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Old 12-16-2007, 03:59 PM   #121
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And how do you define rock? That still isn't clear.

Also, are you telling me that there are no female-fronted bands whose lead women weren't infuenced by her in some way? It's not just music videos or live shows where her innovation is apparent (though she should be given her due for those things as well).

It seems to me more that you don't like Madonna, and are trying to come up with little technical justifications for her not belonging. She's a major figure in music. That much is indisputable. My argument is that because of the way that genres have blended together over the years, it's hard to exclude someone who's certainly rubbed up against it as often as she has.

You also never answered my question: Does Michael Jackson belong?
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Old 12-16-2007, 04:06 PM   #122
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Originally posted by lazarus

You also never answered my question: Does Michael Jackson belong?
Yes, he does. He may have turned to pop music in his later years, but was a huge influence on R&B for a very long time, something I believe to be connected to rock in a very important way.

There's no more to discuss about Madonna; I don't consider her to be part of the rock n' roll spectrum and you do. In the end, I still believe the Rock Hall has become the Popular Music Hall, and people like you are trying to justify it needlessly.
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Old 12-16-2007, 04:12 PM   #123
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I can think of two acts off the top of my head that are eligible that are more deserving than anyone getting the nod in 08:

Depeche Mode have been eligible since 2006 but still have not been inducted.

Metallica are eligible this year, 2008, since their first record was in 83, but they are not in.

The future...

2009 - RHCP become eligible
2012 - Soundgarden and GnR become eligible
2014 - Nirvana becomes eligible
2016 - Pearl Jam, Smashing Pumpkins, and Green Day become eligible
2018 - Radiohead becomes eligible
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Old 12-16-2007, 04:12 PM   #124
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Originally posted by lazarus
Ray of Light did save her career, to be sure. And while she's never been regarded as a great singer, she can carry a tune. As for writing, she's co-written all of her material as far back as Like a Prayer, if I'm not mistaken, which is more than you can say for a great deal of artists who are in the Hall of Fame. She also learned to play a little guitar this decade to give her music another layer, authentic personailty. The point is that the reinvention wouldn't mean anything if there wasn't something substantial behind it. There's nothing phony about her exploration of sex in Erotica, her newfound spirituality through motherhood on Ray of Light, her political defiance on American Life, etc.

Also, seeking out new club sounds and working with them before they become trendy, always riding the wave of the moment is not something easily managed, and she's done it time and time again. When you compare her to acts like Britney, Paris, etc. you're doing her a disservice because Madonna has always been much deeper--she's much more of an artist than those teeny-boppers (something she never really was).
Singing in tune and playing an instrument and writing your own material means you're great and Hall of fame material automatically ?

As far as I can tell, Britney's always ever been a (altough weak, and less brainy) Madonna clone - and how many of the nu-pop princesses have we heard say "Madonna influenced me" ?. Paris may not technically be a musician (the solo CD aside) but the same sex/controversy sells trick is there.
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Old 12-16-2007, 04:31 PM   #125
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Singing in tune and playing an instrument and writing your own material means you're great and Hall of fame material automatically ?
Yeah, that's what I said. You sure love your straw man arguments, don't you?

Quote:
As far as I can tell, Britney's always ever been a (altough weak, and less brainy) Madonna clone - and how many of the nu-pop princesses have we heard say "Madonna influenced me" ?. Paris may not technically be a musician (the solo CD aside) but the same sex/controversy sells trick is there.
So you're blaming Madonna for who she inspired? I didn't say that these teeny boppers weren't influenced by her. What I am saying that that you can point to other, more respectable acts (for one example Gwen Stefani, ANOTHER artist who goes back and forth between rock, dance, R&B, etc.) that have been inspired by her. Also, while Paris and Britney may use sex to sell their music, there was usually a point behind what Madonna was doing. She wasn't just titillating for titillation's sake. If you can't acknowledge that difference there's no point continuing the discussion.
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Old 12-16-2007, 04:36 PM   #126
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Originally posted by LemonMelon
Yes, he does. He may have turned to pop music in his later years, but was a huge influence on R&B for a very long time, something I believe to be connected to rock in a very important way.

