The Joker
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Lancemc
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My criticisms of Batman Begins aren't particularly major. Just a few things that combined to a satisfactory and enjoyable, but not quite exceptional experience. Action is the big one. None of the scenes were especially well filmed and most were pretty poorly edited. They lacked energy and rhythm. But they were still passable. I really liked the first part of the film, prelude to the creation of Batman, with the Ninjas and all that. Good stuff. However, by the time the film started to feel like Batman, it wasn't too compelling. I personally thought Scarecrow was a terrible movie villain, and overall the film lacked a cohesive conflict, I had trouble identifying with the trajectory of the film for much or its duration. I guess it seemed a bit aimless. And by the time Ra's Al Ghul came back into the fray (the final 20 minutes are probably my favorite in the film, and the very end really was excellent), it's just a bit too little a bit too late.
So ultimately the two biggest nagging issues are the generally uneven, meandering pace of the plot, and the surprisingly incompetent action scenes in comparison to the quality of the rest of the film.
I still really like it though as a saving throw for the Batman franchise. 7/10
So ultimately the two biggest nagging issues are the generally uneven, meandering pace of the plot, and the surprisingly incompetent action scenes in comparison to the quality of the rest of the film.
I still really like it though as a saving throw for the Batman franchise. 7/10
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Slapnutz
Refugee
Personally, I really enjoyed Begins - thanks to the major action sequence at Ra's al Ghul's mountaintop temple (Bruce doing a belly slide to save 'Ducard' always puts a smile on my face), a swarm of CGI bats smashing through windows, the fear toxin scenes, the rooftop jumping Tumbler, the James Bond-esque interpretation of the microwave emitter, the League of Shadows mythology, the gravity defying execution of the cape-cum-glider (nice nod to Returns) and the entire Michael Bay on LSD third act.
Could have done without the corny, mood shattering one-liners and endless exposition, though. I also didn't appreciate that Bruce is essentially a non-entity, with every opinion and insight coming from those around him. The entire origin he's just led by the arm, spending time on the most basic issues and passing it off as deep character analysis. Bruce is always playing catchup to those around him, relies far too much on others, and seems to have a pretty average intellect.
LMP
Blue Crack Supplier
I can what you're saying about the action sequences. Bryan Singer's X-Men suffered from the same problem, but turned it around by the 2nd film in the series. Villain-wise, I thought it was a good mix of everything. For once, I was glad the film focused on Bruce Wayne / Batman IN a Batman film. Ra's was the main villain, played exceptionally well by Liam Neeson, then Cillian Murphy's Scarecrow fit well into everything, along with Tom Wilkinson's Falcone and his mob. I'm gonna be biased, since Batman's my favorite superhero, I saw it on my birthday in '05 and it blew my mind. It's the only superhero film who's origin story is engaging and satisfying enough to last almost the whole film. Replacing Katie Holmes with Maggie Gyllenhaal is one of the best upgrades that movie could've made, cast-wise, too.
Exactly.
Lancemc
Blue Crack Addict
Batman is my favorite superhero as well. The Animated Series pwned my childhood, but I've been waiting for an amazing Batman movie since I was old enough to pronounce his name. And Sadly Batman Begins didn't quite suffice, as much of an improvement it was over the Schumacher films.
From where I'm sitting Batman still hasn't seen a film incarnation on the level of Superman's first film outing, the X-Men's second, or anything close to Spiderman 2.
From where I'm sitting Batman still hasn't seen a film incarnation on the level of Superman's first film outing, the X-Men's second, or anything close to Spiderman 2.
LMP
Blue Crack Supplier
I'd put Burton's first Batman film and Begins up there with those films, along with Superman II, but that's just me.
The well's pretty dry on great superhero films, that's for sure.
The well's pretty dry on great superhero films, that's for sure.
Lancemc
Blue Crack Addict
After hearing everyone rave about The Donner cut of Superman 2 for years, I was pretty surprised to see just how horrifically cheesy, uneven, and unimaginative the whole thing still was. 
Lancemc
Blue Crack Addict
And for the record, while there's still time, I'm going to make sure I throw out my support once more for Hellboy II, my long-time underdog pick for this summer's crop of action films. We'll know soon enough if my faith is misplaced.
GirlsAloudFan
Blue Crack Addict
Batman Forever opened in the United States on June 15, 1995.
