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Old 09-14-2007, 08:57 AM   #106
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Hurrah! We get to thrash the Poms today!

Does anyone know if it is possible to listen to matches online?
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Old 09-14-2007, 09:24 AM   #107
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Steph: I don't know anywhere to listen online and there's unfortunately no rugby equivalent of cricinfo.com, but I have found some news sites give live updates for specific games. Do a bit of Googling and you may find something. In the past, I've followed All Blacks vs Argentina via the BBC last year, and I once found some other English news site with updates for an All Blacks game against France but I can't remember its name now.

Also, you may have missed it, but I raised a point in a recent post about the class divide in rugby. In most countries (i.e. not NZ and Wales), rugby is primarily the domain of the upper classes. But what's the deal with South Africa? I know there's a racial divide, but what about a class divide?

Zihua: I've no time to get back to your long post today - hopefully tomorrow! I just need to correct one awful typo I made that in the post you quoted. I stated "Out of countries that have never lost to New Zealand"; I meant to say "that have never won against New Zealand" (I flubbed the order of "New Zealand's never lost to"). Ireland has always lost to New Zealand, and Argentina once managed a draw in Buenos Aires but has been thumped by the All Blacks whenever they play outside of Argentina.

Only five countries have ever beaten New Zealand: England, South Africa, Australia, Wales, France. We've also lost to the British Lions and a World XV (though we have positive win records against everyone). Amazing to think that half of the Six Nations countries haven't even managed a win over the All Blacks and just illustrates my point about Southern Hemisphere rugby's superiority!
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Old 09-14-2007, 03:55 PM   #108
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Well, England for the fail. At half-time, it's 20-0 to the Springboks. I feel that this has demonstrated two things:

- England are just shithouse and their offence is non-existent. There was absolutely no initiative in that half to score a try whatsoever. The only scoring attempt they made was a wayward drop goal shot!
- South Africa are perhaps not as good as we thought. They turned the pressure on at the start, and they ended the half with a new head of steam that should bode well for the second half, but during the middle they seemed to make some basic mistakes when the English tried to slow the game down and reel it back in. Let's see what happens in the next half. The Boks for sure have the big attacking initiative, and some improved handling would kill the Poms once and for all.

Speaking of handling, the final try before the half was the definition of the 14 point try. The English turned the ball over but one of the Boks threw a SHOCKER of a pass. I thought one English player coming through was going to collect it, and there would have been nobody in front of him to stop him from reaching the line - which was reasonably close. But luckily the ball bounced into a South African's hands and before you knew it, Pietersen was scoring a try. That combination of Pietersen and Habana on the wings is truly, truly lethal. As lethal as anything the All Blacks could field.

Also, congrats to Percy Montgomery for bringing up 800 test points.
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Old 09-14-2007, 04:29 PM   #109
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I really hoped after our game with the USA that we'd pick our game up, but in the back of my mind I knew something like this'd happen. Now with Robinson with a hamstring injury and Habana back on, that's the last nail in our coffin. The way we played we don't deserve any points, I can't see any imagination whatsoever.

33-0 now, I can't see England getting past the groups.
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Old 09-14-2007, 04:52 PM   #110
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36-0 at the end, England were lucky it didn't go all the way to 40-0 and the South Africans unfortunate not to come away with a bonus point - not that anybody's going to threaten them for first place in Group A. That English performance was thoroughly woeful. At least they showed some attack in the second half, but come on, those tactics may work in the Six Nations against the likes of Scotland, but it's not going to make a dent on the scoreboard when you're playing South Africa. The cruelest irony was that the most promising attack collapsed in a heap when Robinson pulled his hamstring. That was brutal, but full credit to the South African sportsmanship for not tackling him when he went down. It seemed the English were more happy to ruck over the top of Robinson than the Boks were!

