lazarus
Blue Crack Supplier
Philly loses again.
Random Music Talk CXXII: 2018 It Is
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cobl04
45:33
that's a pretty defensive position to take. I get it, but when the right/alt-right/etc spends so much time telling feminists that they're triggered, but then we get triggered/offended/upset/hurt by a series of tweets that are pretty much spot fucking on? "Straight white men don't review our album it's not for you" is completely understandable and acceptable. I can love and enjoy the record like I do but if I was writing for a publication I'd be asking for a female to review it, because there's shit to it that I can't understand because I'm not a woman.
No different to Mobb Deep calling out white writers for reviewing The Infamous.
I mean yeah, I agree.
Wow! That's pretty amazing.
LemonMelon
More 5G Than Man
"Straight white men don't review our album it's not for you" is completely understandable and acceptable. I can love and enjoy the record like I do but if I was writing for a publication I'd be asking for a female to review it, because there's shit to it that I can't understand because I'm not a woman.
No different to Mobb Deep calling out white writers for reviewing The Infamous.
I am being pretty defensive, but I think there's a way to phrase this request on the artist's part that allows a huge chunk of their fanbase to feel valued while also explaining that the literature on the album will be of higher quality with an applicable voice. Making a joke out of male journalists (in certain tweets not just white men, not just straight men, but all male writers) makes for a good social media shitstorm, but it doesn't make me feel wanted as a fan of music, which is a universal medium in most respects.
That said, I will listen to the album and expect to like it. My favorite album this year is a rock album about a gay man's relationship with a trans woman, not to mention one of my favorite rock albums is Team Dresch's Personal Best, which is a queercore classic. At the very least, I think I'm extremely open to hearing the gay experience expressed on record and often go out of my way to recommend albums covering that subject matter to others. But I can accept that I'm not the #1 choice to speak on the emotional impact of these records.
Hope that makes sense.
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cobl04
45:33
I get where you're coming from for sure, but I think you've also gotta look at where they're coming from - they've had - and all the women before them have had - years and years and years of men coming up to them and telling them about the way things should be. So the anger is very understandable, and I think it's fair enough to be abrasive in their approach to that. Feminists shouldn't have to cater to the egos of gentle straight white men like you and me. We're the problem, not them, so they shouldn't have to bend to cater to us. You know what I mean?
And yeah, I know you're coming from a good place as well. I feel what you mean, I was thinking along the same lines as I was walking to the tram this morning. But ultimately, it's not about me, and all power to them for getting their message out how they like it. And to be honest, that's way more authentic than faking it to cater for everyone else.
Will Toledo is gay? I did not know that back story about Twin Fantasy.
And yeah, I know you're coming from a good place as well. I feel what you mean, I was thinking along the same lines as I was walking to the tram this morning. But ultimately, it's not about me, and all power to them for getting their message out how they like it. And to be honest, that's way more authentic than faking it to cater for everyone else.
Will Toledo is gay? I did not know that back story about Twin Fantasy.
LemonMelon
More 5G Than Man
Sure. I mean, if I want to be a good example of my sex/race/gender, the first step is to be empathetic. A mutual understanding and connection with others is really what most of us are looking for, especially artists. I can pretend all I like that I would act differently in her position, but the reality is that I have never been in it and can only abstractly conceptualize the challenges of her life.
Will is gay, but he's a Frank Ocean type that likes to keep the details confined within his music. It would be cool if he started being a public voice for the gay community, because he's very well-spoken and conveys his experiences well, but that's his business.
Will is gay, but he's a Frank Ocean type that likes to keep the details confined within his music. It would be cool if he started being a public voice for the gay community, because he's very well-spoken and conveys his experiences well, but that's his business.
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This thing is shit. I really can't figure out where they're getting the data. And their "equalised playlist" for me is more dude-heavy than what I've been listening to.
Just a quick look at my last.fm: only a third of my top fifty artists from the past year are all male. It's even harder to find a male lead in my top fifty songs.
Are they classifying every artist as male that they don't recognise?
cobl04
45:33
Yeah I'd like to know as well, I don't think my ratio could be 97 to 3.
I for one am outraged that Picasso dared to paint Guernica! As if he ever survived a mass bombing of his hometown!
cobl04
45:33
Way to miss the point my man
Ha, I know I know.
But still, I don't think an artist should decide who can or cannot review an album. Sure, you can find some opinions more valid than others but that doesn't mean they shouldn't express their opinion.
I also think that it's actually very positive if cis white men, who are the 'problem', review/listen to the album. It can always be a first step of becoming the solution. And well, if some of them don't like it, who cares. There will be tons of them who do like it .
But still, I don't think an artist should decide who can or cannot review an album. Sure, you can find some opinions more valid than others but that doesn't mean they shouldn't express their opinion.
