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Old 11-11-2003, 04:41 PM   #16
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bammo, I did a paper on Wilfrid Owen when I was a freshman in college majoring in history. I thought that paper was going to kill me because it was so damn depressing. I was really emotionally drained after the thing, then I made a C on the paper. It was the most hellish assignment I had in school. What a shame.
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Old 11-11-2003, 05:22 PM   #17
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Robert Graves and Siegfried Sasson both have poems about WWI. They were friends with Owen. I love the WWI Trench Poets.
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Old 11-11-2003, 05:34 PM   #18
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World War I and European Society : A Sourcebook by Frans Coetzee and Marilyn Shevin-Coetzee and The Long Fuse by Laurence Lafore are both excellent books. The former has several diary excerpts, poems, letters, etc.
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Old 11-11-2003, 06:03 PM   #19
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Originally posted by AvsGirl41
Robert Graves and Siegfried Sasson both have poems about WWI. They were friends with Owen. I love the WWI Trench Poets.
Robert Graves testified for someone who got busted for going AWOL during WWI. The poor guy had what we now know as Post Trauma Stress Syndrome, but was then known as shellshock and believed, as the name implies, to have been caused by proximity to loud guns and such. He'd had flashbacks of a corpse-strewn Picadilly Circus. Sorry to be gross but that's war for you. Someone in my family also had PTSS from that war with disastrous consequences--he later shot his wife then himself.
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Old 11-11-2003, 06:50 PM   #20
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Thanks AvsGirl41. I'd LOVE to read your paper- I really would! I go to the library and check out stuff like that all the time to read just for fun. I'm a real history buff.
. History class was always a class I enjoyed in school. It's fascinating.

It's kinda interesting, in a way, to see what big events my family members who were in war were involved in-one was in the Civil War, another was at Normandy on D-Day, and I think someone was involved in Vietnam...I'm not sure, I'd have to ask my dad again. Just the fact that they were involved in the history going on is interesting, you know?

And I also agree with you about WWI leading off the chain of events. Very true.

I just think it's sad that people have even had to get involved in the military at any point and time. If we didn't constantly resort to war to solve our problems, there'd be no need for a military...but unfortunately, people can't seem to get along in this world and war is fought as a result. Maybe someday things can improve...

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I also want to add that when I say I salute everyone who fought or died, I mean ALL countries, not just any one country or one side. Everyone who ever fought in any war were doing what they had to do and all their lives were worth something. So I salute everyone except anyone who purposely killed innocent civilians like the Red Army in Russia's Revolution and Civil War. They even shot the Tsar's kids.
Yep. Exactly.

Angela
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Old 11-11-2003, 10:10 PM   #21
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hey Janine -- good thread. Definitely necessary.

(on a little bit of a lighter note -- how's it been going?)
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Old 11-11-2003, 10:39 PM   #22
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Robert Graves testified for someone who got busted for going AWOL during WWI. The poor guy had what we now know as Post Trauma Stress Syndrome, but was then known as shellshock and believed, as the name implies, to have been caused by proximity to loud guns and such. He'd had flashbacks of a corpse-strewn Picadilly Circus. Sorry to be gross but that's war for you. Someone in my family also had PTSS from that war with disastrous consequences--he later shot his wife then himself.
Yes and there was one British doctor--the name escapes me, William something--that started studying PTSS. Both Graves and Sassoon went to him. I don't know if he ever succeeded in naming or really understanding it, but he was one of the few who made an effort.

There's a really striking documentary--I know it's either Ken Burns or his brother--on WWI and it goes into alot of detail on PTSS and the horrible, then-new injuries suffered during WWI. It's really intense. Liam Neeson does the voice-over of the doctor. I saw it my first semester and was just blown away, having heard nothing about "The Great War." It's REALLY good, I would love to see it again.
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Old 11-12-2003, 01:27 AM   #23
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Thanks AvsGirl41. I'd LOVE to read your paper- I really would! I go to the library and check out stuff like that all the time to read just for fun. I'm a real history buff.

I also want to add that when I say I salute everyone who fought or died, I mean ALL countries, not just any one country or one side. Everyone who ever fought in any war were doing what they had to do and all their lives were worth something. So I salute everyone except anyone who purposely killed innocent civilians like the Red Army in Russia's Revolution and Civil War. They even shot the Tsar's kids.

the tsar's family were not innocent civilians. sure, a hemmophiliac who probably won't make it far into adulthoo, and girls who can't actually obtain country-running power aren't going to pose the same kind of threat that saddam's sons, but they weren't innocent civilians. you'd be hard-pressed to find a large group of soldiers from ANY country, ANY armed forces, ANY war that didn't kill innocent civilians. and i mean actual innocent civilians--citizens rounded up in stadiums and murdered in chile, vietnamese villagers who's homes were pillaged and burned, people living in hiroshima or nagasaki (sp) when the bombs were dropped.
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Old 11-12-2003, 06:51 AM   #24
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the tsar's family were not innocent civilians. sure, a hemmophiliac who probably won't make it far into adulthoo, and girls who can't actually obtain country-running power aren't going to pose the same kind of threat that saddam's sons, but they weren't innocent civilians. you'd be hard-pressed to find a large group of soldiers from ANY country, ANY armed forces, ANY war that didn't kill innocent civilians. and i mean actual innocent civilians--citizens rounded up in stadiums and murdered in chile, vietnamese villagers who's homes were pillaged and burned, people living in hiroshima or nagasaki (sp) when the bombs were dropped.
First, I think there is a difference between collateral damage of war (which everyone has been guilty of) and the deliberate, selective murder of certain individuals. Yes, Saddam's sons were selected individuals, but The Tsar's children are NO comparison to them, two grown men with a long history of atrocities like their father. The Tsar's children were, in addition to the 14 year old hemophiliac boy, young GIRLS- Anastasia had just turned 17, Marie was 19, Tatiana 21 and Olga 22. They were no threat to anyone. They were timid, shy, had lived sheltered lives (they never even went to school, they were tutored, had never dated, and never went anywhere without their parents) and would have easily fit into any US small town if they had been allowed to live and leave.