I wonder when the last time was that England were left scoreless? Hard to believe they were the first country left scoreless in the Cup - even Italy got tries against the All Blacks and Japan got a penalty against the Wallabies! That was just so thoroughly dismal - the first real attempt to score a try didn't materialise until the 47 minute mark! Samoa are now a very real prospect to win over the Poms and go through second. I think England will still scrape through but only marginally, and they'll get the living daylights pounded out of them in the quarter-final by Australia.

Edit: Here's a laugh. Tonga are currently ahead of England in Group A on points difference! They've both won a game each, and the Tongans have a +10 points difference while England are -18. To return to second place, England needs Samoa to beat Tonga by 29 points or more in a couple of days. But of course, considering how the tussle for second place will ultimately come down to England vs Samoa, I doubt England really wants Samoa to pile on the points and improve their own points differential!
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"Who buys U2 records anyway? It's just music for plumbers and bricklayers. Bono, what a slob. You'd think with all that climbing about he does, he'd look real fit and that. But he's real fat, y'know. Reminds me of a soddin' mountain goat."
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Old 09-15-2007, 01:09 AM   #111
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Wow, what a shellacking. Am now glad that I didn't stay up to watch the game as I was hoping for a much closer contest. Double-whammy for England with the rugby and cricket (if you can even call that slog-fest cricket).

Axver: No prob with the reply, actually since I'm not used to posting I need to learn to keep things more concise here.. so please don't get bent out of shape trying to respond to everything there, your views are very insightful though.. In future I'll try to keep it briefer.
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Old 09-15-2007, 07:53 AM   #112
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C'mon Wales tonight....
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Old 09-15-2007, 08:00 AM   #113
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Heh, Zihua, if you think this is bad, you should see some of the really involved threads over on Free Your Mind. I don't know how the regulars there keep going. I wouldn't have the energy for it. Though I think I'm proving on this thread that I can be extremely longwinded ...

Quote:
Originally posted by Zihua
Hehe yep that sounds pretty much right. The self-aggrandising (?) in the Aussie media makes me cringe, and I think that they play a significant role in swelling pride to the point of arrogance in the Aussie sporting culture. It gives us a terrible image. I'm patriotic enough to enjoy seeing Australian sporting individuals or teams do well, but not at the expense of humility and dignity..
Yeah, I'd agree with that. It's interesting to note the differences between the Aussie and Kiwi media. In Australia, even SBS slips into "uber-Aussie-pride" mode sometimes, and the commercial channels are just hysterical in their coverage of Australian teams. Meanwhile, in New Zealand, there's no hyper-promotion; there's hyper-expectation. One of the few worthwhile comments a Channel 10 commentator has made this RWC, though it's a repeat of what people have said before, is that for the All Blacks, the expectation isn't that they try their best. The simple instruction from the general public is "don't lose". When they win, they're heroes; if they lose, we're merciless. Hell, note even my language there: "when" they win, but "if" they lose. We simply don't expect the All Blacks to do anything but win. It must be hard for the players.

And speaking of the media, am I the only person absolutely SICK of Channel 10 commentators continually remarking during their broadcasts about how the game is coming to us in "high definition, Dolby surround sound"? It's nauseating. I DON'T FUCKING CARE, CHANNEL 10! I'm on the verge of muting the game. I have done that in the past to Channel 7's intolerable twits.

Quote:
Hehe, I wonder how Dan Carter's insurers and/or sponsors felt about that? Sort of like Michael Schumacher having a kick between races? Not surprising that soccer is the biggest junior sport in New Zealand before the players typically defect to rugby - soccer is much easier to learn, and playable almost anywhere. And parents don't have to be as concerned about spinal injuries. There's a similar pattern in Australia and also I believe in the US, and probably quite a few other countries, although of course the differences between them are which sports are taken up once the kids have done their dash with soccer. In NZ, rugby is fortunate to have such a monopoly..
Heh, I seem to recall Carter's minders weren't so happy about the soccer. It certainly goes some way to explaining why he's so good with his feet though. Speaking of soccer-to-rugby skills, watching Argentina is always good because the soccer influence is clear in their gameplay and makes them a unique quantity in the top flight. I think what helps soccer for young children in New Zealand is that many schools prohibit rugby for the younger grades. At my primary school, we weren't allowed to play contact rugby until standard two, which is your fourth year, when you're eight years old. Before that, if you want to play sport, it's soccer or netball or whatever.