I also think that it's actually very positive if cis white men, who are the 'problem', review/listen to the album. It can always be a first step of becoming the solution. And well, if some of them don't like it, who cares. There will be tons of them who do like it .
DaveC
Blue Crack Addict
obscured by clouds is by far the most underrated album of all time.
cobl04
45:33
Anyone can listen to it and have a view on it, they're not saying that's the issue. They're saying straight white men don't review our album as it's not made for you; ie, the issues that it talks about are not aimed at you, therefore, it's much better off being reviewed by a woman, which is completely fair enough.
Here's a good thread on it: https://twitter.com/DJYwrites/status/971175969686876160
Were you on weed or acid when you wrote this
It isn't even the most under-rated Pink Floyd album.
DaveC
Blue Crack Addict
nope. stone sober and completely serious.
okay, maybe it's not the most underrated of all time, though i would maintain that it's not too far off.
but it's easily the most underrated pink floyd album and i don't think it's even close. everything else between 1971 and 1981 gets a ton of well-deserved love, and OBC is more or less completely forgotten to everyone except huge floyd fans despite it being right in the middle of their prime years. the stuff that came before meddle isn't nearly as high-quality and the stuff after the wall is obviously not as good as 70s floyd but is still praised much more than OBC, which isn't even talked about at all. i don't know how a real argument could be made for any other floyd album. even the wall and meddle have some dogshit tracks on them, and imo obscured by clouds doesn't have any real clunkers.
leaving aside the fact that your taste in what's over and underrated is highly questionable after giving one a 2 and trip through your wires and so cruel a 1 out of 10...what do you think is the most underrated?
LemonMelon
More 5G Than Man
I don't think any of us in this discussion are arguing that straight white males reviewing the album would necessarily improve the literature on the album. It's one perspective, perhaps one of interest, but clearly it's important that the target audience is heard as well. If I were in her position, I would want the same thing.
But my problem was Georgia being a total dick about it from the start and this guy doesn't really address that. Twitter encourages us to be curt and simplify our thoughts, so that's part of why Twitter "discussions" on issues like this, and the statements that begin them, tend to be so simplified and reactionary. If she had just said "hey, I think it would be best if straight white males offered other demographics the opportunity to review this because of the content," I wouldn't have even brought it up.
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lazarus
Blue Crack Supplier
I listen to OBC all the time (picked up a cheap used copy of the remaster at Amoeba a couple months ago) and I have to agree.
No joke, it's probably my third favorite PF album after Wish You Were Here and Meddle.
LemonMelon
More 5G Than Man
I'll back OBC as being hugely underrated. There's just a certain vibe about it that's entrancing and lovely. Great autumn record.
cobl04
45:33
But again, this plays into the whole women should care about poor sensitive straight white men's feelings, and should temper everything they say so they fell loved and appreciated, and I'm sorry, but that's crap. It's fair enough if they're sick of that. Like you, I'd prefer a love-in as well, it's nicer, but I don't let it bother me, because fair enough. The onus is on us to listen and change, not for the women in question to temper everything they say.
LemonMelon
More 5G Than Man
Nah, I'm not looking for a love-in. It's just important to say what you actually mean in these situations, doing a service to your position on your art (e.g. I want my album represented by its target audience) because otherwise you leave a big chunk of your fanbase wondering if they're even welcome, which isn't the point at all. I like Camp Cope's first album quite a bit and am looking forward to hearing their new one, but does Georgia want me at one of her shows? I don't know. The music isn't for me.
As you mentioned yesterday with Mobb Deep, there have been plenty of hip hop artists who have intimated that they look out at their crowds to find a sea of white men and feel their careers took a wrong turn. Vince Staples is one of the major examples. It's kind of the same thing with this, only that was never the goal to begin with.
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It took those ratings for you to decide my taste is highly questionable? Geez man, took you a while.
Anyway, Atom Heart Mother is clearly superior to Obscured By Clouds. At least people sometimes talk about OBC - and usually in this very context, as an unheralded gem. AHM? Crickets, most of the time.
I wasn't going to wade into this discussion, but at gigs she does the "girls to the front" thing. I totally get where that is coming from. But it's the sort of non-intersectional feminism that ends up being really exclusionary. Most of you know I'm legally blind; I make a point of getting to gigs early so that I'm up the front and can see. If you're going to send me to the back because I've got a schlong, honestly I might as well have not even come.
Like I say, I definitely see why they're trying to encourage more women to come to the front. I've been to more than enough shows where big beefy dudes have hogged the front row, or shown up late and shoved people out of their way. Even smaller guys know all about this. I'm short. I've been physically pulled off the rail by super-entitled douchebags, crushed against stages by them as they try to demand the guitarist's attention or shout into the mic, been used as an unwitting ladder for their stage invasions and crowd surfing, etc. But the solution is not to insist every dude go to the back. I've seen a few other bands at least extend it out to asking women and non-binary people to come up the front, so I've just hung around awkwardly as if I don't identify as a cis bloke. But how is the solution for me to pretend I'm someone I'm not just so that I can see at a gig where I've made the effort to get an appropriate spot?
cobl04
45:33
I imagine if you took that up with them they'd be okay with it.
