Star Wars storyline and plot discussion on new and old trilogy conflicts

[bono_man2002]

I have to say, theses star wars threads make for good reading at 1:11AM, as somone who can't sleep

 

[nbcrusader]

Was the prophecy correct? It said that Anakin was the chosen one who would defeat the Sith and bring balance to the force. But he turned to the dark side and joined the Sith, so how could this be? Wasn't it really Luke who was the chosen one? But hold on- who killed Palpatine? Vader! (Anakin) So maybe, from a certain point of view it was correct after all!

The specific prophecy is never revealed, only a brief summary (which Yoda suggests may have been misinterpreted).

 

[U2Kitten]

The specific prophecy is never revealed, only a brief summary (which Yoda suggests may have been misinterpreted).

But did Anakin not:

defeat the Sith
bring balance to the force
save the universe (and die?)

So he was the chosen one! Or do you think it was Luke?

 

[U2Kitten]

That is a good one also U2 kitten. I didn't even think about that one. Now that I am, I think you might be right that Anakin was the chosen on after all. It would just take several years for it to come true.

Thanks!

One thing is for sure is that I'm enjoying reading everyone's different take on this saga.

Me too!

 

[knox]

Was this the plan of Yoda and Obi Wan, to get Luke to face him and turn him back so he could defeat Palpatine, because they knew it was he who must? Is this why they originally didn't want Luke to know it was his father because then he wouldn't want to face him? Did they want him to do this, or kill Vader? What do you think?

I think that Kenobi and Yoda basically have given up on Anakin/Vader, and it's Luke who brings them back. It's abundantly clear that the "old Jedi" have no clue how to handle Anakain, anyway *cough Mace Windu cough*, so it's not surprising that at least Yoda still doesn't have hope in him. Kenobi's lack of hope makes more sense (which it never had before I say Episode III), because of the way Vader acted before, during and after their duel.

 

[AvsGirl41]

[*]How in the world does Palpatine's lighting so terribly disfigure himself in Revenge Of The Sith, while Luke walks away unscathed in Return Of The Jedi?

Because Palpatine is summoning/using the Force lightning. Yoda wasn't disfigured either. Neither was Mace Windu or Darth Vader (when he gets zapped in Jedi). Anthony is right, it's having to control that power that disfigures the Emperor.

I do wonder why Force lightning doesn't leave any scars on the person being fried, but maybe it works from the inside out.

 

[U2MaNaIcWeIdO]

Because Palpatine is summoning/using the Force lightning. Yoda wasn't disfigured either. Neither was Mace Windu or Darth Vader (when he gets zapped in Jedi). Anthony is right, it's having to control that power that disfigures the Emperor.

I do wonder why Force lightning doesn't leave any scars on the person being fried, but maybe it works from the inside out.

Yea.....but you got to remember that Vadar is metal/human hybrid.....so that may be part of the reason why he didn't looked fried in Jedi.


I dunno about Luke or Windu....you may be right on that part.

 

[Anthony]

Anthony is right, it's having to control that power that disfigures the Emperor.

You know, what I found distinctly disturbing (and cool, in a sick kind of way), was that I don't think the Emperor even wants to control the power, he wants to immerse in it with abandon even if it means disfiguring himself in the process 'POWER! UNLIMITED POWER!'). He hardly looks in pain, he looks like he's exhausted from the rush of it all, in that scene.

U2Kitten you raise a really cool point; I've always believed that Anakin was the chosen one. I remember someone crying out at the end of Phantom Menace 'so it was all Qui-Gon's fault!', in reference to his insistance of training Anakin. Well, yes and no. In the end, he was right - he 'did' bring balance to the force, just not in the way the Jedi thought (this is where the misinterpretation of the prophecy could be related to). I don't think that the series is insipid enough to say that it was 'Luke' (whom I've always hated, by the way) who brought balance to the force 'through his love for his father'. My, how insanely cheese would 'that' be.

No, it was Anakin. He was the Chosen one. However, I think Yoda and Obi-Wan's plan was less nuanced than that - they clearly believed that Vader could never be turned and wanted Luke to kill both the Emperor and Vader (rather ambitious, I thought). Incidentally, thats also why Obi-Wan didn't tell Luke who his father was, so he would have less angst when it came to killing daddy (quite cynical for Mr. Kenobi, but he was always the bitter realist).

