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Old 10-26-2007, 08:33 PM   #181
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Quote:
Originally posted by LarryMullen's_POPAngel
So?

And, I'm sorry, but comparing AHL/NHL is like comparing apples and oranges.
The Wolves have the BEST start in their AHL franchise history. How many other teams currently have that title on them ??

OK, you want my point ?? Here it is !!

You know, it's absolutely amazing. The Wolves lost 3 of their players to the NHL this season. But, it seems those Atlanta Thrashers are STILL on a major losing streak ... even with those new Wolves additions. There was even 2 more Wolves called up to the Thrashers because of injuries. So, there's 5 Wolves players on the Thrashers team now ... (2 are still on the AHL Wolves for this season, and 3 are with the NHL Thrashers) ... and the Thrashers team is STILL not 'cutting the mustard' ... but yet, The Wolves are doing an incredible job without any of those players. Why ?? Is it a complete imbalance on the Thrashers team ?? OR Is it that some have no business being in the NHL yet ??

Bottom line is ... the NHL is a superior club over the AHL minors. But when you have an AHL team with a perfect starting record, and far more incredible stats presently than ANY of the NHL teams, you begin to wonder where the actual superiority belongs !!

And of course, the Wolves' record will NOT stay perfect until the end of the season. But, I think they're proving at the moment that pretty much it will be damn close.
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Old 10-26-2007, 10:39 PM   #182
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Quote:
Originally posted by MsMofoGone


The Wolves have the BEST start in their AHL franchise history. How many other teams currently have that title on them ??

Bottom line is ... the NHL is a superior club over the AHL minors. But when you have an AHL team with a perfect starting record, and far more incredible stats presently than ANY of the NHL teams, you begin to wonder where the actual superiority belongs !!

Wow.

Again, it's apples and oranges. The Thrashers aren't 'cutting the mustard' this season against NHL competition, which is far, far, far superior than anything the Wolves will encounter this season. And this would be the case with or without those three Wolves players.

The Wolves are winning against AHL competition. You just simply cannot compare. I'm willing to bet that had the Wolves started the season in the NHL they wouldn't be 5-0. The Senators, Red Wings, Wild etc. would eat them alive.

One important point: The Thrashers are currently embroiled in a messy ownership dispute that does not allow them to sign players to long-term contracts. Also, they mortgaged a huge chuck of their future last season for Keith Tkachuk and al, basically rent-a-players. Those are only two of a number of reasons as to why the Thrashers are off to a slow start.

The Hamilton Bulldogs, the Canadiens affiliate, won the Calder Cup last season. No matter how many good young players they have on their team—and there's a few—I would never, ever compare them to a big-league club.

That's just silly.
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Old 10-27-2007, 12:00 AM   #183
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The Northwest Division looks like it might the be a real good race this year. Wish I got more of those games....
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Old 10-27-2007, 12:45 AM   #184
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Originally posted by BonoManiac
The Wolves are winning against AHL competition. You just simply cannot compare.
You wanna bet ?? There are several players who played against The Wolves last season in the AHL, and this season, they are playing in the NHL because they tried-out in training camp and they made someone's team. (That was my point with some of the Wolves making the NHL Thrashers this season) So, how can that NOT be compared ?? (AHL players turn into NHL players after 3 months and there's a difference ?? ... What difference ?? )

Just look at Darren Haydar ... he's a Wolves player and he's currently been called onto the Thrashers team, because of an injury. He's playing in the NHL and has scored goals for the Thrashers and he's an AHL player. So, according to your 'don't compare' scenario ... that should NOT be possible for an AHL player to accomplish in the NHL !! Now, who is being silly ??

Quote:
Originally posted by BonoManiac
I'm willing to bet that had the Wolves started the season in the NHL they wouldn't be 5-0. The Senators, Red Wings, Wild etc. would eat them alive.
Truth is, that's opinion ... not fact. It's too bad The Wolves are not in the NHL, I would have really liked to witness that, to see whose opinion is the correct one.

