Seriously and honestly and all that other jazz...NHL awards!

[Chizip]

Who's your pick for???

Jack Adams Award: Coach of the Year

Calder Memorial Trophy: Rookie of the Year

King Clancy Memorial Trophy: Leadership and Humanitarian Contribution

Hart Memorial Trophy: NHL Most Valuable Player

William M. Jennings Trophy: Goalie(s) With the Fewest Goals Scored Against

Lady Byng Memorial Trophy: Player who Displays Gentlemanly Conduct

Bill Masterton Memorial Trophy: Qualities of Perseverance and Sportsmanship

James Norris Memorial Trophy: Top Defenseman in the NHL

Lester Patrick Trophy: Outstanding Service to Hockey in the United States

Lester B. Pearson Award: Most Valuable Player as Selected by the NHLPA

Maurice Richard Trophy: Top Goal Scorer in the NHL

Art Ross Trophy: Top Point Scorer in the NHL

Frank J. Selke Trophy: Top Defensive Forward in the NHL

Conn Smythe Trophy: Most Valuable Player in the Stanley Cup Playoffs

Vezina Trophy: Top Goalie in the NHL

 

[cujo]

Jack Adams Award: Jacques Lemaire

Calder Memorial Trophy: Barrett Jackman

King Clancy Memorial Trophy: Steve Yzerman

Hart Memorial Trophy: Joe Thornton

William M. Jennings Trophy: Brodeur/Schwab (can't remember)

Lady Byng Memorial Trophy: Nik Lidstrom always wins.

Bill Masterton Memorial Trophy: Steve Yzerman

James Norris Memorial Trophy: Al MacInnis (without Pronger)

Lester Patrick Trophy: Wayne Gretzky? what are my choices.

Lester B. Pearson Award: Mario Lemieux

Maurice Richard Trophy: Bertuzzi/Naslund

Art Ross Trophy: Peter Forsberg

Frank J. Selke Trophy: Jere Lehtinen

Conn Smythe Trophy: Too tough to call... I'm gonna cop out and sit on the fence for this one.

Vezina Trophy: Hardest category... a lot of injuries and inconsistencies... if Nashville made the playoffs maybe Vokoun. If Belfour was more consistent maybe he would get the nod. Unfortunately Martin Brodeur will win, even though he has the best defense in the league. (yes, that was a bitter response from a small man).

 

[Michael Griffiths]

Chiznip! I told you I was going to go to bed. Now look what you've done. Alright, I'll give it a shot...

Jack Adams - Mark Crawford (as much as I don't like the guy)
Calder - Branon Reid (in all 3 games he's played, he's been stellar! )
King Clancy - I have no idea
Hart - Markus Naslund and Todd Bertuzzi (jointly)
Jennings - Who is it this year? New Jersey again?
Lady Byng - Naslund
Masterton - Lemieux
Norris - Lidstrom
Lester Patrick - no idea
Maurice Richard - this one they may seriously have to give to both Naslund and Bertuzzi (Bertuzzi has 46, Naslund has 45)
Art Ross - Naslund
Selke - Peca?
Conn Smythe - Todd Bertuzzi
Vezina - Brodeur

Alright, time for bed!

 

[Chizip]

I agree with Lemaire, I hope Jackman wins but I think Zetterberg will win. I heard during the Blues/Wings game on Sat that Lidstrom has only had something like 3 roughing penalties in his career? Can that be right?? 3 roughing penalties??? I dont know if thats a good thing for a defenseman, you'd hope they could rough it up a little every now and then. Umm, lets seeeeeee, for the rest of the awards I piiiiiiiiick Pavol Demitra. Yes, even for Vezina.

 

[cujo]

I heard Brian Burke writes into all of his player contracts this one stipulation: if you win the Lady Byng trophy, you will forfeit your salary and all benefits forthcoming...

I agree that Zetterberg is a contender, but I think they are sick of giving the trophy to a forward...

 

[kobayashi]

belfour should get the masterton.
he's been one of the best tenders in the league after being rendered virtually useless last year and hes done it all year.

 

[The Wanderer]

it's time for Brodeur to finally get the Vezina, he's a great goalie who has been a finalist several times (FU Hasek) the Devils do have an excellent defense, but dont score many goals, there is constant pressure on Brodeur to win 2-1 games; his poise and concentration are 2nd to no one, his stats and won-loss record arent bad either

 

[The Wanderer]

I dont know why no one outside of NJ ever talks about John Madden as a Selke candidate, or any other NJ forward for that matter

 

[kobayashi]

John Madden is awesome. every time i see NJ he is scary

 

[cujo]

John Madden is awesome. every time i see NJ he is scary

I think that's why everyone fails to mention his name... he's too good shorthanded, and for that I loathe him.