Ant.

 

[Anthony]

But if he had the power to create babies with the force, why wouldn't he have done that over and over and had many many powerful, force-filled children he could manipulate to the dark side? Wouldn't that have been better than making all those clones of Bobba Fett's Dad?

Hrm... I think its important to remember why there are only ever two Sith lords. The Sith Rule of Two exists because the blood-stained history of the Sith reveals how the Sith have a propensity to self-destruct, as in, they stab each other in the back. Even now, its the common practice; it shouldn't have come as a surprise to Darth Plagueis when Darth Sidious killed him, had it not been for the fact he was asleep. So, had the Emperor had loads of unstable, power-hungry Vaders running around, he would have been in trouble.


Ant.

 

[trojanchick99]

Late to the discussion. Regarding Padme... I think that Lucas may have changed his mind on this. I read where Lucas had shot a storyline where Padme formed the Rebel Alliance. This was cut from the film. After seeing the end, I think he changed the death of Padme for reasons of shortening the film.

 

[nbcrusader]

Late to the discussion. Regarding Padme... I think that Lucas may have changed his mind on this. I read where Lucas had shot a storyline where Padme formed the Rebel Alliance. This was cut from the film. After seeing the end, I think he changed the death of Padme for reasons of shortening the film.

Correct. Mon Mothma and the other Rebel Alliance leaders meet to discuss the Palpatine's formation of the Empire. The DVD will have a number of excellent cut scenes.

I bet in 5-10 years we will get a new version of the Star Wars saga with more additions and revisions.

 

[U2Kitten]

Late to the discussion. Regarding Padme... I think that Lucas may have changed his mind on this. I read where Lucas had shot a storyline where Padme formed the Rebel Alliance. This was cut from the film. After seeing the end, I think he changed the death of Padme for reasons of shortening the film.

That would have been interesting, but very complicated. So she'd have had Leia with her, but ditched her little Luke? I don't think she'd do that. Then you'd have all the conflicts of Vader knowing she was against him, it could get very nasty. They'd have had to find a way to kill her character anyway, eventually, since she does die. It would have taken too long. This way all we have to deal with is what Leia said in Jedi. Either way what happened to Padme' was very sad.

 

[U2Kitten]

U2Kitten you raise a really cool point; I've always believed that Anakin was the chosen one. I remember someone crying out at the end of Phantom Menace 'so it was all Qui-Gon's fault!', in reference to his insistance of training Anakin. Well, yes and no. In the end, he was right - he 'did' bring balance to the force, just not in the way the Jedi thought (this is where the misinterpretation of the prophecy could be related to). I don't think that the series is insipid enough to say that it was 'Luke' (whom I've always hated, by the way) who brought balance to the force 'through his love for his father'. My, how insanely cheese would 'that' be.

I was also thinking, to bring 'balance' to the force, wouldn't a person have had to have been on both sides of it?

No, it was Anakin. He was the Chosen one. However, I think Yoda and Obi-Wan's plan was less nuanced than that - they clearly believed that Vader could never be turned and wanted Luke to kill both the Emperor and Vader (rather ambitious, I thought). Incidentally, thats also why Obi-Wan didn't tell Luke who his father was, so he would have less angst when it came to killing daddy (quite cynical for Mr. Kenobi, but he was always the bitter realist).

Ant.

So they did want him to kill him! I was hoping, maybe they thought Luke could turn him back. In the end I'm glad that's what happened, even though he did kill him anyway.

But what about the emperor? What were Obi Wan and Yoda's plans for him? Did they mean for Luke to kill him too?

 

[nbcrusader]

That would have been interesting, but very complicated. So she'd have had Leia with her, but ditched her little Luke? I don't think she'd do that. Then you'd have all the conflicts of Vader knowing she was against him, it could get very nasty. They'd have had to find a way to kill her character anyway, eventually, since she does die. It would have taken too long. This way all we have to deal with is what Leia said in Jedi. Either way what happened to Padme' was very sad.

No, the beginning of the rebel alliance starts around the same time Padme questions "whether we are on the right side". As Palpatine grows in power and the Senate vote to grant even further power, a group of Senators, including Bail Organa and Mon Motha, discuss their options. At one point they even question whether Padme should be part of this new Alliance due to her close relationship to Palpatine.