I will always remember that date for some reason. It's such a clean and sharp date...hard to forget. I was 9 years old. I had just recently seen Tim Burton's two Batman movies and they were astonishing to my young eyes. I had Batman fever! It was all I thought about that summer. I watched the old Adam West Batman tapes that my brother owned. I bought a couple comics (something I never do)...I was momentarily obsessed. And here was coming a brand-new Batman movie!
And it was starring Jim Carrey as the Riddler??? Carrey was one of my favorite actors at the time following his string of movies - Ace Ventura, the Mask, and Dumb and Dumber...all three of which my 9 year old self loved to death (and still do)
So my entire family went to the movies that night...June 15, 1995. I have very vivid memories of that night. I remember being just so damned excited. I remember the feel of the gravel beneath my shoes as I ran across the paved parking lot to the doors of the Cineplex.
And the movie did not disappoint. It was so long ago, and I've seen Batman Forever so many times, that I don't recall exactly what my thoughts were after that first screening on June 15th. I do remember that I loved it. I preordered a VHS copy of the movie from my local Blockbuster so that I would get it the day it came out on video. And I loved it more and more everytime I watched it.
i LOVED Batman Forever. (I won't even discuss the next one starring Arnie and Clooney)
So when Batman Begins came out I, for some reason, rebelled against it. I don't know why. Immaturity? A sense of entitlement? I don't know. But, for whatever reason, when I went and saw Batman Begins in that very same theater that I watched Batman Forever in all those years ago...I walked out after the first 10 minutes. I fucking hated it. I was bored to tears. This was NOT my Batman. I walked out and vowed I would never even give it a second chance.
I've seen it since...and I like it OK. But now that Heath has donned the purple suit...I'm excited for The Dark Knight.
To cut a long story a little bit shorter...I don't really like Batman Begins very much. But I can't wait to see what Heath does here. Hopefully he can bring back those feelings I felt as a 9 year old kid on June 15th, 1995.
I will always remember that date for some reason. It's such a clean and sharp date...hard to forget. I was 9 years old. I had just recently seen Tim Burton's two Batman movies and they were astonishing to my young eyes. I had Batman fever! It was all I thought about that summer. I watched the old Adam West Batman tapes that my brother owned. I bought a couple comics (something I never do)...I was momentarily obsessed. And here was coming a brand-new Batman movie!
And it was starring Jim Carrey as the Riddler??? Carrey was one of my favorite actors at the time following his string of movies - Ace Ventura, the Mask, and Dumb and Dumber...all three of which my 9 year old self loved to death (and still do)
So my entire family went to the movies that night...June 15, 1995. I have very vivid memories of that night. I remember being just so damned excited. I remember the feel of the gravel beneath my shoes as I ran across the paved parking lot to the doors of the Cineplex.
And the movie did not disappoint. It was so long ago, and I've seen Batman Forever so many times, that I don't recall exactly what my thoughts were after that first screening on June 15th. I do remember that I loved it. I preordered a VHS copy of the movie from my local Blockbuster so that I would get it the day it came out on video. And I loved it more and more everytime I watched it.
i LOVED Batman Forever. (I won't even discuss the next one starring Arnie and Clooney)
So when Batman Begins came out I, for some reason, rebelled against it. I don't know why. Immaturity? A sense of entitlement? I don't know. But, for whatever reason, when I went and saw Batman Begins in that very same theater that I watched Batman Forever in all those years ago...I walked out after the first 10 minutes. I fucking hated it. I was bored to tears. This was NOT my Batman. I walked out and vowed I would never even give it a second chance.
I've seen it since...and I like it OK. But now that Heath has donned the purple suit...I'm excited for The Dark Knight.
To cut a long story a little bit shorter...I don't really like Batman Begins very much. But I can't wait to see what Heath does here. Hopefully he can bring back those feelings I felt as a 9 year old kid on June 15th, 1995.
LMP
Blue Crack Supplier
Ugh. I've seen the same Hellboy trailer before 3 of the 4 movies I've seen this summer. I liked the first one and of course love Del Toro's visual sense, but this just doesn't excite me, especially for a summer film.
I think it would've been better placed as a big Spring film, you know? It's sandwiched between Hancock, which will be huge, regardless of its quality, and The Dark Knight. It may just get lost in the shuffle.
I think it would've been better placed as a big Spring film, you know? It's sandwiched between Hancock, which will be huge, regardless of its quality, and The Dark Knight. It may just get lost in the shuffle.
