Remembering WWI

[The_Sweetest_Thing]

Today is Rememberance/Veterans Day.

So, at 11am, if you can, please take a few minutes and remember all those who fought--not only in WWI, but WWII and all other armed conflicts.

Thus, I leave you with a poem (gasp! a poem! But this isn't Dream Out Loud!) written by a Canadian physician as he looked out over the thousands of crosses in Flanders, Belgium, and the millions of poppies that grew wild over the gravesite.

In Flanders fields the poppies blow
Between the crosses, row on row,
That mark our place; and in the sky
The larks, still bravely singing, fly
Scarce heard amid the guns below.

We are the Dead. Short days ago
We lived, felt dawn, saw sunset glow,
Loved and were loved, and now we lie
In Flanders fields.

Take up our quarrel with the foe:
To you from failing hands we throw
The torch; be yours to hold it high.
If ye break faith with us who die
We shall not sleep, though poppies grow
In Flanders fields.

 

[yertle-the-turtle]

.

 

[HeartlandGirl]

I would like to honor my parents, both of whom are veterans.

I salute you, Mom and Dad!

 

[Moonlit_Angel]

*Nods*

I'd like to salute the members of my family who were involved in various conflicts, too. Thanks for all you did.

Angela

 

[U2Kitten]

That was lovely. Thanks.

I shouldn't get into a historical lecture here, but I think the saddest thing about WW1 is that it didn't solve anything. The way it was settled only led to more problems which later led to WW2 and the conflicts in the former Yugoslavian countries that have happened in our time.

Millions of people, not only military but civilians, died in that terrible tragedy. Because of how WW1 ended, such problems were caused in Germany that would lead to the even more deadly WW2. Who had the bright idea of lumping the countries of Serbia, Montenegro, Croatia, Slovenia and others, some of them bitter enemies for centuries, into one country? (Yugoslavia) That was bad for many people. After the communist regime, which had harshly and cruelly supressed internal problems for years, fell in 1989, the old hatreds flared openly gain. There have been many brutal fights and deaths in that region since then.

Then there was the Bolshevik Revolution in Russia which drove the Tsar/Czar from power. He and most of his family were brutally executed. Lenin and the other Revolutionaries and terrorists who had tried for years to oust the government used the unpopularity of WW1 in Russia as one of their rallying points to overthrow the Romanovs, and then the Provisional Government that tried to turn Russia into a constitutional democracy. Death and doom reigned in Russia for another 6 years after the end of WW1 in the Russian civil war. Millions of people were killed or executed, many of them civilians, even children. The communist Red Army's eventual victory led to even more problems inside Russia and throughout the world with the spread of Communism, and then the Cold War.

How could those who thought WW1 was 'the war to end all wars' ever see it would only start so many more? Are we now, nearly 100 years later, finally curing some of the wounds that caused WW1, or were caused by WW1 and its aftershock? Sigh. Even so, the rest of the world is a mess.

I salute all the veterans, both living and dead of all these conflicts, as well as the countless innocent victims of it all. You are not forgotten.

 

[AvsGirl41]

You are exactly right, U2Kitten.

I am doing a paper on WWI as the "definitive moment of the 20th century."

The domino effect of war is exactly why we must remember those who were lost...

 

[KhanadaRhodes]

all my grandparents (i had three, cuz my mom's mom remarried) were in the navy. i know at least my grandpa was in world war two, don't know about my pop pop or my dad's dad (don't have a name for him really as he died before i was born). one of my uncles was also in the navy but didn't fight in any of the wars.

i'm not sure if any of the others have injuries, i doubt it, but i do know my grandpa was shot in the leg while at war and still has some of the shrapnel in his leg, i think. i'm not too clear because it's not something he talks about a lot. he's not a super talkative guy, so i'm not sure if he was traumatized by anything he saw while at war or if he just doesn't feel like talking.

 

[U2Kitten]

Thanks AvsGirl41. I'd LOVE to read your paper- I really would! I go to the library and check out stuff like that all the time to read just for fun. I'm a real history buff.

I also want to add that when I say I salute everyone who fought or died, I mean ALL countries, not just any one country or one side. Everyone who ever fought in any war were doing what they had to do and all their lives were worth something. So I salute everyone except anyone who purposely killed innocent civilians like the Red Army in Russia's Revolution and Civil War. They even shot the Tsar's kids.

 

[AvsGirl41]

If it comes out readable, I will send you a copy. I have a stack of books I checked out at the beginning of the semester and I haven't even begun to open them yet--too many other papers.

 

[U2Kitten]

Thanks! Good luck with your paper!

