The Joker

[trevster2k]

And while I can understand hardcore fans of the Batman comics being upset by the changes, I say fuck them.

What an ignorant thing to say. Without the hardcore fans, there would be no comic book movies ever. The reason these films get made is because an idea which was originally in comic book form was so fantastic, it entered the mainstream of society. Hardcore fans are the reason why X-men, Spiderman, Batman, Superman and so on are around today 40, 50, and 60 plus years later. After this comic movie run ends, the hardcore fans will still be supporting the characters in their original form so a couple of generations from now, new fans can continue to enjoy the stories.

Most comic book films, like 80%, are shit because of one thing, they change stuff. Look at the recent Underdog movie, it has nothing to do with the original concept of the comic or cartoon and thus is shite.

 

[waynetravis]

Instead of just being a white-colored freak, he's an insane sociopath that puts on clown make-up before going out and terrorizing people.

I love it.

I agree.

Looking at the 2nd to last picture and thinking of the voice from the teaser trailer, I think your description pretty much sums it up

 

[Slapnutz]

The Joker is still The Joker. Why does he need to be mutated to have white skin? That doesn't mean anything. I stand by what I said about his character and the make-up. I think it's the best choice.

The bleached skin is an essential part of the character, both mentally and superficially. At the end of the day, Batman can go home, take off his cowl, iron his pants, even retire. The Joker is the Joker for life. He's incurable and is reminded of that by his own reflection.

The Joker wearing make-up is like Harvey wearing a fake scar.

 

[Lancemc]

Most comic book films, like 80%, are shit because of one thing, they change stuff. Look at the recent Underdog movie, it has nothing to do with the original concept of the comic or cartoon and thus is shite.

Wrong.

Most comic book films are shit because of one of or any combination of the following,

A: The original comic/concept was never any good to begin with

B: The comic was just never well suited for a film adaptation anyway

C: Shit filmmakers behind the project

 

[Lancemc]

The bleached skin is an essential part of the character, both mentally and superficially. At the end of the day, Batman can go home, take off his cowl, iron his pants, even retire. The Joker is the Joker for life. He's incurable and is reminded of that by his own reflection.

The Joker wearing make-up is like Harvey wearing a fake scar.

I'm not saying he hasn't changed the character a bit. He obviously has. But I am saying that the change is going to be a good one for the film.

And really, a sociopath is always going to be a sociopath. The insanity and villainy of The Joker is still intact, it's just a different appearance and method. A method which I think is already much more terrifying and effective.

 

[Slapnutz]

I'm not saying he hasn't changed the character a bit. He obviously has. But I am saying that the change is going to be a good one for the film.

And really, a sociopath is always going to be a sociopath. The insanity and villainy of The Joker is still intact, it's just a different appearance and method. A method which I think is already much more terrifying and effective.

Have you ever read Batman #1 and #2, Lance? These are the main inspiration for Nolan's Joker. He described both stories as being "eerily close" to his interpretation.

 

[elevated_u2_fan]

More like the Bat Office.

I've never been that attached to Batman but the last movie really impressed me, I personally don't have a problem with Nolan taking the standard Batman conventions to different places. I hope this movie is as good as the last.

 

[Lancemc]

No I haven't, and we haven't seen the film either, so who can say what the plot is.

But all I've heard since Batman Begins was announced was how frustrated all the comic fans were about what he's been doing to their beloved franchise.

My believe is this. As long as he does everything he can to create the absolute best film he can, no matter what the source material, he's done a good thing.

 

[Slapnutz]

No I haven't, and we haven't seen the film either, so who can say what the plot is.

But all I've heard since Batman Begins was announced was how frustrated all the comic fans were about what he's been doing to their beloved franchise.

My believe is this. As long as he does everything he can to create the absolute best film he can, no matter what the source material, he's done a good thing.

The Batman fans worship Nolan. In fact, it's actually quite scary. It's just his version of the Joker many take issue with.

Anyway, in Batman 1 and 2 the Joker wears flesh coloured make up to conceal his true identity (he's always been billed as the master of disguise) and his entire body is revealed to be perm-white. I think it's no coincidence Nolan cites these two issues.

 

[Slapnutz]

I want a pair...

 

[trevster2k]

Wrong.