Quote:
Originally posted by BonoManiac
One important point: The Thrashers are currently embroiled in a messy ownership dispute that does not allow them to sign players to long-term contracts. Also, they mortgaged a huge chuck of their future last season for Keith Tkachuk and al, basically rent-a-players. Those are only two of a number of reasons as to why the Thrashers are off to a slow start.
Actually, some think the Thrashers problems arose because of former coach, Bob Hartley. Supposedly, they have taken care of that issue. Now, they have the GM Don Waddell acting as coach. (Note that I said 'acting' ... he's no help to the team, either)


Quote:
Originally posted by BonoManiac
The Hamilton Bulldogs, the Canadiens affiliate, won the Calder Cup last season.
Yeah, the Wolves DID experience difficulties against Hamilton last season, and therefore, didn't advance to the championship finals. It will be very interesting to see what happens THIS season when these 2 teams play each other.

BTW ... The record is now 6-0 for The Wolves
They pulverized the San Antonio Rampage, which finished their 2 game road trip in Chicago !!
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Old 10-27-2007, 01:00 AM   #185
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It was nice to see the Canucks win tonight. They're definitely experiencing the early season slump they did last season, so hopefully that will change soon.

The game against Washington was great to watch. Ovechkin is a phenomenal player, but I'm glad Vancouver was able to win.
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Old 10-27-2007, 09:49 AM   #186
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Quote:
Originally posted by MsMofoGone
[B]
You wanna bet ?? There are several players who played against The Wolves last season in the AHL, and this season, they are playing in the NHL because they tried-out in training camp and they made someone's team. (That was my point with some of the Wolves making the NHL Thrashers this season) So, how can that NOT be compared ?? (AHL players turn into NHL players after 3 months and there's a difference ?? ... What difference ?? )
You've taken several of my points out of context and twisted them around.

So, first, did I ever say that AHL players are incapable of playing, and playing well, in the NHL? No. My point is that you simply cannot compare the Wolves' now 6-0 record because they play in the AHL and by any objective standards the AHL does not have the best players in the world, the NHL does.

Anyway you slice it it's a developmental league, a feeder system for the NHL. By it's very nature the AHL has some excellent players who are preparing to make the jump to the NHL. But they also have young prospects who will never make it to the NHL and career minor leaguers who weren't able to crack an NHL line-up.

The same hold true for, say, minor league baseball versus the major leagues.


Quote:
Just look at Darren Haydar ... he's a Wolves player and he's currently been called onto the Thrashers team, because of an injury. He's playing in the NHL and has scored goals for the Thrashers and he's an AHL player. So, according to your 'don't compare' scenario ... that should NOT be possible for an AHL player to accomplish in the NHL !! Now, who is being silly ??
Again, you're taking my point out of context. I wasn't comparing AHL players on an individual basis. There are many, many good ones, but the best TEAMS are in the NHL.

But when you say things such as this : "But when you have an AHL team with a perfect starting record, and far more incredible stats presently than ANY of the NHL teams, you begin to wonder where the actual superiority belongs !!"

I don't think you're looking at things objectively. The Wolves have a perfect record in the AHL. They have "far more incredible stats" in the AHL. They're not facing AS A WHOLE the best competition possible because the best teams (not just best individual players, but best TEAMS) are in the NHL.



Quote:
Actually, some think the Thrashers problems arose because of former coach, Bob Hartley. Supposedly, they have taken care of that issue. Now, they have the GM Don Waddell acting as coach. (Note that I said 'acting' ... he's no help to the team, either)
See my previous post of the reasons I specified being "two of a number of reasons" Yes, Hartley was a major factor i their slow start. And I alluded to Wadell being of no help to the team when I said that he traded a huge chunck of their future at the trading deadline. But the fact that they're not able to sign anyone to a long-term contract did not allow them to be players in the free-agent market and off-set some of the damage done by trading for Tkachuk and compnay.