LMP
Blue Crack Supplier
Forever was my first "real" Batman film, too... but I was 6 years old when I first saw it. Going back to it now, it fucking sucks. It may have been "our Batman," but it wasn't Batman at all. It's more in line with the '60s Batman than anything else, which I do love, but should stay in the '60s, not show up in "my" Batman, you know? Back then, Nicole Kidman was the first girl I've ever had a movie-crush on, Jim Carrey was hilarious, Val Kilmer was a badass Batman, Chris O'Donnell was awesome because he got to work with Batman, and Tommy Lee Jones' face scared the hell out of me. It's amazing how opinions change in 10 years. Begins was the first Batman that I had seen in theaters, but I had seen the other 4, plus the '60s one, ad nauseum on VHS. I'm not trying to shit on your childhood memories, it's awesome that you love that movie, I wish I feel the same.
The Begins Batman is the truest representation of the comic book character, in my opinion.
Lancemc
Blue Crack Addict
I like you.
Don't go anywhere.
As for Hellboy. It's almost certainly going to get lost under the weight of Hancock and The Dark Knight. But it will likely thrive in DVD and Blu-ray sales much like the first film did, but there's no way I'm missing this one in theaters.
Glad to see some love for Hellboy. I'm nearly as excited for it as I am for Batman. I can't wait to see what Del Toro does with an actual budget for the sequel. The great thing with those films is how much they rely and fall back to the source material, it's great that Del Toro and Mignola are so close.
Being older than some of the others who've shared their Batman Forever memories, my "I'll forgive them because of good memories" thoughts go to the Burton films. To not detract from other's personal feelings, let's just say my memories of Forever are less than positive (particularly after seeing some of it again recently). While I still like the Burton films, Christopher Nolan was the first director who actually seemed to make a Batman film for actual Batman fans based on the modern version (last 20 to 30 yrs) of the actual character and source material. Don't get me wrong, it certainly took some liberties to the origin, but it finally felt like Batman the vigilante detective, not Batman the '60's comedy (hello Schumacker and to some extent Burton).
I don't ever really see Wayne as being unintelligent in Begins personally. Regardless, it's the origin story. He's supposed to be new to it all. He gets beat up by hookers in Year One if I remember correctly. As for him not saying much, that IS Bruce Wayne/Batman.
Being older than some of the others who've shared their Batman Forever memories, my "I'll forgive them because of good memories" thoughts go to the Burton films. To not detract from other's personal feelings, let's just say my memories of Forever are less than positive (particularly after seeing some of it again recently). While I still like the Burton films, Christopher Nolan was the first director who actually seemed to make a Batman film for actual Batman fans based on the modern version (last 20 to 30 yrs) of the actual character and source material. Don't get me wrong, it certainly took some liberties to the origin, but it finally felt like Batman the vigilante detective, not Batman the '60's comedy (hello Schumacker and to some extent Burton).
I don't ever really see Wayne as being unintelligent in Begins personally. Regardless, it's the origin story. He's supposed to be new to it all. He gets beat up by hookers in Year One if I remember correctly. As for him not saying much, that IS Bruce Wayne/Batman.
lazarus
Blue Crack Supplier
So you're saying you support this appreciation of Batman Forever?
This is the bottom line. I can't really champion the Burton films because I never felt like Burton understood the character. Burton is a gothy misfit loser and that's not really what Batman is. It's why Batman Returns worked more for me, because The Penguin and Catwoman are much closer to where Burton's pet obsessions lie.
Also, regarding the "poorly edited" action scenes of Batman Begins, I think there's a misconception there. They were edited deliberately to be confusing; unlike most fantasy/action films where the choreography is clearly displayed to the audience, the point here was to disorient the viewer much in the way that Batman uses misdirection and theatrics to disorient his opponents. If you notice, on that fight scene on the docks, you barely (if at all) see a full shot of Batman. He comes quickly out of the shadows, strikes, and slips immediately back into them, like a ghost (or ninja!).
I thought this approach was rather obvious. If it doesn't work for you, it doesn't work, but I think it's a bit unfair to accuse Nolan of being sloppy here.
LMP
Blue Crack Supplier
Lancemc
Blue Crack Addict
1. Not at all. Batman Forever is a nightmare. I just appreciate his enthusiasm.
2. Did you hear that somewhere, like an interview or something? I'd be really curious to read it from the source. The scene you mention I completely understand the intentions behind, (the ghost in the shadows stuff) but there's still no suspense or rhythm to it. It's a great set-piece in its conception, but I still don't think he pulls it off as entertainment. If he intended to choreograph controlled chaos that's one thing, but is there really any reason why it still can't be engaging or thrilling? Maybe there is, and maybe it just doesn't work for me, like you said. Either way it's not too big of a deal, because I still like the movie.
elevated_u2_fan
Blue Crack Supplier
I believe the specific scene being discussed actually was pulled directly from Year One (or possibly Long Halloween), and is essentially shot exactly the same as the scene is framed in the book.
