Star Wars Ep. 4,5,6, Vs The Lord of the Rings Trilogy

[God Part III]

All films are basically adaptions in the sense that one is putting a vision that is confined to words and illustrations to film. It is what you do with it that determines how good the movie is. LOTR was just words on a page, basically colorless and mute. What Peter Jackson did was turn those words into a world that you could live in and touch. Middle Earth has a feel like no other place in film history.

I wholeheartedly disagree.

Films are indeed visions, not words, and Star Wars was never literature. It was a film, from the very beginning, as for so many other works of cinema. A script describes the pictures that had gone before it, not the other way round.

And yes, the LOTR movies are unique in that they are the only movies about LOTR, but there are so many films that have done this before with other universes and other stories.

LOTR is copy-paste filmmaking, and no cinematic achievement whatsoever, except for art direction.

 

[elevated_u2_fan]

Well, if there is a flaw in my logic there is in yours as well - as you say, the characters and story of Star Wars is that of mythical archetypes. The LOTR books really doesn't mean anything for Star Wars, the greatest influence is probably Flash Gordon, along with Kurosawa probably.

Lucas has said as much, so you are correct and while I do not have any kind of proof, I strongly suspect that he has read LOTR and was influenced by the story and characters, the level of influence is debatable but I'm willing to bet that LOTR is in some way an influence.

Honestly, I prefer Star Wars and while I really liked LOTR, I do not think it's the second coming as some fans would have you believe. In terms of movies, SW is clearly the predecessor and LOTR pretty much owes its existence to it.

When it comes to the story though (which I do believe plays a strong role in movies, whether it be a script or a book), I still think SW owes quite a bit to LOTR, I'm probably completely wrong but I like to stir the pot once and while...

And what I mean by Star Wars leading the way for LOTR is not just CG, it's risk. Epic moviemaking had been dead since the early 60's, and those were historical films. Nobody had ever put such a huge budget in fantasy filmmaking. Star Wars is probably the most influential film in American filmmaking since Citizen Kane or some of Hitchcock's films.

I agree totally with what you are saying here, Star Wars changed they way movies are made, period.

 

[God Part III]

I do see your point.

We probably agree about most things anyway.

Star Wars isn't my favourite movie or anything, I prefer European cinema, and if it had to be American I'd answer Scorsese or Kubrick (who, btw, had a huge influence on Star Wars in making 2001). I just hate the LOTR films, though I enjoyed the books.

 

[Screwtape2]

I wholeheartedly disagree.

Films are indeed visions, not words, and Star Wars was never literature. It was a film, from the very beginning, as for so many other works of cinema. A script describes the pictures that had gone before it, not the other way round.

You have missed my point entirely. The process of filmaking is taking these images and words in one's head, putting them to paper then adapting them to film. Star Wars was confined to paper and illustrations before it ever made it to film. No movie is a film in the beginning, obviously a script pre-dates the film.

And yes, the LOTR movies are unique in that they are the only movies about LOTR, but there are so many films that have done this before with other universes and other stories.

LOTR is copy-paste filmmaking, and no cinematic achievement whatsoever, except for art direction.

1. Peter Jackson's LOTR is not the only movie version of the books.
2. Anyone who understands film can clearly see that LOTR is a unique in its feel.
3. There is no such thing as copy-paste filmmaking. Anyone who would say that about LOTR clearly has no understanding of film. I'm sorry but your points make no sense.

 

[elevated_u2_fan]

Kubrick (who, btw, had a huge influence on Star Wars in making 2001).

I 2001! Definitely one of my all time favorite movies...

 

[God Part III]

You have missed my point entirely. The process of filmaking is taking these images and words in one's head, putting them to paper then adapting them to film. Star Wars was confined to paper and illustrations before it ever made it to film. No movie is a film in the beginning, obviously a script pre-dates the film.



1. Peter Jackson's LOTR is not the only movie version of the books.
2. Anyone who understands film can clearly see that LOTR is a unique in its feel.
3. There is no such thing as copy-paste filmmaking. Anyone who would say that about LOTR clearly has no understanding of film. I'm sorry but your points make no sense.

Firstly, many many people work without scripts. Scripts are overviews, you can't tell if the movie is good from a script. Fellini, one of the greatest auteurs in cinema history, worked without scripts. The process of filmmaking is having a vision, and making that into film. The script is a biproduct that helps the production, but in a sense, irrelevant, if the film is truly auteured.

