Oodnadatta, South Australia Superthread

[cobl04]

Did all the Jews leave Palestine in that time? Are there now Jews fighting with Jews or are Palestinians not considered Jewish? #allprettynewtome #pleaseforgivemyignorance

 

[Vlad n U 2]

I've rediscovered the fun of Audacity, managing to make a track including the sounds of my fridge and my toilet. Fun stuff.

Are there now Jews fighting with Jews or are Palestinians not considered Jewish? #allprettynewtome #pleaseforgivemyignorance

I think there are Palestinian Jews and Christians, yeah.

 

[djerdap]

I'll get to this properly tomorrow, but it involves Arabs because Palestinians are Arabs, in the same way Germans are Europeans.

Nice recap Ax, the only think I kinda disagree here is that I don't think this analogy fits. There is still some discussion whether Arabs could or should be considered as one ethnic and linguistic group (as opposed to "pan-ethnic"). Palestinians speak the same language as the people in Morocco or Tunisia, albeit with a notably different dialect that is not mutually intelligible with the Moroccan dialect for instance, which is why a modern standard form of Arabic should be used in this case. I guess an analogy could be made with the German language, where people from Berlin wouldn't understand shit what people in southern Vorarlberg would say in their own dialect.

Germans are Europeans in the geographical sense that Germany is - gasp - in Europe (the continent) and presents an important aspect of European/Western culture. But ethnically, linguistically and to an extent culturally, they are completely different than the Portuguese, Macedonians or Albanians, who are all Europeans.

Basically, Palestinians are Arabs as much as Croatians are Southern Slavs.

Spoiler

Although there could be actually tons of discussion being made about that analogy as well.

 

[djerdap]

Did all the Jews leave Palestine in that time? Are there now Jews fighting with Jews or are Palestinians not considered Jewish? #allprettynewtome #pleaseforgivemyignorance

They were leaving over periods of hundreds and thousands of years, but they were never fully gone. I think there were about 70,000 Jewish people before World War II on the territory of Palestine. There are some very notable Palestinian Christians (Edward Said for one). A Palestinian Jew could be considered de facto an Israeli today, although I'm pretty sure such a description would be quite controversial in Israel. There were some Jews who have defined themselves as anti-Zionist who have adopted the "Palestinian Jew" emblem.

 

[Axver]

djerdap's point is well taken, though I think the analogy holds enough to convey the general point to Cobbler of how Palestinians fit into the Arab world.

Thanks heaps, man. I'm still a little murky over the history before the 19th century - why were the Jews not in their homeland of Palestine? - but I've got a better grasp on it now. So what it boils down to currently is a battle over who has what land in the area - Israelites or Palestinians? Where do you stand on the issue?

Liam's sentence was pretty good. The Jews are actually a remarkable example of a small minority surviving for millennia with an independent identity rather than being absorbed by a conqueror and disappearing. They have historically been weak - ancient Israelite states had little more than local geopolitical significance and were over-run repeatedly by conquerors and sometimes exiled. Other weak peoples from the region in ancient times no longer exist, having been completely absorbed by neighbours/conquerors. When was the last time you met a Hittite?

By the end of the Medieval period, the Jewish diaspora was scattered around Asia Minor and the Mediterranean and spreading into Eastern Europe and Russia. They are historically a mobile people, and often filled specific niches in their host societies. For example, they have performed jobs - often to do with banking - that have been considered prohibited, immoral, or undesirable for other religious groups to do (hence certain Jewish stereotypes). Since the Islamic conquests of the seventh century and the later rise of the Ottoman Empire, the people living in Palestine were culturally and linguistically absorbed into the Arab/Islamic world apart from a few small millets - non-Muslim religious groups including the few remaining Jews.