Quote:
The promotional media here tries hard to break down the barriers though, typically employing that failsafe sales pitch of the Aussie rivalry with certain other nations. I think that they do a pretty good job of convincing the general population that Australians love their rugby a lot more than they actually do.
That tactic seems to have some efficacy though. When I moved to Australia in 1997, I would have had a hugely difficult time finding anyone born here who gave a shit about soccer beyond playing it as a young kid. Suddenly, last year, it seemed like everyone was a soccer fan and if A League attendance is indicative of anything, that effect is lasting. I wonder if this new ARC provincial rugby thing will have an impact. When I moved to Australia, I loathed that there was no equivalent of New Zealand's NPC.

Quote:
Haha yep I think everyone pities the New Zealand selectors while envying their coaching staff! Just think of the poor guys who could easily slot into any other international side yet probably never get a look-in for the NZ squad. Tough life for them. Or are those the guys that end up in league, you think? :P
Ha, yeah. There are so many stories of world class players who simply came through at the wrong time in New Zealand because their position was not only locked in to someone else, but that someone else also already had one or even two back-ups locked in as their reserve. I wouldn't want to be a first or second five-eighth in New Zealand today given our absurd depth (er, that's fly-half and inside centre for Australians). Though watch out for Canterbury's Stephen Brett to burst into the All Blacks next year. This guy is apparently so insanely good that no depth could stop him. In the Super 14 next year, the Crusaders should be lethal with Brett and Carter; they will essentially be playing with two equally competent first five-eighths on the field at the same time, so their offensive capabilities will be insane.

Quote:
The fact that those league players were poached and fast-tracked into the domestic sides and soon after the national side says a lot about the lack of depth in Australian rugby, doesn't it? Sure it may have been as much or more about marketing than sporting merit, but still.. if those guys could push their way into Wallaby jerseys ahead of other dedicated rugby contenders, it makes the situation look fairly dire.
While I would agree with the assessment that it reveals a lack of depth, I think there were two other important factors at play behind the rush to include league converts in Super 12 teams and the Wallabies. You mention one, marketing - scoring Rogers, Sailor, et al was a big scoop every time and sure to draw a crowd. And the other is simply that the ARU didn't want its investment to appear to be wasted: why have Sailor rocking around in lower grades learning skills rather than in the top flight? Would the league guys even switched codes if they hadn't been assured of a place in the Wallabies? I mean, would you go from being in the national league team to a low grade of union that nobody notices?

Quote:
Maybe - hopefully - the gulf isn't as bad as I sometimes think it is. Your example of the New Zealand Maori destroying the US illustrates some of the problem though. Could you see the US team ever beating the Maori? I'd doubt it would happen, yet there they are in the World Cup. Sure more teams in a competition means more stadium and televised matches, and more revenue for the stakeholders, but the only hazard that a team such as the US or Portugal presents is that of injuring players from one of the marquee teams. It's a World Cup and they'll never get close to winning it, so what's the point? Anyway that's what started me down the hypothetical path of throwing in NZ and South African 2nd, 3rd (etc) string teams. How would they go?
I think that in 2006, a fair World Cup final would have been the All Blacks vs the Junior All Blacks. We could field one team and win by ~40 points over Wales in Cardiff, then field a COMPLETELY DIFFERENT team the next week and win by ~40 points over Ireland in Dublin. What does that tell you? Probably the biggest point against including the All Blacks, Junior ABs, and New Zealand Maori is that only Kiwis want to see all three of them in the top four!