 

[bammo2]

Bent double, like old beggars under sacks,
Knock-kneed, coughing like hags, we cursed through sludge,
Till on the haunting flares we turned out backs,
And towards our distant rest began to trudge.
Men marched asleep. Many had lost their boots,
But limped on, blood-shod. All went lame, all blind;
Drunk with fatigue; deaf even to the hoots
Of gas-shells dropping softly behind.

Gas! GAS! Quick, boys!--An ecstasy of fumbling
Fitting the clumsy helmets just in time,
But someone still was yelling out and stumbling
And flound'ring like a man in fire or lime.--
Dim through the misty panes and thick green light,
As under a green sea, I saw him drowning.

In all my dreams before my helpless sight
He plunges at me, guttering, choking, drowning.

If in some smothering dreams, you too could pace
Behind the wagon that we flung him in,
And watch the white eyes writhing in his face,
His hanging face, like a devil's sick of sin,
If you could hear, at every jolt, the blood
Come gargling from the froth-corrupted lungs
Bitter as the cud
Of vile, incurable sores on innocent tongues,--
My friend, you would not tell with such high zest
To children ardent for some desperate glory,
The old Lie: Dulce et decorum est
Pro patria mori.
By Wilfred Owen (1893-1918)

"Wilfred Edward Salter Owen was born on March 18, 1893. He was on the Continent teaching until he visited a hospital for the wounded and then decided, in September, 1915, to return to England and enlist. "I came out in order to help these boys-- directly by leading them as well as an officer can; indirectly, by watching their sufferings that I may speak of them as well as a pleader can. I have done the first" (October, 1918).

Owen was injured in March 1917 and sent home; he was fit for duty in August, 1918, and returned to the front. November 4, just seven days before the Armistice, he was caught in a German machine gun attack and killed. He was twenty-five when he died.

The bells were ringing on November 11, 1918, in Shrewsbury to celebrate the Armistice when the doorbell rang at his parent's home, bringing them the telegram telling them their son was dead. "


Brings it all home, really.

 

[verte76]

You're right U2Kitten. So much of the crud that's gone down in the past century can be traced to WWI and its so-called Versailles peace treaty. Some of the stuff that happened in the Middle East after the collapse of the Ottoman Empire is pretty regrettable stuff too. Pretty hot-button stuff, I hope this post doesn't get me fried.

 

[U2Kitten]

Right Verte! I was just telling a friend about this today and he told me I should have added the Ottoman Empire middle east stuff because it happened because of that too! Thanks!\

Don't worry about frying, I'm the one who made this a FYM thread If we don't fry together we will most surely fry seperately

ST's idea was good and her tribute is beautiful. I just couldn't help thinking about all the tragedies that have befallen the world since that 11th hour of the 11th day of the 11th month in 1918.

 

[cass]

at the going down of the sun, and in the morning....

My grandfather returned from Flanders
My father return from the Middle East.
My bro-in-law is currently serving.
I think of them often
and all the victims of war

I was in Queen Street Brisbane yesterday, 11am, 11th November. I didn't see one person who appeared to notice the time. I was disappointed.
Lest We Forget..

 

[tiny dancer]

I salute my late Father and my brother (living) for being Veterans in two different wars.

 

[verte76]

bammo, I did a paper on Wilfrid Owen when I was a freshman in college majoring in history. I thought that paper was going to kill me because it was so damn depressing. I was really emotionally drained after the thing, then I made a C on the paper. It was the most hellish assignment I had in school. What a shame.

 

[AvsGirl41]

Robert Graves and Siegfried Sasson both have poems about WWI. They were friends with Owen. I love the WWI Trench Poets.

 

[meegannie]

World War I and European Society : A Sourcebook by Frans Coetzee and Marilyn Shevin-Coetzee and The Long Fuse by Laurence Lafore are both excellent books. The former has several diary excerpts, poems, letters, etc.

 

[verte76]

Robert Graves and Siegfried Sasson both have poems about WWI. They were friends with Owen. I love the WWI Trench Poets.

Robert Graves testified for someone who got busted for going AWOL during WWI. The poor guy had what we now know as Post Trauma Stress Syndrome, but was then known as shellshock and believed, as the name implies, to have been caused by proximity to loud guns and such. He'd had flashbacks of a corpse-strewn Picadilly Circus. Sorry to be gross but that's war for you. Someone in my family also had PTSS from that war with disastrous consequences--he later shot his wife then himself.

 

[Moonlit_Angel]

Thanks AvsGirl41. I'd LOVE to read your paper- I really would! I go to the library and check out stuff like that all the time to read just for fun. I'm a real history buff.

. History class was always a class I enjoyed in school. It's fascinating.