Most comic book films are shit because of one of or any combination of the following,

A: The original comic/concept was never any good to begin with

B: The comic was just never well suited for a film adaptation anyway

C: Shit filmmakers behind the project

These are indeed factors as to why the films suck but the changing of the original source material is a factor too. Because then the whole character or story is weakened by the supposed improvement by a director or studio execs who want their vision of the character of the film. Actually, 80% of all films are shit anyway regardless of what inspires them.

But go read Frank Miller's run on Daredevil regarding the Elektra Saga and you will understand what I and other fans have problems with when comics are put on film. This is just one example. Nolan did a good job with Batman Begins and hopefully the final cut of the film will surpass the first.

For the record , I find your posts to be very rude at times and condescending. Grow up and respect the interests and opinions of others.

 

[LMP]

These are indeed factors as to why the films suck but the changing of the original source material is a factor too. Because then the whole character or story is weakened by the supposed improvement by a director or studio execs who want their vision of the character of the film. Actually, 80% of all films are shit anyway regardless of what inspires them.

This is 100% spot-on. I was reading James Cameron's treatment/script of Spider-Man online last night... it was terrible. I'm a huge Cameron fan, but it was almost like he said "okay, let me take a beloved superhero, re-write the backstory that makes him great, and just make it bloated and visually amazing."

I'm all for making the best movie possible, and Nolan made a solid base for a potentially great series, but if too many liberties are taken with the character/story, then it's laying a big Cameronshit over everything.

(and Michael Biehn would've been Spidey, love the guy but that would've been absolutely terrible.)

 

[Lancemc]

For the record , I find your posts to be very rude at times and condescending. Grow up and respect the interests and opinions of others.

I respect the opinions of people who engage in discussions that they can intelligently participate in. You have been one such person. Otherwise, I make no effort to "play nice" on an anonymous internet forum so as not to "offend" anyone.

I'm here to share information, debate and discussion, not to make friends (as many here are so quick to point out. ). I have "real life" for that.

So spare the lecture, kay?

 

[Lancemc]

This is 100% spot-on. I was reading James Cameron's treatment/script of Spider-Man online last night... it was terrible. I'm a huge Cameron fan, but it was almost like he said "okay, let me take a beloved superhero, re-write the backstory that makes him great, and just make it bloated and visually amazing."

I'm all for making the best movie possible, and Nolan made a solid base for a potentially great series, but if too many liberties are taken with the character/story, then it's laying a big Cameronshit over everything.

(and Michael Biehn would've been Spidey, love the guy but that would've been absolutely terrible.)

I actually liked a lot of the ideas Cameron had in his scriptment (if wasn't a script, just to point out an important difference). He really changed the Peter Parker character, and you know I love Raimi's Spiderman films, but Cameron's vision would have been extremely interesting. A more adult and truly conflicted Parker would make for an interesting film, and Cameron's take on Electro opened up a lot of possibilities for some amazing action (a lot of scenes in Cameron's treatment ended up in Raimi's films anyway, shot for shot in some cases), including the truly impressive final battle which I would have loved to see in film.

Spiderman 2 is a damn near perfect film. 1 and 3 aren't that hot, and I think Cameron's Spiderman would have been a better film than either of those two turned out to be.

 

[LMP]

I actually liked a lot of the ideas Cameron had in his scriptment (if wasn't a script, just to point out an important difference). He really changed the Peter Parker character, and you know I love Raimi's Spiderman films, but Cameron's vision would have been extremely interesting. A more adult and truly conflicted Parker would make for an interesting film, and Cameron's take on Electro opened up a lot of possibilities for some amazing action (a lot of scenes in Cameron's treatment ended up in Raimi's films anyway, shot for shot in some cases), including the truly impressive final battle which I would have loved to see in film.

Spiderman 2 is a damn near perfect film. 1 and 3 aren't that hot, and I think Cameron's Spiderman would have been a better film than either of those two turned out to be.

Yes, a good portion of Cameron's scriptment (that's what it's called apparently) was in Koepp's draft, but I don't want to see a conflicted, adult Peter Parker. I'd rather see Tony Stark or Bruce Wayne like that, you know?

To pull off Spidey, there has to be that humor while still being action-packed and have some emotional drama. I think Raimi's one of the only directors around who has the ability to do that, not Cameron, at least for me.

