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Old 03-02-2003, 01:54 PM   #31
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Originally posted by The Wanderer
Honestly I really dont know what qualifies as innovative, I just know that no one else sounded like the Pumpkins, and their songs changed drastically with each release. Billy Corgan has written some brilliant lyrics over the years....
Well said Wanderer.

Anyway... to those of you barking over the word 'innovative', I have never used it before and quite frankly have never been part of a conversation where it was used, so I am innocent in regards to the over use of the word. I would say influential has been defined to death. A word too many of you were mistaking with my premise for this thread. I would also like to add that not choosing a band because of its members passed drug use is ridiculous. If we put all alcoholic/druggie bands on an untouchable shelf where they couldn't be held among the great, you unfortunately would be left with nothing. There is no room in rock'n'roll for the judging of ones morals over talent.
And I never expected for you all to agree, I clearly said, I wanted to hear who you thought were. Not just simply cut down why you don't think the Pumpkins are. That's not a discussion.
Thank-you to those who provided alternative bands... and let it be said, I purposfully left out U2 in the running, or I would have posted this in EYKIW. Anyway, I don't think U2 were the most innovative band of the 90's. Guess it depends how you define innovative.

This thread bores me now.
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Old 03-02-2003, 02:08 PM   #32
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FWIW Angel - *I* wasn't judging anyone's morals. I don't think anyone was judging anyone's morals here.

For me, being put-off by things you find out about people and "judging" them are two totally different things. How I feel about Billy as a person and how I feel about his talent and amazing catalog of music is not related either.
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Old 03-02-2003, 03:20 PM   #33
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Originally posted by HelloAngel
How I feel about Billy as a person and how I feel about his talent and amazing catalog of music is not related either.
but do you really know billy "as a person," this is a ridiculous statement. i've heard good and bad things about corgan over the years, i'm sure some of it's true, some of it is made up, some of it is exaggerated or taken out of context... for instance, if you listen to sharon and kelly osbourne, they will say that billy corgan is the devil, because sharon and billy could not "get along" with each other when she managed the band briefly, corgan doesnt talk about it, yet every chance kelly osbourne gets she says something obscene about corgan (claiming corgan went down on a radio program director to get invited to the krock xmas festival in ny, but of course kelly is a mega-talent, that's how she gets her own album and video... ), ah, i digress... point is, it happened several years ago and the osbournce women insist on perpetuating this vendetta of sorts -- and who cares if some 'industry people' he worked with in the past think he's a pain-in-the-ass/ control freak?

when bringing up Billy Corgan's "character flaws,"does anyone ever talk about how in each city the band performed, 100% of the ticket price was given to local youth oriented non-profit organizations during the US/Canadian tour for Adore? but he probably didnt smile enough when they wrote the checks or something...
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Old 03-02-2003, 03:30 PM   #34
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Wanderer,

Please understand that you do not know where I've been, and how I came to learn things about Billy. What the Osbournes say about him I could care less about. If you want to attack my credibility when speaking on people, feel free to do so. I didn't post to warrant a shitstorm. I was just stating my opinion, just like everyone else. I did not judge him, and I do not assume to poke holes in anyone else's statement on what they do or do not know about someone. If I didn't have credible information, why the heck would I post that I did? What would I stand to gain? So what if I don't care for the guy as a person?
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Old 03-02-2003, 03:32 PM   #35
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Bleh.
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Old 03-02-2003, 03:41 PM   #36
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I'm just going to apologize now for offending anyone. It wasn't my intention or my mission.

Smashing Pumpkins were a great band and I wish they were still together. Zwan is very interesting as well, and I look forward to hearing more of their stuff.

I will say though, I don't think it's nice or fair to assume anything about anyone around here. We don't know each other, and thus can't know who everyone is and what they've done or do professionally.
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Old 03-02-2003, 03:56 PM   #37
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I think HA was just saying what personally turned her off from the band. I don't think she was suggesting that other people should feel the same way, but just stating something that it's hard for her to get past. People like and dislike bands for all kinds of reasons (all the comments in this forum about how ugly some bands/artists attest to that....). I know it's hard not to get defensive of bands you like, but I don't think HA meant any harm.
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Old 03-02-2003, 04:26 PM   #38
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HelloAngel, my comments weren't directed entirely at you. No hard feelings k? It's just that people far too often hold things against great bands because they may or may not have made some choices in their past that do not coincide with personal views. It seems ludicrous really, to knock a band for comepletely NON musical reasons. (Again, not entirely directed at you).
I don't know what you used to do, or who you know or have met. It just seems like often when discussing certain bands you always have something to say about them personally and if you can't or won't for whatever reason, back up your opinions with actual facts, than, is it really any of our business who you know or used to know or what you have seen? Maybe it's best to leave that stuff out and just carry on with the discussion talking about the music, when really, that's all that matters, and personally, all I care about.