Lancemc
Blue Crack Addict
Well, I don't want to keep ragging on something that I actually don't have that big of a problem with, but if that's the case I might as well continue to play the devil's advocate.
If that's exactly how it's drawn in the book, who's to say that's exactly the best way to translate it to film? Aren't action scenes in comics inherently designed to that the mind's eye fills in the gaps between frames? Comics are very space-conscious narrative forms, they have to be. How do they show a lengthy action scene in a specified number of frames that are still large enough to look at? You have to pick and choose which moments from the supposed event to demonstrate the action on the page. Film is a different beast, a real-time showcase of the narrative at hand. So the film version is choppy and off-beat. Maybe that's the intent, and maybe it's modeled directly off the book, which is fine, except maybe it could have been done just different enough for the film that it still worked as a great kinetic set-piece.
If that's exactly how it's drawn in the book, who's to say that's exactly the best way to translate it to film? Aren't action scenes in comics inherently designed to that the mind's eye fills in the gaps between frames? Comics are very space-conscious narrative forms, they have to be. How do they show a lengthy action scene in a specified number of frames that are still large enough to look at? You have to pick and choose which moments from the supposed event to demonstrate the action on the page. Film is a different beast, a real-time showcase of the narrative at hand. So the film version is choppy and off-beat. Maybe that's the intent, and maybe it's modeled directly off the book, which is fine, except maybe it could have been done just different enough for the film that it still worked as a great kinetic set-piece.
OP
OP
Slapnutz
Refugee
The whole 'see Batman from the criminal's perspective' worked well during the docks scene (not based on Year One, by the way) and Arkham take down, but it really outstayed its welcome by the third act. There was absolutely no need for it during the final ninja/train sequence.
Nolan has always sold the choppy editing as a creative choice, but nevertheless it arose from limitations. According to those who attended a recent TDK screening with Wally Pfister (cinematographer), 'Christian apparently only had a limited amount of fight choreography training for BB, which is why the edits are so fast. (Wally was adamant it was not bad hand-held camera work.) It's mostly his stunt double Buster Reeves doing the fighting. For TDK, Christian had a lot more time to learn the fights and participate in the stunts, so there will be no quick cuts and Buster only did a few stunts this time. It's also Christian in the batsuit on top of the Sears Tower, with only a thin string to keep him safe.'
Nolan has always sold the choppy editing as a creative choice, but nevertheless it arose from limitations. According to those who attended a recent TDK screening with Wally Pfister (cinematographer), 'Christian apparently only had a limited amount of fight choreography training for BB, which is why the edits are so fast. (Wally was adamant it was not bad hand-held camera work.) It's mostly his stunt double Buster Reeves doing the fighting. For TDK, Christian had a lot more time to learn the fights and participate in the stunts, so there will be no quick cuts and Buster only did a few stunts this time. It's also Christian in the batsuit on top of the Sears Tower, with only a thin string to keep him safe.'
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Slapnutz
Refugee
If anything, he rarely shuts up in Batman Begins. He'd talk a glass eye to sleep.
waynetravis
Blue Crack Supplier
OP
OP
Slapnutz
Refugee
Very cool. In fact, the best yet.
You can watch HD version here: https://www.dominosvault.com/main.swf But I don't have the patience...
djerdap
Rock n' Roll Doggie ALL ACCESS
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Those of you who are closely watching the hype, reading reviews etc.... be careful. There is a huge and controversial spoiler out there (not yet 100% confirmed) that you'll be lucky to avoid.
BVS
Blue Crack Supplier
You mean beyond the ones that have already been discussed in here?
LarryMullen's POPAngel
Blue Crack Distributor
Exactly. I had lost faith in the Batman series after the disaster that was the Clooney film, but this restored it (except for the whole Katie Holmes bit).
Batman Returns will always be my favorite Batman film, based solely on the fact that Michelle Peiffer's Catwoman fucking rules.
djerdap
Rock n' Roll Doggie ALL ACCESS
- Joined
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The spoiler was not mentioned here. I still curse the fucker who spilled it out of nowhere on a certain discussion site.
LMP
Blue Crack Supplier
Was it on AICN?
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Slapnutz
Refugee
Here's a link to 20 pro reviews: Forums - Update: Dark Knight 20 positve reviews, 0 Negative
You're welcome.
You're welcome.
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