The Vezina category would be lacking if it didn't nominate Khabibulin... and Wanderer, contrary to what you say GAA isn't the measure of choice for 'tenders. That is a team statistic which is already covered in the Jennings Trophy... plus, take a look at Schwab's numbers. Even though backups play fewer games against lesser teams, when their stats parallel the number one goalies numbers, performance has more to do with the defensive nature of the team (I do like Brodeur, but there is a reason why he gets snubbed annually)...anyway, Nikolai gives his team a chance to win every night, regardless of how many goals reach the back of the net. Maybe that quality better suits him in the Hart trophy category.

 

[The Wanderer]

so how many games have you watched Brodeur play this season?

Schwab has played 8 games against the weakest opponents on the schedule, besides, there have been other years when Brodeur's backups got poor stats, it's quite irrelevant towards the argument regarding Brodeur

he does indeed give his team a chance to win every night, he goes out every night knowing if he lets in 1 soft goal his team has virtually no chance to win

not saying Nikolai isnt deserving, but Brodeur has been brilliant in this league for a decade, some of those seasons the defense has not played well around him and/or the team has scored among the fewest goals in the NHL, yet his numbers and his WIN/LOSS are always at the top, consistency...

oh, and 2 Cups aint too shabby either (played brilliantly in both Cup runs)

enough already with the "brodeur is overrated hides behind team defense" crap, it's a load of BS, trust me, I've watched him play hundreds of games the guy deserves the respect

 

[cujo]

Where's his Conn Smythe then eh?... I've watched him play many, many, countless playoff games (what's he at about 100?) and no doubt he is deserving of recognition for awards. But like a lot of goalies who are consistent, he gets snubbed all the time by "flash in the pan seasons" by goalies like Kolzig and Theodore. The guy deserves respect, but it is disrespectful to include him in the same esteem as players like Marc Denis who face 30 shots plus per game... while Brodeur sees the occasional 15.

I know that is a bad argument to say "don't give it to him he plays for a good team", but it is definitely a factor in the GM's minds when they vote for the best goalie in the league. If I had the vote, he would be a nominee every year, but my opinion is so miniscule in comparison to the people who decide player's contracts and who also evaluate them on a constant basis...

The fault in Brodeur is not GAA or wins, or even the fact that he plays for a good team. It's his scoring chance save % (not an official stat, but is probably the best indicator for goalie performance)... I know that it is probably more difficult mentally to face 15 shots than to see a constant barrage of 30 shots, but when you take a look at the types of goals that are scored on him vs. the "highlight reel glove saves he makes" there is quite a disparity. He is definitely a good puck-handler, but lately that is not exactly the most desirable quality for a goaltender... (see his idol).

I try not to parallel the arguments that the media makes about Brodeur's performance, because most hockey media consists of "has-beens" or "never-was"... but, seeing his play first hand and evaluating his abilities vs. his peers, in my opinion he is not the best goaltender for this year... blast me all you want, but don't neglect my argument because it subscribes to a different viewpoint about his style...

Believe me I've heard all the arguments for or against Brodeur, and in the end the latter always ends up on top. I would really like to see how he would perform for a team like Columbus or Tampa Bay... the best way I compare netminders is to take their save % and apply that to another team. More often than not the elite goalies usually end up with an average over 3.00 when you place them on "lesser" teams...

 

[The Wanderer]

first off, Roy was always an inferior puck-handler, it's an insult to compare Broduer's puckhandling to Roy's...

then you talk about a mythical, subjective "scoring chance save %"

the Devils defense has always blocked a lot of perimeter shots, that often pad the save % stats of goalies; Brodeur does not give up many rebounds and is usually in perfect technical position; as I said before, it's more quality than quantity with Brodeur, it's not easy to face 2 or 3 shots over 10 minutes and then from out of nowhere face a two-on-one or point blank shot in the slot (and then not give up the rebound)

the quality saves that you speak of have always been there for Brodeur, true, you dont see the occasional highlight film barages and he's not an actor in net (meaning he seldom makes a save look tougher than it was, in fact many goalies and coaches say the amazing thing about him is he makes difficult saves appear routine)

is he the greatest goalie ever? of course not, no one's claiming that, but he's definitely a future hall-of-famer and should be rewarded in a year when there are no overwhelming one hit wonders having monster years to compete with

as far as the Conn Smythe goes, both times he was runner-up, Claude Lemieux had several critical goals and played great two-way hockey in that run; Stevens was an absolute tyrant in the 2000 run, the guy left bodies everywhere with his hitting, intimidated and shut down players like Sundin, Bure, Hull, Lindros, LeClair and Madono that year

actually it's disrespectful for you to put Marc Denis above Martin Broduer

 

[cujo]

By the way, before I hear a rebuttal from Wanderer... I'd like to say that its nice to know that people here know hockey. It's sad how many poser fans there are out there... (if you want to think of me in that regard that's your choice).

... back to Vezina discussion... is it just me, or is this always the most controversial award?