It's kinda interesting, in a way, to see what big events my family members who were in war were involved in-one was in the Civil War, another was at Normandy on D-Day, and I think someone was involved in Vietnam...I'm not sure, I'd have to ask my dad again. Just the fact that they were involved in the history going on is interesting, you know?

And I also agree with you about WWI leading off the chain of events. Very true.

I just think it's sad that people have even had to get involved in the military at any point and time. If we didn't constantly resort to war to solve our problems, there'd be no need for a military...but unfortunately, people can't seem to get along in this world and war is fought as a result. Maybe someday things can improve...

Originally posted by U2Kitten
I also want to add that when I say I salute everyone who fought or died, I mean ALL countries, not just any one country or one side. Everyone who ever fought in any war were doing what they had to do and all their lives were worth something. So I salute everyone except anyone who purposely killed innocent civilians like the Red Army in Russia's Revolution and Civil War. They even shot the Tsar's kids.

Yep. Exactly.

Angela

 

[mcranston]

hey Janine -- good thread. Definitely necessary.

(on a little bit of a lighter note -- how's it been going?)

 

[AvsGirl41]

Robert Graves testified for someone who got busted for going AWOL during WWI. The poor guy had what we now know as Post Trauma Stress Syndrome, but was then known as shellshock and believed, as the name implies, to have been caused by proximity to loud guns and such. He'd had flashbacks of a corpse-strewn Picadilly Circus. Sorry to be gross but that's war for you. Someone in my family also had PTSS from that war with disastrous consequences--he later shot his wife then himself.

Yes and there was one British doctor--the name escapes me, William something--that started studying PTSS. Both Graves and Sassoon went to him. I don't know if he ever succeeded in naming or really understanding it, but he was one of the few who made an effort.

There's a really striking documentary--I know it's either Ken Burns or his brother--on WWI and it goes into alot of detail on PTSS and the horrible, then-new injuries suffered during WWI. It's really intense. Liam Neeson does the voice-over of the doctor. I saw it my first semester and was just blown away, having heard nothing about "The Great War." It's REALLY good, I would love to see it again.

 

[IWasBored]

Thanks AvsGirl41. I'd LOVE to read your paper- I really would! I go to the library and check out stuff like that all the time to read just for fun. I'm a real history buff.

I also want to add that when I say I salute everyone who fought or died, I mean ALL countries, not just any one country or one side. Everyone who ever fought in any war were doing what they had to do and all their lives were worth something. So I salute everyone except anyone who purposely killed innocent civilians like the Red Army in Russia's Revolution and Civil War. They even shot the Tsar's kids.

the tsar's family were not innocent civilians. sure, a hemmophiliac who probably won't make it far into adulthoo, and girls who can't actually obtain country-running power aren't going to pose the same kind of threat that saddam's sons, but they weren't innocent civilians. you'd be hard-pressed to find a large group of soldiers from ANY country, ANY armed forces, ANY war that didn't kill innocent civilians. and i mean actual innocent civilians--citizens rounded up in stadiums and murdered in chile, vietnamese villagers who's homes were pillaged and burned, people living in hiroshima or nagasaki (sp) when the bombs were dropped.

 

[U2Kitten]

the tsar's family were not innocent civilians. sure, a hemmophiliac who probably won't make it far into adulthoo, and girls who can't actually obtain country-running power aren't going to pose the same kind of threat that saddam's sons, but they weren't innocent civilians. you'd be hard-pressed to find a large group of soldiers from ANY country, ANY armed forces, ANY war that didn't kill innocent civilians. and i mean actual innocent civilians--citizens rounded up in stadiums and murdered in chile, vietnamese villagers who's homes were pillaged and burned, people living in hiroshima or nagasaki (sp) when the bombs were dropped.

First, I think there is a difference between collateral damage of war (which everyone has been guilty of) and the deliberate, selective murder of certain individuals. Yes, Saddam's sons were selected individuals, but The Tsar's children are NO comparison to them, two grown men with a long history of atrocities like their father. The Tsar's children were, in addition to the 14 year old hemophiliac boy, young GIRLS- Anastasia had just turned 17, Marie was 19, Tatiana 21 and Olga 22. They were no threat to anyone. They were timid, shy, had lived sheltered lives (they never even went to school, they were tutored, had never dated, and never went anywhere without their parents) and would have easily fit into any US small town if they had been allowed to live and leave.