I could see Cameron making a kick-ass Superman movie, hell, how amazing would it have been if he did Transformers (not a comic, I know, but stick with me here)?

James Cameron, the golden god that he is, would not have been able to make a good Spider-Man movie, pure and simple.

 

[Lancemc]

Your probably right, although T2 had a perfect balance of humour as well when the film called for it. Even Aliens had that to a very small extent, though only in the first act.

I won't even talk about True Lies. Enjoyable as that film is.

That said, I just watched Schindler's List tonight for the first time in over a year or so, and I laughed out loud several times that I literally shocked myself. Is that a bad sign.

 

[lazarus]

That said, I just watched Schindler's List tonight for the first time in over a year or so, and I laughed out loud several times that I literally shocked myself. Is that a bad sign.

If it was when Schindler breaks down at the end, "If I only could have saved one more!" you had every right to laugh at that shameless, phony, maudlin bullshit.

Or maybe you laughed when the girl with the pink jacket ran across the screen. Oh my god, he's trying to be artsy!

Spielberg, Man With a Movie Hammer.

 

[Lancemc]

Actually I didn't. Though I did find Schindler's breakdown to be a poor bit of filmmaking indeed. Lame.

I didn't have any problems with the girl in the red coat. I actually thought it was rather effective. Yeah he's being a little artsy, but I sort of worked this time.

My only genuinely big problem with the film though was the last coloured segment. Totally unneccesary.

 

[WildHoneyAlways]

Actually I didn't. Though I did find Schindler's breakdown to be a poor bit of filmmaking indeed. Lame.

I didn't have any problems with the girl in the red coat. I actually thought it was rather effective. Yeah he's being a little artsy, but I sort of worked this time.

My only genuinely big problem with the film though was the last coloured segment. Totally unneccesary.

Are you talking about the survivors placing stones on his grave?

 

[Lancemc]

Yeah.

And I understand why Spielberg put it in the film, I just don't like it there.

 

[LMP]

Would you guys have liked a Scorcese-directed Schindler's List better than a Spielberg one?

Other than the Schindler breakdown at the end, I think it's Spielberg's best movie of his career so far.

 

[Lancemc]

I have a feeling A Scorsese-directed Schindler's List would have been about on par with Spielberg's.

Scorsese's probably wouldn't have been as subdued or subtle throughout most of the film, but it also probably would have had a more appropriate ending to it. So I say it balances out.

 

[LMP]

but Lazarus wouldn't have another excuse to shit all over Spielberg at the mention of Schindler's...

 

[Lancemc]

True.

And then we'd all be missing out.

 

[Lancemc]

And speaking of Scorsese, I watched Gangs of New York again the other night, and it made me think how un-Scorsese a lot of that film really is. I wonder what the deal was. Maybe he had just been working so long on that picture that he started to lose focus? I dunno.

 

[LMP]

I missed this before:

Your probably right, although T2 had a perfect balance of humour as well when the film called for it. Even Aliens had that to a very small extent, though only in the first act.

I won't even talk about True Lies. Enjoyable as that film is.

T2's humor is there, mainly because of how stiff Schwartzenegger is throughout and supercrazy Sarah Conner. Definitely not the same humor for Spidey (a Schwartzenegger Doc Ock would've been lame, but never ever as bad as Mr. Freeze.)

True Lies does get points though for making Tom Arnold likable.

 

[Lancemc]

With the new advances in Performance capture, Micheal Beihn can now play every character in every movie.

Finally, the world shall be at peace.

 

[LMP]

With the new advances in Performance capture, Micheal Beihn can now play every character in every movie.

Finally, the world shall be at peace.

And no one will ever blink again.

Add some Bill Paxton to that and now we're all in good shape.

Back to Batman, Batman Returns is severely underrated. Discuss.

 

[Lancemc]

Batman Returns is awesome. Just look at that cast. Totally bat-shit crazy movie too (pun-intended).

Army of penguins with rockets on their backs? Yes, please.

 

[LMP]

Michelle Pfieffer at the apex of her hotness , too. It could be the only superhero movie with 2 villains that actually works.

Plus, Christopher Walken plays an absolute dirtbag.

I only wish the Keaton/Burton combo did Forever.