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Old 04-03-2008, 05:24 PM   #136
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Some players just never make it to the playoffs, so I wouldn't weigh that too strictly when evaluating a player. It is very true that a closer's value to a team goes way up during the playoffs though, when games are tighter and there is no margin for error.

The biggest problem regarding top closers is that they have notoriously short shelf lives (e.g. Eric Gagne, Keith Foulke, Mitch Williams, Mark Wohlers, possibly Brad Lidge), so proclaiming Putz, Papelbon, Bobby Jenks, or...well...pretty much anybody except Mariano Rivera as the best closer in baseball at this point is very premature.
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Old 04-04-2008, 07:47 AM   #137
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I'm kinda with Headache here, until proven otherwise by somebody besides the '04 Sox or Joe Torre playing the infield in Mariano is the top October closer. As for starters it was Schilling of course, and I'd wager at present it's Beckett.

So anyway my crystal ball tells me the Sox will win the WS this year, over the Mets...and the WS MVP will be either Jacoby Ellsbury or Jon Lester. Why you ask? Consider:

2003 offseason...the Sox flirt for months with a Manny/ARod swap, but in the end they pull out, Manny stays, ARod famously ends up in pinstripes and the Sox beat the Yanks in the '04 ALCS before going on to win the WS with Manny winning MVP (I'd have voted for Foulke but anyway).

2006 offseason...the Sox discuss a majore deal with Colorado that would bring Todd Helton to Boston for Mike Lowell and Julian Tavarez. In the end the deal dies with help from the Rox loose-lipped owner. The Sox go on to beat the Rox in the WS with Mike Lowell named MVP.

2007 offseason...Sox again dick around for months on a megadeal, this time for Johan Santana. Names mentioned going Minnesota's way include Jon Lester and Jacoby Ellsbury (and Coco Crisp). Deal again falls through and Johan ends up a Met.

I'm telling you, it's a lock, history repeats...write it down. In ink.
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Old 04-04-2008, 09:26 AM   #138
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a closer's entire worth is based upon how clutch he is. therefore post-season performance weighs much heavier upon my decision making as to who's the best than any other position.

that said... is johan santana the best pitcher in baseball? yes, i believe so. if i need to win one game and one game only? at this point, based on their track record, i'd take beckett over santana.


and on that note, is mariano rivera the best closer in baseball, right now? no. is there anyone else i'd rather have on the mound in game 7 of the world series? no. is he the greatest closer of all time? yes, with zero argument.
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Old 04-04-2008, 09:34 AM   #139
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Quote:
Originally posted by the tourist
Anyway, I don't base my concepts of best player on their history of playoff performance. I base my concepts of best player on their playing.
here are two average seasons by two players... one is a hall of famer and legendary player, the other isn't in the hall of fame.

player 1's average season over a 16 year career (one mvp season)
.298, 30 homers, 113 rbi's

player 1's best season
.315, 46 homers, 139 rbi's

8 100 rbi seasons, 4 seasons of at least 39 homers

player 2's average season over a 21 year career (one mvp season)
.268, 32 homers, 98 rbi's

player 2's best season
.300, 41 homers, 111 rbi's

6 100 rbi seasons, 3 seasons of at least 39 homers


care to take a gander at which one's the legend and which one's not even in the hall of fame?
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Old 04-04-2008, 09:46 AM   #140
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Player 2 is the HoFer but I can't figure out who they are.
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Old 04-04-2008, 09:56 AM   #141
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Player 2 is the HoFer but I can't figure out who they are.
i'll give till lunch before i reveal... hewson might get it
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Old 04-04-2008, 10:39 AM   #142
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OK I know who player 1 is and I feel like an idiot...I won't tell it though. And I think player 2 had a shitload of Ks...when I first saw it I thought the players were Dale Murphy and Yaz but now I know who they are.
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Old 04-04-2008, 10:40 AM   #143
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Player 1 must be Jim Rice, who is shamefully not in the HOF.

I think Player 2 is Reggie Jackson, but if it is, you don't have the correct best season up there, unless the .300 avg. makes it better in your eyes.
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Old 04-04-2008, 12:07 PM   #144
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yea i guess the .275/47/118 season with oakland would be his best year.

yes, it's jim rice and reggie jackson. you really could make the argument that jim rice was the better player, but reggie jackson's a legend because of what he did in the clutch.

the idea of pumping someone up to an ever higher level than their numbers say they should be based upon clutch post-season performance is not a new phenomenon.
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Old 04-04-2008, 02:20 PM   #145
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Damn I wish I was here for the guessing game.
The 78 stats are engrained in my memory, so I'd have nailed Rice EZ.
Jackson I might have figured out due to the current argument.
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Old 04-04-2008, 03:00 PM   #146
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Quote:
Originally posted by Headache in a Suitcase
...is mariano rivera the best closer in baseball, right now? no. is there anyone else i'd rather have on the mound in game 7 of the world series? no.
That doesn't make any sense. If I want to win game 7 of the world series right now I take Papelbon, K-Rod, (a non-injured) Putz or maybe Nathan over Rivera, who hasn't been dominating in a few years.
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Old 04-04-2008, 04:00 PM   #147
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Quote:
Originally posted by Headache in a Suitcase
and on that note, is mariano rivera the best closer in baseball, right now? no. is there anyone else i'd rather have on the mound in game 7 of the world series? no. is he the greatest closer of all time? yes, with zero argument.
[/debate]
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Old 04-05-2008, 10:23 AM   #148
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Quote:
Originally posted by John Lackey

That doesn't make any sense. If I want to win game 7 of the world series right now I take Papelbon, K-Rod, (a non-injured) Putz or maybe Nathan over Rivera, who hasn't been dominating in a few years.
with decision making like that, perhaps it better explains why the angels never get out of the first round.

the only guy i'd really consider besides rivera right now is papelbon. but it's still mo for me.
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Old 04-05-2008, 10:32 AM   #149
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btw the off-white/pinkish, non-pinstriped new phillies alternate uni's with the blue hat? utterly hideous.

they can go in the "what were they thinking" box along with the mets white alt caps and the islander's gorton's fisherman uni's
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Old 04-05-2008, 04:04 PM   #150
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And those Astros popsicle unis.

There've been some seriously hideous hockey unis, I actually liked the fisherman sweaters
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