After reading numerous biographies, including diaries, of the Tsar since I was in middle school, I am convinced he was no evil, brutal dictator, but, for lack of a better word, lame. He made some very stupid decisions and mistakes and he honestly never had any idea anyone hated him. Anything that happened under his reign was far surpassed in evil by the communists, especially Stalin He had no problem with killing anyone, even whole families, for even being rumored to be against him. He had a famous quote that one death is a tragedy, but 10,000 dead is merely a statistic. So the Russian people were not liberated, but out of the frying pan, into the fire.

 

[IWasBored]

everything you said is correct, it's just that they still weren't technically innocent civilians. there's no rule saying children of nobility can't be completly out of the loop politically. calling them innocent civilians compares them to the peasant population. i can't believe that anyone who grew up with the extreme wealth that the romanov's had would be able to pack up and move into a peasant village as if nothing had changed.

i know nicholas II was a lousy ruler. i'm not defending communism, or the version of communism that was put into practice in the soviet union, but the idea was to liberate the people. it didn't work, but you can't tell me that in 1917 lenin knew he would die not long afterwards, trotsky would be chased halfway around the world, and stalin would begin a 50+ year reign of terror.

 

[U2Kitten]

They DID pick up and move to a poor village Tobolsk, when they were exiled to Siberia. The Provisional Gov't made up of members of the Duma (like congress) after the Revolution in March 1917 wanted a government like America's and that came back to haunt them. They gave too many rights and too much freedom of speech to the Bolsheviks who were trying to destroy them. Also the Bolsheviks used the fact that Russia had lost so many men in WW1 and the people wanted out to their advantage. The Provisional Gov't refused to pull out, saying they had lost too much and had to finish the job (like US in Iraq now?) But the Bolsheviks promised to pull out and that helped win over the people. During the Civil War, the White Army (anti- Communist) at one time held 90% of the territory and lost anyway because of Lenin's propoganda campaign and how the Bolsheviks controlled the cities and what media they had at the time. They seized newspapers, telegraph, telephone, and told things their way. Most people were not helped by the changes, just hurt in different ways than they had been under the Tsar. The Provisional Gov't, which would have been the best thing for the people, fell in Nov. 1917 and the leader barely escaped with his life. He moved to America and became a Professor at Stanford U.

 

[U2Kitten]

The Provisional Gov't (pro-democracy) never intended for the Tsar, his wife, or their children to be harmed. But with them out of power, and not only Communism but in many places in the great wide open spaces of Russia ANARCHY taking over, they were trapped. The plan was to hide them there until they could be snuck out of the country. But the Provisional GOv't didn't last long enough for that to happen. The family was seized by radical Bolsheviks, taken to another town and kept in a house where they were eventually shot. Lenin is said to have ordered all their murders. Even though I don't think Nicholas deserved to die, he was a deposed leader and he had to know his days were numbererd. His wife, who was unfairly blamed by many for some of the problems, would go with him. But I don't care, there is NO excuse for killing the kids. Most history books I have read do refer to the children as 'innocent' and are appalled they were ruthlessly murdered. Sins of the father? They didn't do anything wrong and didn't deserve to die.

Several Romanovs did end up seeing how the other half lives. I am reading a book now about what became of the ones who managed to flee before they were killed. One Romanov girl opened a dress shop but it failed. Another Romanov princess, the Tsar's neice, who was married to the man who killed Rasputin, had a hard time too. She was a Romanov, his family had been just as filthy rich. They escaped Russia with only 2 rolled up Rembrandt paintings and some of her jewels. They sold some in Paris and lived on the money until it ran out. They were swindled out of their paintings by a crooked AMerican art dealer because they were inexperienced in such things having been rich all their lives. They came to NYC to sell the rest of their jewels, but the US customs dept. confiscated them because they had ties to the Romanov Crown jewels and they lost them! This couple was forced to stay in the apt. of a friend. They met up with a gypsy singer they had known in Russia who now lived in NYC and had a nightclub act. At night she'd bring them leftover food from her work and that was all they had for days, these ex billionaires. She gave them money to go back to France, where they had a house. They struggled all their lives.

Some of them were taken in by other royalty to live out their days, but others became ordinary people and did what they had to do to survive. One married a girl from Ohio and they opened a store. One of the Tsar's sisters lived over a hair salon in Canada. So they could have made do in small town America. The Tsar always dreamed of being a farmer.

 

[IWasBored]

what books did you read? give me sources.

 

[IWasBored]

and i fucking know what the DUMA is. you think i'm an idiot, don't you?

well!! i bet i could wipe you out in one round of fucking-lame-ass jeopardy, now couldn't i!! BWHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHA!

 

[IWasBored]

actually, i've got a better idea.

why don't we just stick each other one our ignore lists, and go our seperate ways. i don't want to get myself banned, and i doubt you want to risk that either.