And to answer your points:

1. I wasn't aware of this. I know there's a cartoon, but I guess you're referring to cinema.
2. I beg to differ. I have seen more than a 800 movies, I know film history inside-out, I know film is what I mean. I assure you, the only thing unique about LOTR is that it's a filmed version of Tolkien's classic. The dialogue is bland, the editing is mediocre, the cinematography is unoriginal, and above all, the script is flawed.
Saying LOTR is unique is the same thing as saying that every film is unique, which is, in a way, true, but also pointless.
3. What I mean by copy-paste filmmaking is that Peter Jackson copies cinematic techniques invented by other people and pastes them onto his production. I have no problem with anyone liking the films, but calling them original, or unique, is offensive to me.

 

[God Part III]

I 2001! Definitely one of my all time favorite movies...

To go totally off-topic, what are they, just out of interest?

(Some of) mine are:

1. Le mépris (1963)
2. Barry Lyndon (1975)
3. Eternal Sunshine of the Spotless Mind (2003)
4. Raging Bull (1980)
5. 2046 (2004)
6. Bin-jip (2004)
7. I don't Want to Sleep Alone (2006)
8. Clockwork Orange, A (1971)
9. Kill Bill: Vol. 2 (2004)
10. Spring, Summer, Autumn, Winter... and Spring (2003)

Favourite filmmakers being Godard, Fellini, Leone, Scorsese, Wong Kar Wai, Kim Ki-Duk, Lynch, and of course, Kubrick.

Let's make this "the cinema thread"

 

[Screwtape2]

3. What I mean by copy-paste filmmaking is that Peter Jackson copies cinematic techniques invented by other people and pastes them onto his production. I have no problem with anyone liking the films, but calling them original, or unique, is offensive to me.

Most of this stuff we could go 'round in circles over so I guess I have just two questions.
1. How is it that you can like Kill Bill when the film is made up of things taken from other films but claim to say that LOTR isn't original or unique? And so on with Leone films (stereotypical western plots) and 2001 (a film made from a short story)?
2. What specific techniques do you think Peter Jackson copied?

 

[elevated_u2_fan]

To go totally off-topic, what are they, just out of interest?

I have too many to just pick 10, off the top of my head (in no particular order):

-2001
-Unbreakable
-Seven
-The Usual Suspects
-The Shining
-Raging Bull
-Seven Samurai
-Leon, The Professional
-Blade Runner
-Akira
-The Insider
-12 Monkeys
-Vertigo

And for something completely different :

-The Royal Tenebaums
-Dogma
-The Life Of Brian
-Airplane/Airplane II (can’t decide which is better)

In terms of directors; Fincher, Kubric, Scott, Mann, Giliam, Scorsese and Hitchcock come to mind...

 

[God Part III]

Most of this stuff we could go 'round in circles over so I guess I have just two questions.
1. How is it that you can like Kill Bill when the film is made up of things taken from other films but claim to say that LOTR isn't original or unique? And so on with Leone films (stereotypical western plots) and 2001 (a film made from a short story)?
2. What specific techniques do you think Peter Jackson copied?

Kill Bill is the concept, and of course, execution.
The concept is incredibly unique, don't tell me you've seen a film like Kill Bill before. Yes, it borrows and copies from cinema all over the world, but the overall result is a stew of pure cinema.
Leone, I don't like them for the story. I love them for storytelling - or cinema, as a more fitting word. Leone had a unique, very cinematic style that still influences today. I'd say he has influenced LOTR, but that's just me. 2001 for the same reason. The story isn't what's important about 2001. It's the feel, the camera, the editing, and the music, everything about it.
2. Well, it's not that Peter Jackson is the only one who copies around the world. I'd say everyone does at this point, some of which, though, add something new to the mix. Jackson didn't do that. Panorama camera for fighting, close ups and dimmed sounds for emphasis, the list goes on, but from the top of my head, I'd say Spielberg and Kurosawa mainly, though it's not that important. I'd say ok if the film added something new to the mix, but I just can't think of one scene in the entire trilogy that hadn't been seen before in one way or the other.
But I'm talking cinema, not story, here, as we can probably both agree that noone had seen such an epic adaptation before. But that just doesn't do it for me.

 

[Screwtape2]

Favourite filmmakers being Godard, Fellini, Leone, Scorsese, Wong Kar Wai, Kim Ki-Duk, Lynch, and of course, Kubrick.

Let's make this "the cinema thread"

On a lighter note, your choice of directors is superb. Lynch and Fellini are in a league of their own and always have a couple movies among my favorite films. Kubrick and Leone both possess the talent of stretching out films while never losing the audience.
I'm not a fan of Asian arthouse, but I do think the best movies are coming out of Korea and Japan these days. Nice list.