Quote:
Yeah, the Wolves DID experience difficulties against Hamilton last season, and therefore, didn't advance to the championship finals. It will be very interesting to see what happens THIS season when these 2 teams play each other.

This was my previous post in full and nowhere did I say mention the Wolves.

Quote:
The Hamilton Bulldogs, the Canadiens affiliate, won the Calder Cup last season. No matter how many good young players they have on their team—and there's a few—I would never, ever compare them to a big-league club.
My point was that the Bulldogs, the affiliate of my favourite team, the Montreal Canadiens, have several good young players—Jaroslav Halak, Ryan O'Byrne, Serge Kostitsyn, to name a few—and they won the Calder Cup last year. Does this mean they would have won the Stanley Cup using your logic? I don't think they would be able to beat the Ducks, Senators, Red Wings etc.

Maybe the Leafs, but that goes without saying.
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Old 10-27-2007, 12:39 PM   #187
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I was all set to come in here with an answer to the ridiculous statements made by msmofo, but I see BonoManiac has already expressed everything I was going to say much more eloquently.
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Old 10-27-2007, 10:24 PM   #188
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The 2007-08 NHL Hockey thread
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Old 10-27-2007, 10:35 PM   #189
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When is Toronto going to trade Sundin?
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Old 10-28-2007, 05:16 AM   #190
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Quote:
Originally posted by BonoManiac
So, first, did I ever say that AHL players are incapable of playing, and playing well, in the NHL? No.
Oh really ?? See your former post below.
Quote:
Originally posted by BonoManiac
I'm willing to bet that had the Wolves started the season in the NHL they wouldn't be 5-0. The Senators, Red Wings, Wild etc. would eat them alive.
The Wolves ARE AHL players (every single one of them on their team). And something about "eating them alive" makes me think you feel they're incapable of playing well in the NHL (or against NHL teams)
Quote:
Originally posted by BonoManiac
and by any objective standards the AHL does not have the best players in the world, the NHL does.
And what happens when those BEST players are NOT renewed as NHL players ?? They simply cannot become BEST players for the AHL ??
Quote:
Originally posted by BonoManiac
Anyway you slice it it's a developmental league, a feeder system for the NHL. By it's very nature the AHL has some excellent players who are preparing to make the jump to the NHL. But they also have young prospects who will never make it to the NHL and career minor leaguers who weren't able to crack an NHL line-up.
And by that same token ... there's players who are in the NHL one minute, and sent back down to the minors, the next. Some also are not tendered a contract for the next season, and wind up trying to find support with another team.
Quote:
Originally posted by BonoManiac
Again, you're taking my point out of context. I wasn't comparing AHL players on an individual basis. There are many, many good ones, but the best TEAMS are in the NHL.
So, what happens when AHL players are 'called up' and play within an NHL team ... is that when those players are considered making them the BEST, simply because they're playing as PART of an NHL TEAM ?? ( You yourself said the BEST TEAMS are in the NHL.) What if they remained in the AHL and weren't on an NHL TEAM ... they are supposedly nothing ?? Please. The AHL has teams that are considered the BEST, just like the NHL does. Now, who's taking things out of context ??
Quote:
Originally posted by BonoManiac
But when you say things such as this : "But when you have an AHL team with a perfect starting record, and far more incredible stats presently than ANY of the NHL teams, you begin to wonder where the actual superiority belongs !!"
I don't think you're looking at things objectively. The Wolves have a perfect record in the AHL. They have "far more incredible stats" in the AHL. They're not facing AS A WHOLE the best competition possible because the best teams (not just best individual players, but best TEAMS) are in the NHL.
And what exactly makes up those best teams ?? The answer is: best individual players !!
So, what are you trying to identify with by saying ...
Quote:
Originally posted by BonoManiac
(not just best individual players, but best TEAMS)

Quote:
Originally posted by BonoManiac
My point was that the Bulldogs, the affiliate of my favourite team, the Montreal Canadiens, have several good young players—Jaroslav Halak, Ryan O'Byrne, Serge Kostitsyn, to name a few—and they won the Calder Cup last year. Does this mean they would have won the Stanley Cup using your logic? I don't think they would be able to beat the Ducks, Senators, Red Wings etc.

