believe they would have been as successful without the team and coaches surrounding them.
This is where your argument is flawed. Someone like Aikman was truly in a specific system that worked, but he executed it perfectly (with the effective results of 3 Super Bowl rings) and that's why he is considered great. Brady is the same way, and he's probably been in more clutch situations than Aikman was. To say Brady is mediocre because of the great system he's in, while saying Aikman is great for the same reasons, doesn't work.
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Old 10-21-2005, 11:01 AM   #323
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This is where your argument is flawed. Someone like Aikman was truly in a specific system that worked, but he executed it perfectly (with the effective results of 3 Super Bowl rings) and that's why he is considered great. Brady is the same way, and he's probably been in more clutch situations than Aikman was. To say Brady is mediocre because of the great system he's in, while saying Aikman is great for the same reasons, doesn't work.
So I leave out Aikman. Never liked him anyway, I really just added him because I do dislike him and wanted to prove that my dislike for Brady is not the only reason I diss on him. But Joe and Steve were something special. Joe was truly the 'chosen one' with a destiny.

In a way Steve was made great by Joe, having to follow an act like that and feeling he let everyone down when he didn't make the big game. His best friend and sister used to say in the off season he'd drive a piece of shit and not cash his paychecks because he felt he didn't earn them. He had something to prove and he drove himself. So maybe Joe was the only true great one in this bunch (but there are others) Don't mean to take anything away from Steve, he did it, many others would not have been able to do what he did.
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Old 10-21-2005, 11:18 AM   #324
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So basically what we are to infer is that any QB could thus have thrown 49 TD passes last season plaing in a dome for more than half his games with Marvin Harrison, Brandon Stokely and Reggie Wayne to throw to, and a system that emphasized the pass, including throwing the ball deep in the 4th quarter of games when leading by 20+ points.
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Old 10-21-2005, 11:49 AM   #325
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Originally posted by U2Kitten

Don't mean to take anything away from Steve, he did it, many others would not have been able to do what he did.
OK so Steve Young was great for winning 1 Super Bowl, taking over a system (you wanted to discuss systems remember) that dominated the league for over a decade and having the greatest wide receiver to ever play the game (I don't think anyone will argue that point) among his arsenal of weapons.
Yet Tom Brady has won 3 titles (and still has probably 10 good years left to attempt more), and his weapons are vastly inferior to those that Young had around him, but Brady is mediocre to Young's great.
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Old 10-21-2005, 02:35 PM   #326
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So basically what we are to infer is that any QB could thus have thrown 49 TD passes last season plaing in a dome for more than half his games with Marvin Harrison, Brandon Stokely and Reggie Wayne to throw to, and a system that emphasized the pass, including throwing the ball deep in the 4th quarter of games when leading by 20+ points.
Peyton may very well be great too, I think he is, but time will tell. He does need titles, and he knows it, he's working on it.

But I don't think a title alone makes a great QB or that not having one doesn't make you great. I think Marino and Tarkenton and Fouts are greater than Brady, Theismann, Williams and Rypien. I especially consider Rypien a mediocre player at best. I don't think Young would have been great on another team, he did ride the coattails of a great team and system, but still not just anyone could have accomplished what he did in his own right. Jeff Garcia sure stunk the place out. Steve was driven to not let people down after the act he had to follow, he led himself to greatness, but I don't think it was as natural as Joe's.

Speaking of the 49ers, it is a shame how Eddie D lost the team to his sister due to his 'conflict of interest' fiasco about the riverboat gambling, conspiring with La's crooked and now jailed governer. His sister won't let him have it back, and she and her husband have IMO ruined a great organization. The drop in their standings and status speaks for itself. They were able to sustain themselves for awhile on leftovers, but once TO was gone, it was over.
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Old 10-21-2005, 02:56 PM   #327
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Well certainly Jeff Garcia isn't quite in the class of Young and/or Montana, but to be fair to him the Niners franchise was in decline when he took over.
But Young would not likely have been a champ had he stayed in Tampa for his entire career, so as in most cases, its a combination of QB, other players, coaching and system.

Rypien was not by any means an all time great QB, but he did some things well, including throwng the deep ball well which fit nicely into the Redskins offense at the time. He isn't headed for Canton, but I'll bet you Tom Brady is.
The QB's playing right now, here's my assessment on hall of fame potential:
Sure things: Favre, Peyton Manning, Brady.
Almost sure thing: Drew Bledsoe
Probably, but need a few years more to be sure: Donovan McNabb
Shows potential, but too early in career: Michael Vick, Daunte Culpepper
Has the promise but way way too early to tell: Carson Palmer, Eli Manning
Outside shot but not likely: Steve McNair
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Old 10-21-2005, 03:10 PM   #328
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Peyton may very well be great too, I think he is, but time will tell. He does need titles, and he knows it, he's working on it.

Peyton's basically already written a ticket to Canton, his numbers will get him there regardless. But if he never wins, he'll be regarded like Marino, "Best QB to never win" or whatever label people like to use, whereas Montana is just regarded by many as the best because along with great regular season play he delivered championships. Now Peyton has several years left and may well win a title or 2, he's got a good team around him and his window of opportunity is clearly now, but until he does, its a stigma that could stick.
Its an eerily similar to Brady and Manning currently. Marino always put up bigger numbers than Montana, but Montana won 4 titles.
Peyton clearly has bigger numbers than Brady, but Brady is no slouch during the regular season, and delivers championships.
I know you like to think he is a just a small cog in the Pats' machine, but trust me, I watch them every week, he is the one player this team can not afford to lose. He did lead the team on 2 Super Bowl winning drives, thats gotta count for something.
The way he handled the clock in SB 36 was phenomenal for a 2nd year player who was in his first season as starter. Watch the replay of his spike of the ball just before Vinatieri's winning kick...calm, no panic, spikes the ball, it bounces staright back to his throwing hand, he twirls it non chaalantly before giving it to an official...the kid doesn't show any sign of feeling pressure in big situations...much like Montana.
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Old 10-21-2005, 03:10 PM   #329
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Originally posted by Hewson

The QB's playing right now, here's my assessment on hall of fame potential:

Has the promise but way way too early to tell: Eli Manning
if you understood the pain it took hewson to make this statement, you would certainly not argue with him any longer.
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Old 10-21-2005, 03:12 PM   #330
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if you understood the pain it took hewson to make this statement, you would certainly not argue with him any longer.
My fingers cramped up as soon as I hit E-l, but I pressed on.
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