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Old 06-30-2008, 10:19 AM   #646
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So you're saying you support this appreciation of Batman Forever?



This is the bottom line. I can't really champion the Burton films because I never felt like Burton understood the character. Burton is a gothy misfit loser and that's not really what Batman is. It's why Batman Returns worked more for me, because The Penguin and Catwoman are much closer to where Burton's pet obsessions lie.

Also, regarding the "poorly edited" action scenes of Batman Begins, I think there's a misconception there. They were edited deliberately to be confusing; unlike most fantasy/action films where the choreography is clearly displayed to the audience, the point here was to disorient the viewer much in the way that Batman uses misdirection and theatrics to disorient his opponents. If you notice, on that fight scene on the docks, you barely (if at all) see a full shot of Batman. He comes quickly out of the shadows, strikes, and slips immediately back into them, like a ghost (or ninja!).

I thought this approach was rather obvious. If it doesn't work for you, it doesn't work, but I think it's a bit unfair to accuse Nolan of being sloppy here.
1. Not at all. Batman Forever is a nightmare. I just appreciate his enthusiasm.

2. Did you hear that somewhere, like an interview or something? I'd be really curious to read it from the source. The scene you mention I completely understand the intentions behind, (the ghost in the shadows stuff) but there's still no suspense or rhythm to it. It's a great set-piece in its conception, but I still don't think he pulls it off as entertainment. If he intended to choreograph controlled chaos that's one thing, but is there really any reason why it still can't be engaging or thrilling? Maybe there is, and maybe it just doesn't work for me, like you said. Either way it's not too big of a deal, because I still like the movie.
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Old 06-30-2008, 11:20 AM   #647
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well IGN loved it:

IGN: The Dark Knight Review
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Old 06-30-2008, 12:19 PM   #648
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2. Did you hear that somewhere, like an interview or something? I'd be really curious to read it from the source. The scene you mention I completely understand the intentions behind, (the ghost in the shadows stuff) but there's still no suspense or rhythm to it. It's a great set-piece in its conception, but I still don't think he pulls it off as entertainment. If he intended to choreograph controlled chaos that's one thing, but is there really any reason why it still can't be engaging or thrilling? Maybe there is, and maybe it just doesn't work for me, like you said. Either way it's not too big of a deal, because I still like the movie.
I believe the specific scene being discussed actually was pulled directly from Year One (or possibly Long Halloween), and is essentially shot exactly the same as the scene is framed in the book.
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Old 06-30-2008, 12:34 PM   #649
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Well, I don't want to keep ragging on something that I actually don't have that big of a problem with, but if that's the case I might as well continue to play the devil's advocate.

If that's exactly how it's drawn in the book, who's to say that's exactly the best way to translate it to film? Aren't action scenes in comics inherently designed to that the mind's eye fills in the gaps between frames? Comics are very space-conscious narrative forms, they have to be. How do they show a lengthy action scene in a specified number of frames that are still large enough to look at? You have to pick and choose which moments from the supposed event to demonstrate the action on the page. Film is a different beast, a real-time showcase of the narrative at hand. So the film version is choppy and off-beat. Maybe that's the intent, and maybe it's modeled directly off the book, which is fine, except maybe it could have been done just different enough for the film that it still worked as a great kinetic set-piece.
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Old 06-30-2008, 12:46 PM   #650
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Regardless, it's one of my favorite moments in the film, or any Batman film for that matter. For the same reason I mentioned why I liked BB before, because it actually IS how a Batman movie should look and feel.
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Old 06-30-2008, 01:21 PM   #651
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The whole 'see Batman from the criminal's perspective' worked well during the docks scene (not based on Year One, by the way) and Arkham take down, but it really outstayed its welcome by the third act. There was absolutely no need for it during the final ninja/train sequence.

Nolan has always sold the choppy editing as a creative choice, but nevertheless it arose from limitations. According to those who attended a recent TDK screening with Wally Pfister (cinematographer), 'Christian apparently only had a limited amount of fight choreography training for BB, which is why the edits are so fast. (Wally was adamant it was not bad hand-held camera work.) It's mostly his stunt double Buster Reeves doing the fighting. For TDK, Christian had a lot more time to learn the fights and participate in the stunts, so there will be no quick cuts and Buster only did a few stunts this time. It's also Christian in the batsuit on top of the Sears Tower, with only a thin string to keep him safe.'
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Old 06-30-2008, 01:25 PM   #652
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As for him not saying much, that IS Bruce Wayne/Batman.
If anything, he rarely shuts up in Batman Begins. He'd talk a glass eye to sleep.
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Old 06-30-2008, 06:14 PM   #653
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YouTube - The Dark Knight Dominos Trailer



Incredible trailer
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Old 06-30-2008, 06:19 PM   #654
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Very cool. In fact, the best yet.

You can watch HD version here: https://www.dominosvault.com/main.swf But I don't have the patience...
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Old 07-01-2008, 06:28 AM   #655
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Those of you who are closely watching the hype, reading reviews etc.... be careful. There is a huge and controversial spoiler out there (not yet 100% confirmed) that you'll be lucky to avoid.
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Old 07-01-2008, 09:03 AM   #656
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Those of you who are closely watching the hype, reading reviews etc.... be careful. There is a huge and controversial spoiler out there (not yet 100% confirmed) that you'll be lucky to avoid.
You mean beyond the ones that have already been discussed in here?
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Old 07-01-2008, 10:07 AM   #657
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What was your criticism of BB? It didn't have the most original or mind-blowing action scenes, but it had an epic quality and brought a lot of dignity back to the character. Plus, this exchange at the end of the film, where Gordon says: "I never got a chance to thank you." and Batman responds "...and you'll never have to." I got chills at how well this nailed the character. And the Joker card? Just a note-perfect ending.
Exactly. I had lost faith in the Batman series after the disaster that was the Clooney film, but this restored it (except for the whole Katie Holmes bit).

Quote:
Originally Posted by lazarus View Post
This is the bottom line. I can't really champion the Burton films because I never felt like Burton understood the character. Burton is a gothy misfit loser and that's not really what Batman is. It's why Batman Returns worked more for me, because The Penguin and Catwoman are much closer to where
Batman Returns will always be my favorite Batman film, based solely on the fact that Michelle Peiffer's Catwoman fucking rules.
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Old 07-01-2008, 03:04 PM   #658
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The spoiler was not mentioned here. I still curse the fucker who spilled it out of nowhere on a certain discussion site.
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Old 07-01-2008, 03:13 PM   #659
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The spoiler was not mentioned here. I still curse the fucker who spilled it out of nowhere on a certain discussion site.
Was it on AICN?
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Old 07-01-2008, 03:53 PM   #660
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Here's a link to 20 pro reviews: Forums - Update: Dark Knight 20 positve reviews, 0 Negative

You're welcome.
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