Maybe the Leafs, but that goes without saying.
Again, it's all speculation. You can never predict what would happen unless they would indeed play those teams you mentioned. So, until there's an All-Star Game where minor leagues CAN play against the big clubs, (AHL teams VS. NHL teams) I doubt we will ever learn the TRUE answer to that scenario.
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Old 10-28-2007, 05:29 AM   #191
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Quote:
Originally posted by LarryMullen's_POPAngel
I was all set to come in here with an answer to the ridiculous statements made by msmofo,
Just because you DON'T AGREE with my statements, does NOT mean they're ridiculous.
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Old 10-28-2007, 07:54 AM   #192
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msmofogone, you can't be serious.

you don't actually think that the wolves would be good in the nhl, do you?

THEY'RE MADE UP OF PLAYERS WHO AREN'T GOOD ENOUGH TO PLAY IN THE NHL.

that's great you support your ahl club, but come on. you can ask the players and the staff of the wolves, and even they'd disagree with you.
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Old 10-28-2007, 08:42 AM   #193
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I bet I've seen easily over 100 games in the NHL and in the A. I've seen some lousy, lousy NHL teams (I had Whalers season tix), and I think a good AHL team could beat a bad NHL club. It would be an upset...not a huge one, but an upset. If they played 10 times I could see the good AHL club winning 2 or 3, especially if the strength of the AHL club was its goaltender.

The biggest difference between the leagues, for me, is that in the A a player can have a weakness & still be dominant. In the AHL a small faster guy like a Marc Savard, or a Danny Briere, can be absolutely dominant. They were, I saw it. Those guys had enough quickness and agility to beat the big guys in the AHL, because in the AHL a big guy rarely has decent wheels (if he was big & fast he'd be up already). The principle holds on defense too. A guy like Brent Thompson could be a physical force in the AHL, but in the NHL he was a 6th/7th defenseman at best, because NHLers were either big enough or fast enough to beat him.

The AHL is a nice league. It was a better league before the AHL/IHL merger IMO, because it had mostly good young players while the IHL tended to have more older veterans who couldn't quite cut it in the NHL, guys who'd had their shot already. But if you see both leagues live you can clearly see the difference in quality.
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Old 10-28-2007, 10:23 AM   #194
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MsMofo, I respectfully disagree with your sentiment and it's obvious that neither of us will ever convince each other.

But let me just say this: I have seen AHL games before and can attest to the quality that the league has. However, not even you can deny that the best players in the world are in the NHL.

I'm a journalist. Recently I was in a scrum around Habs rookie Kyle Chipchura who spent a year in the AHL last season. Someone asked him what the biggest difference between the AHL and NHL is. His answer? The speed; everything happens faster in the NHL because the players are a level better. As a collective unit the AHL is a level lower than the NHL. I mean, again, the AHL is the NHL's feeder and developmental league. It's not a direct competitor with the NHL like the old WHA. In that case arguments could me made.

There are many NHL players in the AHL that deserve to be in the NHL. That being said, you cannot say that the Wolves have better stats than any team in the NHL because they got their stats in the AHL. The AHL is not the NHL. If it was, all the best players would be flocking to play there. Trust me, even you can agree with this: Facing a Martin Brodeur is a much more daunting task than your average AHL goalie. (Again, this is not to say that there are no NHL goalies in the AHL. Hamilton has Halak who played exceptionally well in the NHL last season.)

Anyway, this debate has gone on long enough. You have your opinions and I have mine (and apparently I'm not alone).
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Old 10-29-2007, 04:34 PM   #195
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Quote:
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When is Toronto going to trade Sundin?
Why would they? To trade him while he's hot so they can get some young blood?

The Leafs will have no chance at making the playoffs if they trade Sundin - it's a bit early in the season to be making drastic changes like this imo. The season's not a write-off just yet, esp. after their last couple games.
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