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Old 10-17-2007, 02:22 AM   #16
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Deep Space Nine the only great Trek?

You can't be serious.
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Old 10-17-2007, 02:31 AM   #17
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Quote:
Originally posted by Lancemc
Deep Space Nine the only great Trek?

You can't be serious.
Oh yeah. It's so much better than the others. Season for season it's better, which is to say, Season 1 of DS9 can be pretty dull, except a couple of episodes, but not nearly as dull and cheesy as Season 1 TNG. Same for Season 2. Season 3 sees things picking up and rivals TNG's 3rd season. Season 4, 5, and 6 easily surpass all the rest of Trek.

A lot of fans looked past DS9 because it didn't have a ship or tons of action, but it was a much better set of characters -- again, things improved so much by Season 3 and 4. Characters were more complex, and not just defined by their jobs like Crusher and La Forge. I get the strong feeling some of the TNG cast would agree, as Levar Burton and Jonathan Frakes have directed quite a few episodes, and Burton has remarked that he was upset they never really developed his character properly. They broke away from the idea of the perfect captain -- the perfect heroes. The conflict wasn't just among some alien races they could condescend to with noble answers, but within themselves with even Sisko and the Federation doing morally-questionable but totally believable things.

DS9 also pulled off comedy very well.

I do think TNG's 3rd season was probably its best, though, with some really great episodes, but things started to decline in Season 5.

Anyway, it's cool if you folks like the other stuff, but I'll always be a DS9er.
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Old 10-17-2007, 02:37 AM   #18
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Here are some articles in which Ron Moore discusses his role on TNG and DS9 and even Voyager, which was just embarrassing, but he really gets to the root of the problems as a writer and what he was allowed to do. He had complete freedom on DS9 under Behr, but not on any other show. Ron Moore got his start as a writer on TNG in 1989.

I've pasted the link to the pages in which Ron discusses working on DS9 and Rick Berman's interference. Just click on the other pages at the bottom to pick any of the other 18 pages. Ira Behr sounds like such a nice guy!

http://movies.ign.com/articles/444/444306p8.html

Here's another from back when Cinescape was actually a quality website. It's an interview with Ron Moore from January 2000, in which Ron discusses Star Trek and mostly points out the problems with how Voyager was written.

Part 1:
http://www.mania.com/18708.html

Part 2:
http://www.mania.com/18741.html

Part 3:
http://www.mania.com/18843.html

Part 4:
http://www.mania.com/18860.html

Part 5:
http://www.mania.com/18949.html

Part 6:
http://www.mania.com/18971.html

Part 7:
http://www.mania.com/18998.html
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Old 10-17-2007, 02:37 PM   #19
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Quote:
Originally posted by Lancemc
Deep Space Nine the only great Trek?

You can't be serious.
Yeah.

If you can't enjoy Kirk and Spock fighting spore monsters on some cheesy set, I really don't know what to tell you.
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Old 10-17-2007, 04:12 PM   #20
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Well, TNG reached critical mass with that Best of Both Worlds cliffhanger between seasons, and it's one of the finest cliffhanger season finales ever. That said, DS9 really blazed a trail for television sci-fi at the time with a huge, well-written cast of characters, and season/series-long story arcs.

I think DS9 was something truly innovative for the franchise, as opposed to a new ship and crew.
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Old 10-17-2007, 05:11 PM   #21
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Quote:
Originally posted by Lancemc
Deep Space Nine the only great Trek?

You can't be serious.
I don't mind DS9......but I'm kinda more of a TNG and Voyager person
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Old 10-17-2007, 10:28 PM   #22
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Quote:
Originally posted by Canadiens1160
Well, TNG reached critical mass with that Best of Both Worlds cliffhanger between seasons, and it's one of the finest cliffhanger season finales ever. That said, DS9 really blazed a trail for television sci-fi at the time with a huge, well-written cast of characters, and season/series-long story arcs.

I think DS9 was something truly innovative for the franchise, as opposed to a new ship and crew.
Babylon 5?
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Old 10-18-2007, 02:57 PM   #23
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Oh yeah, whoops Ah well, fuck storytelling, I always hated the CGI visuals in B5.
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Old 10-19-2007, 09:57 PM   #24
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Here's the best story in all of Star Trek, showcasing the complexity of the show above all other Star Treks.

It might be a bit tricky to understand all the references to the Dominion led by the Founders, which could be seen as a combination of Israel and the Soviet Union and any insecure group hellbent on control of anything outside their purview. However, it shows a complexity not found before or since in Trek history. It's really a forerunner of Ron Moore's work on BSG and he was most proud of this episode this year, since he served on the writing staff under the great Ira Steven Behr.