I just find it so hard to comment on the talent gulf. You look at how New Zealand dismembered Italy, the Maori thumped the US, and South Africa gave Samoa a lesson, but then you look at how England only just scraped through against the US and Ireland unconvincingly beat Namibia. Is Southern Hemisphere rugby really that dominant that the minnows who can't even lay a finger on us are competitive with the Northern greats? How does that explain the fact that games between Northern and Southern teams are usually competitive? I don't know what to make of this. I see arguments both ways. There does need to be a limit, though. Portugal should NOT be at this World Cup. I keep saying it, but Portugal vs New Zealand should not happen. If I were the Portuguese, I'd forfeit. This is a pointless game.

Quote:
By the way I have to disagree on the league defence being flimsy, why do you say that? And don't say "Wendell Sailor".
I just feel that league defence simply lacks the imposing force of union. I can't say I've ever found a league team with a forward pack nearly as intimidating as an All Blacks forward pack. Half of those guys look like they run into brick walls every day and win, while the other half are built like tanks. I just cannot fathom how league forwards would even hope to hold up in a union scrum. League scrums are a laughing stock. When was the last time a league forward was poached? I'd be very curious how they coped in scrums, rolling mauls, and simply clearing the ball from a tackle situation far less conducive to easy clearances than league.

Quote:
And geez you've even gone and done some research on the soccer World Cup! I should've done this myself for comparison, so thanks for looking into it.. I didn't know that so few had won it, I must say that I always get the feeling that it's a much tighter competition yet the stats say otherwise, huh? At least for the overall winners, that is. As a competition though I think the teams are more evenly matched than in rugby. A minnow team such as Australia who just barely scraped into the 32 for once holding the cup winners Italy to a 1-0 scoreline is a fair indication of the competitiveness of soccer, and in rugby terms that would be something like New Zealand just scraping past Georgia; it's not going to happen, is it? It's at least heartening that in rugby no one team has had it their own way, though I have a feeling that that may well apply in this WC campaign..
You're quite right: the soccer World Cup's lack of diversity in winners is not that illustrative of just how competitive the tournament is. Perhaps a better indicator would be how many unique runners-up and third placed teams there have been. The soccer World Cup always has so many worthy teams vying to get in, and it's that much harder to predict who will be a semi-finalist. However, with the RWC, the teams who should be there always are, joined by a contingent of no-hoper minnows, and picking the semi-finalists usually isn't that hard. Group D may throw a spanner in the works this time around; my prediction of Australia vs NZ is still likely but France vs South Africa is looking unlikely right now. Argentina vs South Africa would not only be interesting, but would do the world of good for Argentine rugby. And if the IRB succeeds in getting SANZAR to open the Tri-Nations up to including Argentina as early as next year, that would be even better. Argentina are to rugby what Sri Lanka were to cricket about 2.5 decades ago, and look at how far Sri Lanka has come - even a World Cup win.

And, you know, I'd love to discuss the cricket, but for the sake of brevity, maybe we should rock on over to the cricket thread?
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Ian McCulloch the U2 fan:
"Who buys U2 records anyway? It's just music for plumbers and bricklayers. Bono, what a slob. You'd think with all that climbing about he does, he'd look real fit and that. But he's real fat, y'know. Reminds me of a soddin' mountain goat."
"And as for Bono, he needs a colostomy bag for his mouth."

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Old 09-15-2007, 08:06 AM   #114
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C'mon Wales tonight....
Wait, you're going for Wales? How come?

I'm hoping this will be a competitive game. Wales hasn't been convincing, but Larkham's last minute injury won't help an already fragile Wallabies outfit, and the home ground advantage means Wales will probably have about 80,000 screaming fans with the last name of Jones behind them.