After reading numerous biographies, including diaries, of the Tsar since I was in middle school, I am convinced he was no evil, brutal dictator, but, for lack of a better word, lame. He made some very stupid decisions and mistakes and he honestly never had any idea anyone hated him. Anything that happened under his reign was far surpassed in evil by the communists, especially Stalin He had no problem with killing anyone, even whole families, for even being rumored to be against him. He had a famous quote that one death is a tragedy, but 10,000 dead is merely a statistic. So the Russian people were not liberated, but out of the frying pan, into the fire.
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Old 11-12-2003, 11:59 AM   #25
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everything you said is correct, it's just that they still weren't technically innocent civilians. there's no rule saying children of nobility can't be completly out of the loop politically. calling them innocent civilians compares them to the peasant population. i can't believe that anyone who grew up with the extreme wealth that the romanov's had would be able to pack up and move into a peasant village as if nothing had changed.

i know nicholas II was a lousy ruler. i'm not defending communism, or the version of communism that was put into practice in the soviet union, but the idea was to liberate the people. it didn't work, but you can't tell me that in 1917 lenin knew he would die not long afterwards, trotsky would be chased halfway around the world, and stalin would begin a 50+ year reign of terror.
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Old 11-12-2003, 02:16 PM   #26
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They DID pick up and move to a poor village Tobolsk, when they were exiled to Siberia. The Provisional Gov't made up of members of the Duma (like congress) after the Revolution in March 1917 wanted a government like America's and that came back to haunt them. They gave too many rights and too much freedom of speech to the Bolsheviks who were trying to destroy them. Also the Bolsheviks used the fact that Russia had lost so many men in WW1 and the people wanted out to their advantage. The Provisional Gov't refused to pull out, saying they had lost too much and had to finish the job (like US in Iraq now?) But the Bolsheviks promised to pull out and that helped win over the people. During the Civil War, the White Army (anti- Communist) at one time held 90% of the territory and lost anyway because of Lenin's propoganda campaign and how the Bolsheviks controlled the cities and what media they had at the time. They seized newspapers, telegraph, telephone, and told things their way. Most people were not helped by the changes, just hurt in different ways than they had been under the Tsar. The Provisional Gov't, which would have been the best thing for the people, fell in Nov. 1917 and the leader barely escaped with his life. He moved to America and became a Professor at Stanford U.
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Old 11-12-2003, 02:27 PM   #27
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Normal

The Provisional Gov't (pro-democracy) never intended for the Tsar, his wife, or their children to be harmed. But with them out of power, and not only Communism but in many places in the great wide open spaces of Russia ANARCHY taking over, they were trapped. The plan was to hide them there until they could be snuck out of the country. But the Provisional GOv't didn't last long enough for that to happen. The family was seized by radical Bolsheviks, taken to another town and kept in a house where they were eventually shot. Lenin is said to have ordered all their murders. Even though I don't think Nicholas deserved to die, he was a deposed leader and he had to know his days were numbererd. His wife, who was unfairly blamed by many for some of the problems, would go with him. But I don't care, there is NO excuse for killing the kids. Most history books I have read do refer to the children as 'innocent' and are appalled they were ruthlessly murdered. Sins of the father? They didn't do anything wrong and didn't deserve to die.

Several Romanovs did end up seeing how the other half lives. I am reading a book now about what became of the ones who managed to flee before they were killed. One Romanov girl opened a dress shop but it failed. Another Romanov princess, the Tsar's neice, who was married to the man who killed Rasputin, had a hard time too. She was a Romanov, his family had been just as filthy rich. They escaped Russia with only 2 rolled up Rembrandt paintings and some of her jewels. They sold some in Paris and lived on the money until it ran out. They were swindled out of their paintings by a crooked AMerican art dealer because they were inexperienced in such things having been rich all their lives. They came to NYC to sell the rest of their jewels, but the US customs dept. confiscated them because they had ties to the Romanov Crown jewels and they lost them! This couple was forced to stay in the apt. of a friend. They met up with a gypsy singer they had known in Russia who now lived in NYC and had a nightclub act. At night she'd bring them leftover food from her work and that was all they had for days, these ex billionaires. She gave them money to go back to France, where they had a house. They struggled all their lives.

Some of them were taken in by other royalty to live out their days, but others became ordinary people and did what they had to do to survive. One married a girl from Ohio and they opened a store. One of the Tsar's sisters lived over a hair salon in Canada. So they could have made do in small town America. The Tsar always dreamed of being a farmer.
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Old 11-12-2003, 03:29 PM   #28
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what books did you read? give me sources.
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Old 11-12-2003, 03:30 PM   #29
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and i fucking know what the DUMA is. you think i'm an idiot, don't you?

well!! i bet i could wipe you out in one round of fucking-lame-ass jeopardy, now couldn't i!! BWHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHA!
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Old 11-12-2003, 03:34 PM   #30
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actually, i've got a better idea.

why don't we just stick each other one our ignore lists, and go our seperate ways. i don't want to get myself banned, and i doubt you want to risk that either.
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