Revolver Upstairs, Chapel St, Prahran, Victoria Superthread

[liamcool]

Any thoughts on The Comsat Angels? Our Secret is just breaking my heart tonight.

 

[Axver]

Ten "buks" says that Jacobite is Sting.

Any thoughts on The Comsat Angels? Our Secret is just breaking my heart tonight.

Now there's one of those bands I've always meant to listen to.

 

[Vlad n U 2]

Ten "buks" says that Jacobite is Sting.

Little doubt there. This time he just got stuck into FYM as soon as he got on.

 

[bono_212]

I think y'all are getting paranoid. There doesn't seem to be anything Sting-like about him. But I'll be fine being wrong.

 

[cobl04]

not sure why I got involved as I don't care not ever followed sting/maoili/buk/whatever's posting styles, but per a pm i just received

Spoiler

I am not Sting2 as it happens though can understand why you might have thought that!

Used to regularly disagree with Sting2 on FYM, though recently am more sympathetic to the neo-con line that he purveyed. Certainly on Israel, my opinions have changed over the years.

 

[cobl04]

Kieran's got it.

 

[cobl04]

you've got the spirit, don't lose that feeling

i've got the spirit, but lose the feeling.

 

[liamcool]

Joy Division and Destroyer in a sixteen word post? Impressive.

(I did have to Google the first one because the second one is from Disorder, though.)

 

[cobl04]

I like how they repurposed one of the most bleak lyrics of all time and made it life-affirming. I love Destroyer's intertextuality.

 

[Axver]

So it's official, I just completed my PhD in less time than it's taken U2 to record an album.

In fact, add my Honours year to that statement and it's still true.

 

[Vlad n U 2]

There's still time for me to complete my degree before that comes out.

 

[Axver]

I'm sure you'll finish your degree by 2017, Vlad.

 

[Vlad n U 2]

It's like every week FYM gets a new conservative poster now, what the hell.

 

[bono_212]

It's like every week FYM gets a new conservative poster now, what the hell.

What a fucking shame that there's more than one opinion in there.

 

[Axver]

It's just a shame that when there aren't far-right trolls (or, occasionally, an actual right wing poster who isn't a total nutter), the place goes quiet. The discussions on the Australia thread between myself, Vlad, Kieran, and Cobbler surely prove that there is plenty of room for interesting exchanges between people on the left. We all represent different points on the spectrum, and I would love to see some more wide-ranging debate about these issues. It would be a hell of a lot more constructive than stupid arguments with Sting, Indy, et al.

I keep saying that politics would be much better if we could get rid of the Tories and then get down to business and have the meaningful debates that need to be had between, e.g., social democrats, communists, J.S. Mill liberals, democratic socialists, Keynesians, etc. The right is an almost entirely destructive influence on political discourse and public debate, and obscures the worthwhile discussions. The centre-right perhaps has something to contribute, especially a worthwhile emphasis on individual liberties that is not anathema to many left-wing perspectives, but other than that the right champions a system that is economically, socially, and environmentally destructive and unsustainable. There is no point engaging people who give uncritical allegiance to laissez-faire capitalism, libertarianism, neoconservatism, climate denialism, anything Hayek ever wrote, and the like.

This may sound crudely dismissive, even unjustifiably blinkered, but I have better things to do with my time. I find it a hell of a lot more rewarding to have a discussion with my colleague (a member of the ALP Right, which for our American friends is centre-left) about how to balance economic and environmental priorities than I do to argue with some boorish person who thinks scientists are engaged in a global conspiracy or that Australia's asylum seeker gulags represent sound economic policy. I find it a hell of a lot more rewarding to have a discussion with Vlad about whether communism remains an answer to global inequality than with some boorish person who thinks your access to education and healthcare should be determined by your or your parents' bank balance. You get the idea.

 

[Vlad n U 2]

What a fucking shame that there's more than one opinion in there.

There already was before they came along by default, and they almost always seem to be alters of long lost users.

 

[Vlad n U 2]

I agree with Ax to some degree, he's different enough (as well as folks like Cobbler who consider themselves left but not to the point that I would see eye to eye with him on many things) in his viewpoints to me but on the same sort of canvas that I don't have to waste my time explaining something like the politics of the USSR constantly to those on the right who yell "Stalin!" at me whenever they notice my politics and then continue to reply with the same thing once I had made my positions clear.

 

[Axver]

Stalin!

Though I would be genuinely interested in a discussion with you Vlad - perhaps not here, but I'm not sure if it would go down properly on FYM - about whether communism is still a viable and persuasive ideology in the 21st century. You know I think much of its rhetoric is outdated and fails to speak to current concerns and issues, and that is partly why I identify much more strongly with green politics than red. I may be mistaken, but I don't recall you ever responding to that to show how it does, or could, respond to those issues. The nature of class identification (if not the underlying classes and economic relations themselves) has evolved, and given its sharp decline into irrelevance I don't think traditional communism has effectively responded to that evolution. I know this is a rather big point you may not be able to reply to quickly, but if it is something you want to reflect on at any time, I'd love to hear your thoughts. My sympathies are such that I would enjoy a reinvigorated communism and welcome its contributions to public debate, even if I would disagree with it on a number of points.