My predictions for tonight:
- Wales vs Australia: The Welsh will push the Wallabies but the Aussies will be victorious by a clear enough margin, say 10-15 points. I, however, would love a Welsh victory. They're my second team, behind the All Blacks. I have always admired their passionate rugby heritage; for a Kiwi, they are kindred spirits despite also being fierce enemies.
- New Zealand vs Portugal: Come on. What records will tumble? Place your bets now!
- Ireland vs Georgia: Given the Irish made an effort of beating Namibia and the Georgians didn't disgrace themselves against Argentina, this will be interesting. Ireland will win, but the margin will likely be indicative of who will win the crucial Argentina vs Ireland encounter. My money's on Ireland winning by about 25 points and proving the Argentine game will be a nailbiter.
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Ian McCulloch the U2 fan:
"Who buys U2 records anyway? It's just music for plumbers and bricklayers. Bono, what a slob. You'd think with all that climbing about he does, he'd look real fit and that. But he's real fat, y'know. Reminds me of a soddin' mountain goat."
"And as for Bono, he needs a colostomy bag for his mouth."

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Old 09-15-2007, 09:28 AM   #115
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The NZ vs Portugal game was great fun....Portugal really gave it a go and definitely did not look downhearted despite the 100 odd points put past them...they made some good interceptions, played generally well defensively for a team of amateurs and even got a try...The Portuguese gave it their all and they made it a very enjoyable match....it didn't feel like a demolition...even though it was, it was just a fun match.

The Portuguese fans were also great.
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Old 09-15-2007, 09:59 AM   #116
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the England - South Africa match was disappointing

South Africa played about decent
England ...... not


tonight Aus, All Blacks and Ireland seem the logical predictions
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Old 09-15-2007, 10:08 AM   #117
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Quote:
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Wait, you're going for Wales? How come?

My ethnic heritage or whatever...also I don't really want Australia to be good at Rugby cause it takes the focus away from the Socceroos, who are the only Aussie international sporting team I wholeheartedly support.
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Old 09-15-2007, 01:24 PM   #118
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The NZ vs Portugal game was great fun....Portugal really gave it a go and definitely did not look downhearted despite the 100 odd points put past them...they made some good interceptions, played generally well defensively for a team of amateurs and even got a try...The Portuguese gave it their all and they made it a very enjoyable match....it didn't feel like a demolition...even though it was, it was just a fun match.

The Portuguese fans were also great.
Yeah, I'll echo this. Absolutely full credit to the Portuguese, they played with a lot of spirit and passion, they clearly seemed happy to be there. The All Blacks obviously didn't fully turn on the demolition machine - I think they went out for a bit of fun too, not to mention a training session in front of a great crowd. The game felt like it had a good atmosphere, almost like a festival. The Portuguese didn't care that they just got the highest score piled on against them and that they lost by the highest margin so far in the Cup; they seemed delighted to simply have done everything against the All Blacks: a try, a conversion, a penalty, and a drop goal! This was the outcome I wanted. I did not want the All Blacks to just dismember the Portuguese. When we did that to Japan in 1995 ... well, they're still recovering from that blow. I'm relieved to think that this game today has not done any harm to the development of Portuguese rugby. I suppose Graeme Henry helped matters by keeping stars such as Richie McCaw, Doug Howlett, and Dan Carter out of the game and playing some others out of their normal positions.

Though, one thing ... Channel 10 simply took a feed from a British channel, and it'd be nice if the British commentators learnt how to pronounce the last names of some All Blacks! Chris Masoe is not "Masso", it's "Mah-so-ee". I've no idea who the hell Mils "Mul-ay-na" is. Rodney "Soy-yellow"? Well, at least they pronounced Rokocoko correctly as "Rokothoko".

Oh, and one good thing about games like this for the All Blacks is that the unlikely suspects get tries. Congrats to Carl Hayman for scoring only his second try for the All Blacks in over 40 games!
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Old 09-15-2007, 01:30 PM   #119
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england were absolutely abysmal last night. one positive - things can only get better. farrell at fly half was joke. the team desperately needs some youth in there, the likes of catt and dallaglio look a bit too old now for rugby at the highest level. SA were better in every department, especially for pace. we're badly missing dave strettle and jason robinson sadly looks finished now

intedomine - get in the football thread, i've got a question for you about the socceroos...
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Old 09-15-2007, 01:31 PM   #120
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Crap game of New Zealand......................those 13 points there are too much.............................


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