I was just talking about a great band that made some pretty amazing music in the 90's and I will stand by that. Smashing Pumpkins rock my world.
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Old 03-02-2003, 04:31 PM   #39
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I still think I am right though
Jon Spencer Blues Explosion or Beck
though I do also sort agree with whomever said Underworld
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Old 03-02-2003, 05:15 PM   #40
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uh, ok, but you're floating innuendos around, this happens constantly in the world today, it's a very passive-aggressive way to attack someone or something, the whole 'i don't agree with you so i'll launch a personal attack to discredit you even if i cant really prove it because you cant disprove it' mind-set... now am i boardering on absurdity here? i guess for even caring about this and defending something i really dont know much about, hey you say you actually even like the band's work in the 90s, but you basically think billy corgan is a dickhead/scum bag? super! these are the times we are living in and it shouldnt aggravate me that this dominates public debate and discourse.

it's like the other day, I was listening to a conservative fellar, he was interviewing one of the Kennedy boys, Kennedy was saying 'fewer SUVs, tougher polution laws, etc'

the interviewer fellar didnt want to debate whether this was a good idea for the country to conserve energy and decrease pollution (because that's not on the conservative agenda), he wanted to ridicule Kennedy because his family is wealthy and he's most certainly used jets and limos in his life... interviewer fellar says "well you're an intelligent man and skilled at what you do but you're a morally dishonest hypocrite," so the Kennedy boy says, "why cant we have a discussion about the idea and resovle the problem?" earth and dying soldiers/civillians say nothing.

if you disagree with politician, candidate or activist, attack them personally. make sure to keep your sources and quotes "annonymous." you dont have to prove anything in this day and age, you just have to put the notion in someone's head.

please, by all means, point me in the direction of some credible stories that support your knowledge of Corgan's devious activities. certainly they must have surfaced in the last 13 years?

Salome, have to agree with Beck, not sure about JS Blues Explosion, in what way? (not saying it's innacurate, just dont understand, probably because I'm not a musician or I have to train my ears some more)
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Old 03-02-2003, 07:48 PM   #41
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Angel,

Thank you for your fairness, and I do agree with you. I will have a different approach to music discussion from here on out. Promise.

I have apologized to everyone in this thread, and I surely hope that will be enough.
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Old 03-02-2003, 08:36 PM   #42
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I'm suprised no one has mentioned Rage Against the Machine.

There, I just mentioned them.
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Old 03-02-2003, 09:12 PM   #43
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Not that I have any thing good to say, and I haven't read the whole thread... but, I think some of you are confusing the word innovation with invention...

Innovation is not necessarily something new... it is merely a modification of an existing idea. Invention is the creation of something.

In the medium of Rock anything can be considered innovation, so I don't know what all the fuss is about here. All the bands mentioned contributed some way to the sounds of the nineties... I don't think any of them were after the title of most innovative band... except maybe Radiohead (just to clarify, I do like Radiohead, and that was not in any way an insult)...well, think I've covered all my bases...
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Old 03-02-2003, 10:34 PM   #44
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Cujo, you've singlehandedly offended me in everyway possible. I hate you and everything you stand for.
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Old 03-02-2003, 10:38 PM   #45
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Looks like the old conundrum of naming of sources to me. HelloAngel, you've never been comfortable discussing your industry background, which is fine, but you'll dig yourself a hole if you use the knowledge gained from that background to make a judgement and then elaborate no further than to say it was from 'industry sources'. As Wanderer says, in that situation its just gossip or innuendo and ultimately the argument will go nowhere because people will disagree or say, 'where's this from?' In future it might be an idea to keep those opinions away from a public forum unless you want to be pressed about their sources.

Most Innovative band of the 90s...mmm I can't say I totally agree with any choices here aside from Beck and perhaps Radiohead. I like to think that Mercury Rev have done some very intriguing stuff, but is it innovative to work from a musical pallette that has more in common with the 19th century, kinda like The Band?

I think alot of Super Furry Animals stuff has shown some great innovation.
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