 

[Screwtape2]

I have too many to just pick 10, off the top of my head (in no particular order):

-2001
-Unbreakable
-Seven
-The Usual Suspects
-The Shining
-Raging Bull
-Seven Samurai
-Leon, The Professional
-Blade Runner
-Akira
-The Insider
-12 Monkeys
-Vertigo

Very nice list. It's nice to see Akira get some appreciation.

 

[God Part III]

Great list, though I really don't like The Insider. The rest is great though, especially The Usual Suspects, Vertigo and Blade Runner, all top 50 films as far as I'm concerned. Raging Bull may be the best film ever made if we're talking mere cinematic technique, if not, it's the best editing at least. Such a beast of a film.

You should watch the Korean film Old Boy, from what you've mentioned, you're bound to love it.

And I love Life of Brian. But who doesn't?

 

[God Part III]

On a lighter note, your choice of directors is superb. Lynch and Fellini are in a league of their own and always have a couple movies among my favorite films. Kubrick and Leone both possess the talent of stretching out films while never losing the audience.
I'm not a fan of Asian arthouse, but I do think the best movies are coming out of Korea and Japan these days. Nice list.

Show me yours. Usually, the most heated arguments I have about film are with people whose taste is very close to mine ;D

(and I must say, never have I been so engaged in a forum discussion about film since my glory days at IMDb, and funnily enough, both of you seem to know much more about film than 90-95% of those boards . So if I get arrogant, don't take it personal, I just hate LOTR )

 

[Screwtape2]

Kill Bill is the concept, and of course, execution.
The concept is incredibly unique, don't tell me you've seen a film like Kill Bill before. Yes, it borrows and copies from cinema all over the world, but the overall result is a stew of pure cinema.
Leone, I don't like them for the story. I love them for storytelling - or cinema, as a more fitting word. Leone had a unique, very cinematic style that still influences today. I'd say he has influenced LOTR, but that's just me. 2001 for the same reason. The story isn't what's important about 2001. It's the feel, the camera, the editing, and the music, everything about it.
I'd say ok if the film added something new to the mix, but I just can't think of one scene in the entire trilogy that hadn't been seen before in one way or the other.
But I'm talking cinema, not story, here, as we can probably both agree that noone had seen such an epic adaptation before. But that just doesn't do it for me.

I guess the way you feel about 2001 is how I feel about LOTR. I guess we'll agree to disagree.

 

[God Part III]

Yeah, I guess so.

 

[Screwtape2]

Show me yours. Usually, the most heated arguments I have about film are with people whose taste is very close to mine ;D

Well actually...

1. Twin Peaks: Fire Walk With Me
2. Return Of The King
3. Once Upon A Time In The West
4. Metropolis
5. Lawrence Of Arabia
6. 2001
7. Blue Velvet
8. Crounching Tiger, Hidden Tiger
9. Eraserhead
10. Elephant Man

Fellini's Casanova and Clockwork Orange are in somewhere in my Top 20.

 

[God Part III]

Well actually...

1. Twin Peaks: Fire Walk With Me
2. Return Of The King
3. Once Upon A Time In The West
4. Metropolis
5. Lawrence Of Arabia
6. 2001
7. Blue Velvet
8. Crounching Tiger, Hidden Tiger
9. Eraserhead
10. Elephant Man

Fellini's Casanova and Clockwork Orange are in somewhere in my Top 20.

Such amazing movies. I love #1,3,4,6,7,9,10, and like the rest, except for one of them which you might have guessed. I take it you look forward to Inland Empire!

And for a quick confession: I haven't seen Casanova. Yes, I'm a fool. My favourite of his would be either 8 and a half or La Strada, depends what mood I'm in.

Ever watched a Godard film?

 

[elevated_u2_fan]

5. Lawrence Of Arabia

I knew I forgot one!!

Good list I was going to include Crouching Tiger as well...

 

[Screwtape2]

Such amazing movies. I love #1,3,4,6,7,9,10, and like the rest, except for one of them which you might have guessed. I take it you look forward to Inland Empire!

And for a quick confession: I haven't seen Casanova. Yes, I'm a fool. My favourite of his would be either 8 and a half or La Strada, depends what mood I'm in.

Ever watched a Godard film?

Inland Empire sounds so interesting. I'm looking forward to it more than the next U2 album.

As for Casanova, you really should rent it. It is basically Satyricon set in an urban landscape. I think it is his best film, visually.

I've seen Breathless and Vivre sa vie. Godard is a talented director but not exactly my taste.

 

[God Part III]

I (nearly) feel the same way about Inland Empire.
But basically because Lynch, like U2, has a nasty habit of postponing the release.