 

[cujo]

actually it's disrespectful for you to put Marc Denis above Martin Broduer

admittedly so... but I wasn't ranking him above Brodeur in a career sense. THAT is the entire problem with your argument... disregard what goalies have done over their last few seasons. You definitely cannot compare the numbers of Denis to Brodeur in that manner, because it is unfair for both goaltenders. But for you to assume Denis is a lesser goalie simply because he has played fewer years and hasn't had the opportunity to win a cup yet is disrespectful in and of itself. Denis isn't making the playoffs, but that is more of a reflection of his team and their inexperience.

And also, scoring save% is not a "mythical" stat... it was talked about being introduced but it was thought to be a very subjective stat. The mere point I was trying to make was that there is currently no good measure of goalies in terms of numbers. There are simply too many factors to consider...

 

[The Wanderer]

why would I think you a poser?

I'm just weary of this argument with Brodeur, I've accepted it gracefully without protest every year for the last decade, but this year should be his

I guess what I'm asking for here, is that some fans who dont watch him every night give him the benefit of the fucking doubt after all these years... he's not a paper goalie, he's not a product of a system, he's consistently been among the 3 to 5 best goalies in the league every year he's been in it, stop trying to diminish his accomplishments

I'd hate to see him end up like Scott Stevens -- the greatest defenseman to never win a Norris Trophy

 

[The Wanderer]

quality scoring chances are very tricky, I've seen many games where the people keeping track of this statistic came up with some numbers that were ridiculously innacurate

 

[cujo]

I totally appreciate what you are saying about Brodeur, and definitely relate to how it feels when others disrespect a goalie for very superficial reasons. Usually I find that certain people like one particular style or specific goalie, and maybe that clouds their perception when interpretting another goaltender's performance... I am probably most guilty of this, but I'm trying to stray from using such limited scripts for evaluation.

Fuck Hasek... cheers to that.

I can't say I'm a Scott Stevens fan either, (seeing the New Jersey trend yet)... but I do feel he has been unfairly considered for that award. His value isn't in goals, it's in grit.

 

[cujo]

quality scoring chances are very tricky, I've seen many games where the people keeping track of this statistic came up with some numbers that were ridiculously innacurate

That's the fault in that measurement for sure... I'm sure you remember the meak 6 shots on goal Toronto got during the playoffs against New Jersey a few years back. It was definitely telling of who dominated the game, but I think there was a little "homer" pride involved in that statisticians considerations.

 

[The Wanderer]

in the 93-94 season, Stevens had 78 pts and was a +55, and didnt win

 

[cujo]

+55... sheesh. Who won that year? Was it Bourque, damn Bourque! That's the whole problem with voting. That's why Lidstrom will probably win again this season...

For a while though Al MacInnis was overlooked and eventually won... maybe Stevens can still pull it out, even though he's an old fogey now.

Congratulations on 5000 posts... is it as glorious as it sounds? Celebrating tonight eh?

 

[bonoman]

come on cujo, Marty won us the Gold Medal.

 

[cujo]

come on cujo, Marty won us the Gold Medal.

. going... to... explode.

I'll let that one go for a while... if I say anything about it, I know what the reply is going to be... he did his job and I guess that's all you can ask for...

Hey bonoman, are you gonna see any Oiler playoff dates... I'm trying my damndest to get a seat, maybe I'll see you up there... Rock the Chuck!

 

[Chizip]

Brent Johnson for Vezina, oh wait, I meant to say Brent Johnson is a vagina, sorry aboot that.

 

[The Wanderer]

he made some great saves when he had to...

but I wasnt gonna point to that, because I dont think he was the difference in Canada winning or losing, but careful before you make critical comments about his performance in the Olympics old boy!

 

[cujo]

he made two great saves when he had to...

but I wasnt gonna point to that, because I dont think he was the difference in Canada winning or losing, but careful before you make critical comments about his performance in the Olympics old boy!

I'd love to have a conversation about that... but there's really no point. The whole experience was very shallow for me. It would be predictable for me to say anything about the subject, and I know what all of you would say (now you see how I relate to your situation about Brodeur, Wanderer)... (if you didn't notice, I doctored the quote to your liking... just kidding).

Brent Johnson for Vezina, oh wait, I meant to say Brent Johnson is a vagina, sorry aboot that.

 

[The Wanderer]

two more saves than CuJo made

 

[cujo]

two more saves than Belfour made

boo... shame on you big W, shame on you...
I have no reply... really resisting long rant... don't tempt me...

Actually I won't... there's probably no convincing you that Brodeur isn't the best since he's your fave, and by the same token you can't convince me otherwise. So its really a waste of space. It's fun tip-toeing around it though...

 

[cujo]

It's funny that we keep talking about Brodeur... my sister is a big fan of his and she always gives me a hard time. She thinks player salaries should be based on looks... in her estimation Marty would be making quite the chunk of change.

 

[The Wanderer]

I never said Brodeur was the best

ugh, it's like when an actor gets nominated for an oscar 4 or 5 times and they finally give it to 'em, when maybe it wasnt their best film ever, but they've always been good, and the other's didnt have a great year, so why not reward the old boy (think denzel washington)