 

[phanan]

Now there's a character I thought we'd see more of - Mon Mothma. She certainly plays a crucial part along with Bail Organa. Perhaps the DVD will include some missing scenes with her.

 

[trojanchick99]

No, the beginning of the rebel alliance starts around the same time Padme questions "whether we are on the right side". As Palpatine grows in power and the Senate vote to grant even further power, a group of Senators, including Bail Organa and Mon Motha, discuss their options. At one point they even question whether Padme should be part of this new Alliance due to her close relationship to Palpatine.

So that screws up my theory. Oh well. I still can't wait to see that, cause my one complaint with ROTS is Padme... she was great in the first two movies, but just seemed pathetic in ROTS.

 

[skjuls]

Now there's a character I thought we'd see more of - Mon Mothma. She certainly plays a crucial part along with Bail Organa. Perhaps the DVD will include some missing scenes with her.

Yes, in the book there were meeting with Mon Mothma and Organa at Padme's place asking for her thoughts and support.

Also in the book, Organa tells Yoda and Obi-Wan for now he will act like he is going along with the Empire but secretly will be against it.

 

[mdw3935]

I my opinion Padme's character was not strong at all in ROTS. I hated the fact that she died because she lost the will to live, especially after she had just given birth. I'm sorry but any mom will disagree with that. I would have accepted her death better if it was Anakin that actually killed her, since he did choke her. You know some side effect from the strangle hold he had on her, not the medical speaking she is healthy, she has just lost the will to live.

I don't know, maybe it is just me.

 

[AvsGirl41]

I my opinion Padme's character was not strong at all in ROTS. I hated the fact that she died because she lost the will to live, especially after she had just given birth. I'm sorry but any mom will disagree with that. I would have accepted her death better if it was Anakin that actually killed her, since he did choke her. You know some side effect from the strangle hold he had on her, not the medical speaking she is healthy, she has just lost the will to live.

I don't know, maybe it is just me.

It wasn't just you, my sister and I said the same thing. She had 2 children to protect--and still believed Anakin had good in him, so why would she just give up? Lucas obviously did not want to go "too dark" by having Anakin responsible which was a real cop-out.

I'm rather glad she didn't die as a *result* of childbirth though, that didn't seem plausible in a world of robotic prosthetics, droids and hyperspace.

 

[AvsGirl41]

That would have been interesting, but very complicated. So she'd have had Leia with her, but ditched her little Luke? I don't think she'd do that. Then you'd have all the conflicts of Vader knowing she was against him, it could get very nasty. They'd have had to find a way to kill her character anyway, eventually, since she does die. It would have taken too long. This way all we have to deal with is what Leia said in Jedi. Either way what happened to Padme' was very sad.

That's just how I always pictured it though--darn Lucas.

I think it makes sense that she would have kept Leia with her. They probably would have assumed Luke, as the son, had more potential with the Force and therefore needed to be kept a secret. Or maybe Darth Vader would just have no use for a daughter, even one strong in the Force. (Though he seems to think she'd be useful in Jedi.)

It could have worked. I think it would have been a really awesome ending if we'd seen Padme willingly give up her children for their protection and the last we see of her is either with the Rebel Alliance, or leaving to find Anakin to try and turn him again. Then we could have just assumed she died in fighting, but that she lived long enough for Leia to remember her. It would have been more in line with her gun-wielding politician. (And keep the tear-jerking scenes of Alderaan and Tatooine.) Presto! See, George, it's not hard!

 

[yimou]

I know it really dosn´t matter at all, but still i thought it was a little bit weird that Padme had that tiny little stomach but still gave birth to two normal sized babies. Maybe kids grow instantly in space Anyway, it just looked a bit odd.

 

[trojanchick99]

It could have worked. I think it would have been a really awesome ending if we'd seen Padme willingly give up her children for their protection and the last we see of her is either with the Rebel Alliance, or leaving to find Anakin to try and turn him again. Then we could have just assumed she died in fighting, but that she lived long enough for Leia to remember her. It would have been more in line with her gun-wielding politician. (And keep the tear-jerking scenes of Alderaan and Tatooine.) Presto! See, George, it's not hard!