DaveC
Blue Crack Addict
i disagree that people talk less about atom heart mother but i do agree that it is also underrated (and i had a feeling that's what you were going to go for). personally i find the AHM suite to be about five minutes too long. if, summer 68, and fat old sun are absolutely some of their best, no argument there. but then you have alan's psychedelic breakfast which to me is much more of an ummagumma song, ie a step backwards (the narrow way excepted - the guitar on that track is brilliant).
but those three amazing songs in the middle are easily matched by burning bridges, wot's uh the deal, gold it's in the, childhood's end, and stay. there's more tracks of that quality on OBC than AHM and nothing in the clunker category like i said before.
atom heart mother is good but it feels like the band is still a work in progress at that point, still trying to figure out how to merge their talent at creating long instrumental suites with shorter more lyrical songs into a consistently strong album. i don't think it's too crazy to say that they mostly figured that formula out on meddle and that OBC is a refinement of that (and the dark side/wywh/animals period being the epitome of it). nick mason's book essentially says as much, that recording AHM was a difficult period for them all personally and professionally and the work suffered a bit as a result.
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LemonMelon
More 5G Than Man
I'm totally fine with having women in the front, and I think it absolutely should be encouraged by the artist. Height likely won't be an issue and Vik types can fuck off.
Not sure about having it as a policy to be enforced though.
Not sure about having it as a policy to be enforced though.
It's still super awkward. Like, who wants to be obviously the one exception? I feel pretty fucking obvious at gigs already, no need to be further singled out.
Luckily, the one show I've attended where Georgia got really militant about it, it was when they were playing on the side stage at the Corner and I was guarding my spot at the main stage for Pity Sex (who, to my great disappointment, had lost their best member - the woman singer/guitarist - literally a couple of weeks before the gig and I didn't know, so I was very confused when the curtains opened).
I get this, but... to be honest I've never rated OBC that highly myself (I can't recall any melodies off the top of my head right now). It's always been one of those albums that's simply there for me. Meanwhile, the run of If/Summer '68/Fat Old Sun is my favourite on any Pink Floyd album not called Animals (though if the first half of SOYCD, Have a Cigar, and WYWH were in that order, it'd win). The other two songs could not exist and I'd rate AHM no lower. I'd probably be calling it the best EP of all time or something. Summer '68 is my second-favourite PF song, so.
intedomine
Rock n' Roll Doggie FOB
Cracked it a couple of weeks ago at the War on Drugs gig. I'm not tall and some beefy blokes who wasted the night by consuming overpriced alcohol pushed their way in front of me, talked through the whole gig and started violently bouncing about during some of the more explosive moments in the set.
Started fantasising a venue set up where 1/3 of the floor would be open to anyone who wanted their position to the stage to be non-negotiably determined by height, (the catch being that if you were with others, you couldn't stand with them as that would throw the height arrangement out of whack). The other 2/3 would just be regular GA.
Would never happen as imagine the policing involved, but as someone a little shorter, it would be such a treat.
But I've often wondered about the experience of women at gigs and how their enjoyment levels (or potential) is compromised by various elements such as height, physically rowdy men and other elements that must surely bring them to question whether the experience (at some shows anyway) is even worth the effort?
Started fantasising a venue set up where 1/3 of the floor would be open to anyone who wanted their position to the stage to be non-negotiably determined by height, (the catch being that if you were with others, you couldn't stand with them as that would throw the height arrangement out of whack). The other 2/3 would just be regular GA.
Would never happen as imagine the policing involved, but as someone a little shorter, it would be such a treat.
But I've often wondered about the experience of women at gigs and how their enjoyment levels (or potential) is compromised by various elements such as height, physically rowdy men and other elements that must surely bring them to question whether the experience (at some shows anyway) is even worth the effort?
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I'm about 6 foot tall, but not very heavy, so anyone slightly knocking into me will cause me to move more than you might think. I know you can't expect a bubble around you, but the worst is people who repeatedly get too close / make contact as if you're not even there.
HeartlandGirl
Rock n' Roll Doggie ALL ACCESS
I'm 5'1". I've given up on the idea of being able to see the artists at shows where it's GA only, even in smaller venues. Everyone is taller than me. There have been a few exceptions where I've been on the rail, but usually, I can't see shit.
PhilsFan
Blue Crack Addict
I generally like to stay at the back of GAs because it's easier to go grab a beer, and there's usually a bit more room to move around. I'm 5-foot-8, I'm not going to have a great look anywhere in a GA situation.
LemonMelon
More 5G Than Man
I'm 5'8 as well and tend towards either the soundboard or the sides, particularly whichever one is further from the entrance.
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