The Ottoman Empire was fairly advanced for its time by comparison with some of the distasteful persecutions in Western Europe, not forcing conversion of non-Muslim peoples; each millet was allowed a wide degree of internal autonomy to rule their own communities, though they endured higher taxation. Hence the survival of a small Jewish community in Palestine despite the predominance of the Arab community. By the end of the late nineteenth century, a specific Palestinian nationality was asserted in line with the rise of other forms of nationalism throughout the disintegrating Ottoman Empire (the "sick man of Europe"). At least some of this assertion was tied to a response to the influx of Zionist Jews immediately before and after WWI.

Oh, and before you ask, the terminology for the area is complicated. The post-1948 country is Israel. The region of the Roman and later Ottoman Empires is Palestine (and the usage in that context is uncontroversial, even when referring to areas now acknowledged to be Israeli). The ancient Jewish people were the Israelites, not Israelis. The wider area, encompassing Israel and neighbouring states such as Syria and Lebanon, has been known as the Levant, with varying boundaries and usages over time and within communities/disciplines.

And where do I stand? The more I've studied the Arab-Israeli conflict, the more I've just thrown up my hands in despair at there ever being a workable solution, since neither side seems willing to work together or live together. To me, a single state where Israelis, Palestinians, and other citizens are equal and live together harmoniously would be much better than drawing borders and enforcing divisions, but that's just not achievable in the current climate. I think for now a two-state solution is the way to go, even though it's polarising and not ideal.

 

[Reggo]

There's an old joke I read somewhere:

"I have an idea for Jerusalem, a time share. Christians can have it for Easter and Christmas, Jews can use it for Hanukkah and Passover and the Muslims can have it for Ramadan and their other holiday, Ka-Boom."

 

[cobl04]

Thanks

I wish we learnt this stuff in school. Or I took history.

 

[Axver]

The university subjects I took on the Arab-Israeli conflict were some of the most rewarding I took - both in terms of understanding a pivotal and long-running global conflict, and in expanding my intellectual horizons and conceptualisation of history. No other courses more thoroughly taught me that "the more you know, the more you realise you don't know" or to appreciate the ways in which history can be used/abused to justify pretty much anything or to come to accept the uncertainties that result from good historical inquiry. It helped that for most of those courses, I had one of the best tutors ever (bizarrely enough, it turns out he's a lifelong friend of one of the guys with whom I now share an office).

 

[cobl04]

"the more you know, the more you realise you don't know"

if there's one thing that has rung true for me in the past two years, the time I've actually begun to take an interest in issues, it is this. Spot fucking on. I feel more informed than ever and yet I feel like I know nothing and am embarrassingly ignorant.

 

[bono_212]

We covered this topic pretty extensively in my current events course in high school.

 

[Axver]

If there is one thing that the US schooling system seems to do much better than the schooling systems of Australia and New Zealand, it is teaching history/civics/politics. Admittedly that generally seems to have a very insular US focus, but it still kicks the shit out of the fact people can graduate high school here without having learnt a minute of Australian or New Zealand history. The way the curriculum is currently structured means that's actually the norm. I can find you well-educated New Zealanders with university degrees right now who don't know when the Treaty of Waitangi was signed or who New Zealand's first Prime Minister was. Meanwhile the US pretty much faps over the equivalents, the Declaration of Independence and the first President. If New Zealand loved its past that much, I might have a better job market in front of me!

(The answers, by the way, are 6 February 1840 and Henry Sewell. Sewell served for thirteen days. So did his successor, William Fox. New Zealand, uh, wasn't big on stable governments.)

 

[Reggo]

That's OK, we had a president who was only president for, like, a month. This dufus Harrison insisted on giving a very long outdoor speech in a blinding snowstorm, caught pneumonia and died. His successor finished out his term and is generally considered a dick.

 

[Vlad n U 2]

https://soundcloud.com/existential-disco

Definitely advancing the genre of domestic industrial here.

 

[bono_212]

That's OK, we had a president who was only president for, like, a month. This dufus Harrison insisted on giving a very long outdoor speech in a blinding snowstorm, caught pneumonia and died. His successor finished out his term and is generally considered a dick.