 

[Vlad n U 2]

Yeah, I'd rather not take it to FYM because it will get derailed effortlessly. I can't say too much for now (I will later and if I don't, remind me) but I do believe communism/anti-cap ideologies in general can be pretty malleable, I think some methods of "getting there" are now obsolete but there was never a "blueprint" for how this sort of society would work to the smallest detail (and Marx avoided doing so himself IIRC). I constantly get annoyed by others who so often get drawn into long arguments over the Russian Revolution, and I mean, relentless citing of different sources and books and it's just tiresome, and to a lesser extent the Spanish Civil War.

 

[Kieran McConville]

I have little to say about 'communism' (small or big c) but we're clearly headed somewhere. Seriously, the state of affairs that has pertained over the last twenty years in particular simply can't continue. Therefore it won't. Beyond that I haven't the faintest idea which way things will fall, but we'll all on this forum be alive to see, of that I'm sure.

Whatever system of thought prevails in coming years will have to find some way of grappling with permanent mass unemployment. Permanent mass unemployment that goes hand in hand with (of necessity, increasingly temporary) economic boom, even. In short, we're going to find out whether it's the leisure society or the gulag.

That's quite aside from environmental concerns as I don't think we'll do (for whatever value of 'we') much more than muddle on through and hope for the best. The rise of some alternatives (solar for instance) gives a little room for encouragement. If it gets exceptionally nasty in one time or place, then authoritarian dictatorship seems probable. Genocidal authoritarian dictatorship, if resources become exceptionally scarce.

 

[Vlad n U 2]

Tony Abbott will attach 3 artificial brains in and around his skull and develop 2 more arms to achieve the Stopping Of The Boats™

 

[Reggo]

I miss farting around on this thread all day and pretending to work. Wake up, Australia.

Sent from my SCH-I535 using U2 Interference mobile app

 

[bono_212]

What's up, reggo?

 

[bono_man2002]

We're up!

 

[bono_man2002]

I've just spent the last 90 minutes or so reading old superthreads #unemployedlife #granteditissunday

 

[bono_212]

Just watching some movies and cooking dinner...


...a dinner I should've started cooking hours ago, apparently. Didn't realize it was going to take two hours.

 

[bono_212]

Well, that was definitely worth the time it took <3

 

[bono_man2002]

Always satisfying after a cook! Not that I do it very often. Attempted to make pizza from scratch about a month ago. It turned out ok, but took forever! Our oven is hopelessly slow to heat up.

 

[Kieran McConville]

Wouldn't it be a lark to catch a plane to Iraq (aka Visiting Middle East While Australian), then catch a plane home again and inform the inquisitors at customs that you went there to buy some oranges. I can buy oranges, can't I, Brandis? What is this, communism?

 

[Axver]

Yeah, I'd rather not take it to FYM because it will get derailed effortlessly. I can't say too much for now (I will later and if I don't, remind me) but I do believe communism/anti-cap ideologies in general can be pretty malleable, I think some methods of "getting there" are now obsolete but there was never a "blueprint" for how this sort of society would work to the smallest detail (and Marx avoided doing so himself IIRC). I constantly get annoyed by others who so often get drawn into long arguments over the Russian Revolution, and I mean, relentless citing of different sources and books and it's just tiresome, and to a lesser extent the Spanish Civil War.

Yeah whenever you have time, some thoughts would be intriguing. I guess here would be the best place rather than FYM or hijacking the Straya thread. I'm less concerned with methods (though I have always found revolutionary political ideologies abhorrent - feel free to draw me out/challenge me on that if you wish, since I think you disagree?) or with using lame literary/historical indictments, and more concerned with whether the core ideology retains its relevance and potency. Language in particular. Language is important. The way you address issues and how you frame the discussion can be as important as the issues themselves. My concern is that a lot of the far left, especially those in the Marxist tradition, address issues with language that hasn't been relevant for decades and has lost its potency.

I have little to say about 'communism' (small or big c) but we're clearly headed somewhere. Seriously, the state of affairs that has pertained over the last twenty years in particular simply can't continue. Therefore it won't. Beyond that I haven't the faintest idea which way things will fall, but we'll all on this forum be alive to see, of that I'm sure.

Whatever system of thought prevails in coming years will have to find some way of grappling with permanent mass unemployment. Permanent mass unemployment that goes hand in hand with (of necessity, increasingly temporary) economic boom, even. In short, we're going to find out whether it's the leisure society or the gulag.

That's quite aside from environmental concerns as I don't think we'll do (for whatever value of 'we') much more than muddle on through and hope for the best. The rise of some alternatives (solar for instance) gives a little room for encouragement. If it gets exceptionally nasty in one time or place, then authoritarian dictatorship seems probable. Genocidal authoritarian dictatorship, if resources become exceptionally scarce.

I'm going to have to find a copy of the thesis of one of the other PhD graduates at my ceremony, because it sounded very interesting - a study of why current economic and political systems struggle to engage with long-term issues, with proposals for how this can be addressed. I'd like to see if it's pie-in-the-sky political science theorising, or a meaningful response to the increasingly glaring problems around us.

This semester is my annual gig teaching in a course on genocide. The final week is very depressing, when we consider whether resource scarcity will lead to genocide in the future. I suppose we've already seen it occur in places like Darfur (the underlying environmental/economic aspects are much more poorly reported than the racial divisions). Low lying regions of the world like Bangladesh are at incredible risk.

Wouldn't it be a lark to catch a plane to Iraq (aka Visiting Middle East While Australian), then catch a plane home again and inform the inquisitors at customs that you went there to buy some oranges. I can buy oranges, can't I, Brandis? What is this, communism?