I think the problem, is we need to to see Padme die. There needed to be that closure. Also, if Anakin knew Padme had lived, he would have known about the kids which would really poke some holes in the original trilogy...

 

[Anthony]

Hrm, I disagree - I don't think we do need to see Padme die. That was my one disappointment with 'Sith'. The fact that Leia's recollection makes it very hard for even the die-hard fans to defend the plot error (not to mention Lucas continued to shoot himself in the foot by having her hold Luke but not Leia... right); I would have had the twins split up (for security's sake, it would have been less risky in the event of Vader finding Leia) and then had her, frail and heart-broken, go to Alderaan under Organa's protection, only for her to die in between the episodes.

I thought that would have been more powerful and also, would have made the Emperor even meaner by lying to Vader, who around this time is relatively weak (what with the whole burning and losing half his body in limbs thing) and can't really find out for himself. Then, Padme would die of a broken heart (which is what she dies of anyway in the film, so I'm not being 'that' cheesy), Lucas could've given us a scene that would have indicated that she wasn't going to last long - that would have been more powerful, not to mention nuanced.

And for the record, I don't think Padme was pathetic in this movie. She ruled, as always.

Ant.

 

[nbcrusader]

The parallel of both Padme and Anakin "dying" was very dramatic. I thought it worked.

If only Leia was the one held by Padme in her last moments....

 

[Anthony]

The parallel of both Padme and Anakin "dying" was very dramatic. I thought it worked.

I agree. Seeing that he did actually opt for the killing off Padme thing, he did do it very well, and it was very effective. And you're right, if only it had been Leia. I mean, what did it cost him? I'm not one of those who believe that Lucas has no concept of what he wrote years ago; I refuse to believe that. I just find it very hard to understand why he didn't have Padme hold Leia? We'll never know, I guess....


Ant.

 

[AvsGirl41]

Well, on a total fluke I was looking at the "Return of the Jedi" storybook--I think it's the same one I had in 1984! Memories...

Kids were smarter in 1984, there's actually big words and real dialogue from the movie.

Anyway, in the book Leia says "My real mother died when I was very young..." So that clears up what mother she's talking about.

But I never thought very young meant infancy.

 

[U2Kitten]

Yeah, that was 'very young' I always assumed she lived a few years too, but I guess that was too complicating once we had her and Anakin as developed characters. Maybe Lucas will edit it out one day.

I saw on another board that he did change what the emperor says on the new DVD, what does he say? I have it on layaway, and my DVD player is broken. I hope to see it someday, but for now, any quotes from those who have it?

Here's a question about Empire-Jedi: remember when Han was being frozen in carbonite, he and Leia confessed their love, but he was very angry with Lando for setting him up. Leia, Luke and Chewy and the droids of course saw Lando get shafted too and become a valued ally over the next 2 years. But Han was frozen and didn't know any of this, he only remembered his anger at Lando. So why, in Jedi, was he risking his life, blind and upside down over the sarlac pit, to save Lando's life? You think he'd have been pissed and glad for him to fall! Unless maybe Chewy told him everything when they were in the cell together?

 

[nbcrusader]

Well, on a total fluke I was looking at the "Return of the Jedi" storybook--I think it's the same one I had in 1984! Memories...

Kids were smarter in 1984, there's actually big words and real dialogue from the movie.

Anyway, in the book Leia says "My real mother died when I was very young..." So that clears up what mother she's talking about.

But I never thought very young meant infancy.

Interesting side point - I've seen arguments as to what constitutes Star Wars canon. Some think only the movies count. Others add in books of the movies. Still others count anything with Star Wars in the title.

This came up when one of the books had Boba Fett surviving the Sarlac.

 

[melon]

I think books don't count in the official canon, but we get these kind of arguments from "Doctor Who" fans too. Generally speaking, TV/film writers usually exclude books from the official canon, because it's too difficult to keep everything together, and they probably haven't even read the books themselves.

Melon

 

[phanan]

I think books don't count in the official canon, but we get these kind of arguments from "Doctor Who" fans too. Generally speaking, TV/film writers usually exclude books from the official canon, because it's too difficult to keep everything together, and they probably haven't even read the books themselves.

Melon

This is true, but Lucasfilm approves every Star Wars book that gets published, so he is obviously giving his blessing. It's termed expanded universe, but it's part of that universe nonetheless.