Indiana's finest.

 

[Axver]

That's OK, we had a president who was only president for, like, a month. This dufus Harrison insisted on giving a very long outdoor speech in a blinding snowstorm, caught pneumonia and died. His successor finished out his term and is generally considered a dick.

Haha, yeah, that's one of my favourite "died while in office" stories. New Zealand's deaths whilst in office are decidedly unexciting, except for the Superintendent of one of our former provinces who managed to drown while visiting a then poorly explored corner of his province.

Australia, of course, has Harold Holt, the best death(?!?) while in office ever.

https://soundcloud.com/existential-disco

Definitely advancing the genre of domestic industrial here.

To think Charlotte won't let me make classics like "Cutlery Invasion".

 

[Vlad n U 2]

To think Charlotte won't let me make classics like "Cutlery Invasion".

She wouldn't let you record the fridge so you can make a bassline out of it?

In all honesty making music using the sounds of household appliances makes me so happy.

 

[Axver]

I've fooled around with the noise created by our stereo when you partially disconnect certain cables. Every time, Charlotte has nearly murdered me.

 

[Reggo]

I got a tweet from RiffTrax!!!

 

[Alisaura]

Australia, of course, has Harold Holt, the best death(?!?) while in office ever.

I drove past the famous Harold Holt Memorial Swimming Pool a couple of weeks ago.

 

[Reggo]

One of you MUST take a picture of this.

 

[bono_212]

Just for the record, far a I know, the pneumonia caused by the speech aspect of the story is an urban legend, but fun times.

 

[Axver]

Wikipedia informs us:

On March 26, Harrison became ill with a cold. According to the prevailing medical misconception of that time, it was believed that his illness was directly caused by the bad weather at his inauguration; however, Harrison's illness did not arise until more than three weeks after the event.

Damn facts ruining a good story.

 

[bono_212]

He's still an embarrassment

 

[Axver]

OK, so I just heard a song.

A song so bad it makes Brokencyde look like they have compositional talent.

Seriously, read my review and brave this shit on YouTube if you dare: Axver's music - Rate Your Music

(I'm still laughing. So fucking bad it's hilarious.)

 

[LemonMelon]

Axver, have you heard this? Because you need to. Right now.

Dancing to Restore an Eclipsed Moon by Red Temple Spirits : Reviews and Ratings - Rate Your Music

It's early Cure (that chorus-drenched bass is on every song) meets psych rock meets atmospheric black metoohhaaall

And it's SO GOOD

And they cover the fucking Nile Song for some reason

And it's PRETTY GOOD

 

[cobl04]

OK, so I just heard a song.

A song so bad it makes Brokencyde look like they have compositional talent.

Seriously, read my review and brave this shit on YouTube if you dare: Axver's music - Rate Your Music

(I'm still laughing. So fucking bad it's hilarious.)

1:17. Jesus.

 

[cobl04]

You know what... I get annoyed by left-leaning media asking Bob Katter about homosexuality. It's like asking a dog for help with your calculus homework. He does great work in his community.

 

[Axver]

Axver, have you heard this? Because you need to. Right now.

Dancing to Restore an Eclipsed Moon by Red Temple Spirits : Reviews and Ratings - Rate Your Music

It's early Cure (that chorus-drenched bass is on every song) meets psych rock meets atmospheric black metoohhaaall

And it's SO GOOD

And they cover the fucking Nile Song for some reason

And it's PRETTY GOOD

Why was this not yet in my life! Getting onto it right now.

You know what... I get annoyed by left-leaning media asking Bob Katter about homosexuality. It's like asking a dog for help with your calculus homework. He does great work in his community.

Ha ha that's a real knee slapper right there, Cobbler!

 

[Reggo]

The Tiges released their official team photos today

/fangirl

Carn Richmond!

 

[Vlad n U 2]

How's Ivan's mullet looking?