There's no more to discuss about Madonna; I don't consider her to be part of the rock n' roll spectrum and you do. In the end, I still believe the Rock Hall has become the Popular Music Hall, and people like you are trying to justify it needlessly.

So Michael Jackson is in, but she's out?

Where is his influence in rock and roll? Seems to me like he would be more traceable to later R&B singers, but that's it. Your logic is fuzzy and your position hypocritical. I agree with you that the Hall of Fame has been way too welcoming to unimportant acts (Van Halen?!), but I don't think that's the case here.

I'm done, too. Enjoy being wrong.
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Old 12-16-2007, 04:43 PM   #127
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You said she can carry a tune, co-write her stuff and play an instrument. I thought any musician worth their salt should be able to do at least one of the above, if not all.

I blame her for starting that whole avalanche. Speaking of Gwen, she was miles better when she was in No Doubt. And as stated, Britney and the likes are weaker and less smart Madonna clones, yes, she did have a point behind her actions. That still doesn't fully excuse her for stripping and dumbing down mainstream female pop for years to come. It bugs me someone like Christina Aguilera needs to drop more and more clothes with a vocal like that, and I feel none of this would be happening if it wasn't for Madonna's lead.
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Old 12-16-2007, 04:45 PM   #128
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I blame Cyndi Lauper.
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Old 12-16-2007, 04:46 PM   #129
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Quote:
Originally posted by LemonMelon
In the end, I still believe the Rock Hall has become the Popular Music Hall
I believe it has always effectively been the Popular Music HOF -- The Rock and Roll HOF just sounded more cool. Marketing decision pure and simple. But it's always really been the Popular Music Hall of Fame.
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Old 12-16-2007, 04:49 PM   #130
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Originally posted by lazarus

unimportant acts (Van Halen?!)
OK, you think Madonna is more deserving of a chance in a rock n' roll HOF than one of the most influential hard rock bands of the last 30 years?! This conversation is over.
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Old 12-16-2007, 04:50 PM   #131
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It bugs me someone like Christina Aguilera needs to drop more and more clothes with a vocal like that, and I feel none of this would be happening if it wasn't for Madonna's lead.
I dunno ... I think Christina did that because she really wanted to shed her innocent-young-thing pop act that she'd first been marketed as.

Plus, her clothes are back on now. Call it a pop-princess rebellion.
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Old 12-16-2007, 04:50 PM   #132
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Originally posted by indra
I believe it has always effectively been the Popular Music HOF -- The Rock and Roll HOF just sounded more cool. Marketing decision pure and simple. But it's always really been the Popular Music Hall of Fame.


I can buy that.
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Old 12-16-2007, 04:52 PM   #133
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I believe it has always effectively been the Popular Music HOF -- The Rock and Roll HOF just sounded more cool. Marketing decision pure and simple. But it's always really been the Popular Music Hall of Fame.
If this is indeed true, then why the discrimination against rap artists?
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Old 12-16-2007, 04:59 PM   #134
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I believe it has always effectively been the Popular Music HOF -- The Rock and Roll HOF just sounded more cool. Marketing decision pure and simple. But it's always really been the Popular Music Hall of Fame.

Quick and to the point.

LM, who's discriminating against rap? Correct me if I'm wrong, but weren't Grandmaster Flash & the Furious Five inducted? I imagine Run-DMC (better known than Grandmaster Flash, showing that it's not just about popularity) will get in eventually, the Beastie Boys came close, and I'm sure at some point you'll see other big names.
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Old 12-16-2007, 05:01 PM   #135
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Well, I guess we'll just have to wait and see if the rock hall really does skip them over, considering rap didn't really become prominent until the 80's.

But, honestly, I don't see Tupac making the Hall. I just don't.
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