Trust me, I will see Casanova. Just haven't had time lately to catch up with what I've missed so far.

I wanted to recommend Contempt/Le Mépris to you, it's very different compared to his other films, although Godard all the way through, it's a landmark in cinema and my favourite film of all time. If you ever come across it, don't miss it.

I never thought that there might be film buffs on interference!

 

[elevated_u2_fan]

I never thought that there might be film buffs on interference!

We're everywhere... I'll check out Old Boy as well, I have heard it mentioned before but I keep forgetting actually watch it...

 

[Lancemc]

Just for the hell of it:

1. Lawrence of Arabia
2. 2001: A Space Odyssey
3. American Beauty
4. Pulp Fiction
5. The Shawshank Redemption
6. Field of Dreams
7. Eternal Sunshine of the Spotless Mind
8. V for Vendetta
9. T2: Judgment Day
10. Blade Runner

Honorable Mentions (there are a ton, but) :
The Good, The Bad, and The Ugly
Children of Men
A Clockwork Orange
Jackie Brown
Aliens
The Abyss
Empire Strikes Back
Little Miss Sunshine
Casino
Jaws
Fargo

Favorite Film-makers: James Cameron, Kubrick, Scorsese, Leone, Tarantino

And I really wish I was more well versed in "foreign" films, but I'm still working on catching up on all this great american cinema.

 

[elevated_u2_fan]

5. The Shawshank Redemption

:smackshead: I forgot about that one too! I have yet to meet a single person who does not like Shawshank...

 

[God Part III]

:smackshead: I forgot about that one too! I have yet to meet a single person who does not like Shawshank...

I fucking hate Shawshank.

Seriously.
Why? Read how I bashed LOTR, basically the same reasons.

 

[elevated_u2_fan]

I fucking hate Shawshank.

Seriously.
Why? Read how I bashed LOTR, basically the same reasons.

Wow. Really? Tim Robbins, Morgan Freeman, one of the most depressing yet uplifting movies ever made?

To each his own I guess

 

[God Part III]

Wow. Really? Tim Robbins, Morgan Freeman, one of the most depressing yet uplifting movies ever made?

To each his own I guess

It's just so bland and generic. But yeah, I see why people like it, it's not a bad film per se. There are just so many other movies to watch.

 

[LMP]

A favorite movie list to me would be different than a "Greatest movies I've seen" list. I base a lot of my rankings on rewatchability, which definitely effects how I view a movie. That's why my list is filled with more comedies

1. Back to the Future
2. The Empire Strikes Back
3. Anchorman: The Legend of Ron Burgundy
4. Raiders of the Lost Ark
5. Ghostbusters
6. Children of Men
7. The 40-Year-Old Virgin
8. The Life Aquatic With Steve Zissou
9. This is Spinal Tap
10. Tommy Boy

Honorable Mentions:
Batman Begins
Billy Madison
Blade Runner
Jaws
Little Miss Sunshine
Schindler's List
The Shawshank Redemption
Terminator 2: Judgement Day
V for Vendetta
Wayne's World

Just for the hell of it:

1. Lawrence of Arabia
2. 2001: A Space Odyssey
3. American Beauty
4. Pulp Fiction
5. The Shawshank Redemption
6. Field of Dreams
7. Eternal Sunshine of the Spotless Mind
8. V for Vendetta
9. T2: Judgment Day
10. Blade Runner

Honorable Mentions (there are a ton, but) :
The Good, The Bad, and The Ugly
Children of Men
A Clockwork Orange
Jackie Brown
Aliens
The Abyss
Empire Strikes Back
Little Miss Sunshine
Casino
Jaws
Fargo

Favorite Film-makers: James Cameron, Kubrick, Scorsese, Leone, Tarantino

And I really wish I was more well versed in "foreign" films, but I'm still working on catching up on all this great american cinema.

Like always we have very similar taste. I still need to see more Tarantino flicks and "classics" too.

 

[Screwtape2]

And I really wish I was more well versed in "foreign" films, but I'm still working on catching up on all this great american cinema.

Out of curiousity, what foreign films have you seen and what parts of American cinema are you interested in looking into?

 

[God Part III]

Great European cinema < Great European cinema, at least to me.

If you put up another poll, you have:

Tarantino, Scorsese, Coppola, Hitchcock, (Ford), Chaplin, Kubrick, Lynch and a bunch of others...

vs.

Fellini, Godard, Antonioni, Von Trier, Leone, (Truffaut), Almodóvar, Moodyson, Tarkovsky, Lang, the list goes on and on...

It's a very easy pick in my humble opinion.

Watch Breathless, it takes your breath away ;D