Part 1:

Part 3:

Part 5:
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Old 10-20-2007, 03:06 AM   #25
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THAT is what made DS9 the best. The characters were fallible. DS9 dealt with stuff Star Trek had never addressed before, in a tone that was so different from the good guys vs. bad guys we were so used to seeing.
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Old 10-22-2007, 04:59 AM   #26
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Speaking of Star Trek...didn't Nemesis suck balls? This is how it should have been done.
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Old 10-24-2007, 01:18 PM   #27
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Quote:
Originally posted by LemonMacPhisto


Babylon 5?
It's totally cool if you like it, but I don't personally like Babylon 5 or find it nearly as politically complex. I watched it because my mother got into it in reruns years ago. Other than Lando and G'Kar, the rest of the characters were awful. The doctor kept talking about beiong surrounded by death, and the only good episode with him was when he was trying to get off his addiction and got injured. Jerry Doyle was a Bruce Willis alpha male tough guy, and I hate the actor for being a right wing jerk. Bruce Boxleitner was an improvement over the original Commander, but his character was always portrayed as too perfect; it was always he and Delenn annoyingly professing their love for one another and then heading into a UN meeting like the always righteous leaders with moral authority to the petty foreign races; they were never in the morally grey area. It was a lot like the original series and much of TNG and Voyager and Enterprise that way.

The heroes of our story resolved the conflict among "the others", which very much affected, I think, how Americans saw conflicts in Ireland or between Israel and Palestine or whatever as simply petty -- something purely irrational and unrelatable. Now we have a War on Terror that no supporter of the Bush administration would regard as petty, but actually a valiant struggle of the utmost importance in vanquishing the other side. DS9 put its main characters in the center of the conflict; perhaps it could have done so more often -- given Sisko even more flaws -- but it was really ground-breaking that way. The audience identifies with the protagonist and realizes that even the hero is fallible -- not just practically but morally.

I did really enjoy that scene at the end of Season 3 and start of Season 4 of B5 when the creator told Sheridan that he understood he was willing to die for his cause and the things he loved (as any activist or terrorist or patriotic war monger), but asked whether he had anything to LIVE for. It really spoke to me at that point in my life.

Generally though the rest of the cast was awful, especially the Russian American woman, except her final scene in which she cried about the death of the guy who loved her. The only good things for me, were Londo and G'Kar, who had quite a bit of grey and nicely portrayed how two decent people could hate one another because of racial/ethnic identity differences. Even the whole evolutionary battle was quite a neat idea, but ultimately unconvincing in being overly intellectually-motivated.

The humor was terrible and awkward, as was the dialogue. I initially admired it a bit, but grew tired, especially by the 5th season.

Most importantly, I will always despise J. Michael Straczinsky for claiming DS9 ripped off his show with the war arc, and for constantly ripping on Star Trek.

Quote:
Originally posted by Canadiens1160
Well, TNG reached critical mass with that Best of Both Worlds cliffhanger between seasons, and it's one of the finest cliffhanger season finales ever. That said, DS9 really blazed a trail for television sci-fi at the time with a huge, well-written cast of characters, and season/series-long story arcs.

I think DS9 was something truly innovative for the franchise, as opposed to a new ship and crew.
I liked a lot of TNG Season 3 and 4, but I always felt the resolution of 2-parters on TNG never lived up to the promise of the first half, except that one Amnesty International episode in which Picard was tortured, and the 2nd part was so much better. On DS9, the 2-parters were always great. I think "Improbably Cause"/"The Die Is Cast", for example, actually surpasses any TNG 2-parter, except for a bit of uncomfortable military congratulatory jingoism, thanks to a less sophisticated Ron Moore. However, you're right in that "Best of Both Worlds" was a landmark; Ira Steven Behr still acknowledges that. It was written by Michael Piller who went on to create DS9, and left Behr in charge. He died a few years ago of cancer.

Quote:
Originally posted by Canadiens1160
THAT is what made DS9 the best. The characters were fallible. DS9 dealt with stuff Star Trek had never addressed before, in a tone that was so different from the good guys vs. bad guys we were so used to seeing.
Exactly.

I just saw an episode of DS9 Spike TV in which Odo is torn between the love of his people and the solids he cares for in the Federation and Bajor. When I was a teen, his social awkwardness spoke to me, but, as I'm older and more politically aware, it's this identity politics element of being part of many worlds that speaks to me as a Muslim. It's what Ira Steven Behr excels at. He's been doing the same on The 4400's 3rd and 4th seasons.
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Old 11-06-2007, 11:40 AM   #28
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Spike is airing episodes of Star Trek Deep Space 9 (Season 5 now, which was the best overall) at 11am and 2 am on weekdays. If you haven't seen it, you should.
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Old 11-06-2007, 02:50 PM   #29
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I can't believe DS9 got bumped off the radar by Spike for Voyager though. DS9's highs were really high, but its lows never reached the lows of Voyager.
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Old 11-06-2007, 03:36 PM   #30
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Again? Why?
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