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Old 02-16-2005, 01:23 AM   #451
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So Arsenal are in trouble for having an entire foreign squad for the match against Palace on Monday night.
Wenger said he didnt even realise that until being told about it, and I genuinly believe him!
There's probably been dozens of times in the last few seasons, where a team has fielded 11 players, with only 1 of them being British, but now that the 0 figure has appeared, UEFA are looking into it.
I've never been too fussed about this really, tho I wouldnt want to see it every week...but I wouldnt like to see UEFA step in with a 'restricted number of foreign players' rule either.
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Old 02-16-2005, 02:00 AM   #452
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You know, as a manager of a club side, your not really concerned how it affects the national side. If for example, i am manager of Arsenal, I am going to pick the best team that will win the game, regardless of nationality. Cole and Campbell would normally have played except they are injured.

English players, by and large, are over priced and demand too high a salary. Arsenal cannot afford to spend £20 million on a player like Rooney or Robben etc that Chelsea and Man U can. Any player that is English and is good enough, will make it. If they are not good enough but because you have not got enough English players, does that mean you have to play them even though you have a better foreign player on the bench?

The main point though is that you can get a great player from France for example, with the same ability as an English player but will cost half the money. For clubs like Man U and Chelsea, money is not a problem. For other clubs it is, therefore you have to get the best for your money, even if it means playing 11 foreigners...
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Old 02-16-2005, 03:53 AM   #453
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Originally posted by Party Boy
The main point though is that you can get a great player from France for example, with the same ability as an English player but will cost half the money. For clubs like Man U and Chelsea, money is not a problem. For other clubs it is, therefore you have to get the best for your money, even if it means playing 11 foreigners...
Good post
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Old 02-16-2005, 07:57 AM   #454
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Freddy Adu what a player agree?
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Old 02-16-2005, 09:49 AM   #455
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Freddy Adu.. is this the american bloke or is it the brazillian guy who is like, aged 14 or something but lots of clubs want him?
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Old 02-16-2005, 11:03 AM   #456
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I don't take the point about Arsenal having enough money to buy English, how much was Jose Ryes? 17 Million give or take.
Look at what was spent on Wiltord and I don't believe for a second you couldn't have got a player of equal quality for that price.
This summer Alan Smith went for a very reasonable price, as did Danny Murphy, Nicky Butt, Emile Heskey and previously Danny Mills went cheap and Paul Robinson went for next to nothing this summer. Arsenal didn't exactly pull out all the stops to buy Owen either.
No one wanted to buy Gareth Southgate a couple of seasons ago so I don't believe it's a simple cost thing however much foreign coaches tell us it is.
So you can't buy a Beckham, a Gerrard or a Ferdinand on the cheap but players like Henry and Viera are once in a lifetime buys as well and won't change clubs for spare change.
Wenger is lazy and has good contacts in Europe that's it.
Arsenal have also let some very good young English players go on the cheap Steve Sidwell isn't going to be playing in the Championship much longer and I believe Wenger let Upson go for about the same money as he paid for Pascal Cygan.
Are you honestly telling me that Cygan is better than Upson.
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Old 02-16-2005, 11:23 AM   #457
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I take your point about Upson over Cygan. But you know, Upson was at Arsenal for 4 years or so and had enough chances. Injury probably didn't help. Cygan, I take your point, is crap. Not suited to English game. Interestingly though, Cygan was French player of the year when we bought him.

Regarding Steve Sidwell, he has been at Reading - 2/3 seasons now. If he will make it at top level then I will admit i am wrong. However, I dont think he will. He is a great player at Championship level, not Premiership level. If he was a cut above the rest then he would have been bought a long time ago by a Premiership club.

The players you mentioned - Danny Murphy, Nicky Butt, Emile Heskey and Danny Mills are NOT top of the Premiership quality. Most of these have played at the top level and have been found wanting. If Murphy is not good enough for Liverpool, what makes you think he is good enough for Arsenal?

Gareth Southgate, great defender, however his age is restrictive. It would have been a short term solution rather than long-term.

Regarding Wenger been lazy. Not a chance. Arsenal have one of the best, if not the best, scouting networks in the UK and across Europe. Arsenal have been producing young English players for the past 5 years - look at the lower leagues and you will see lots of names - Rohan Ricketts at Spurs, Jerome Thomas at Charlton, Richard Hughes at Portsmouth, Julian Gray at Birmingham, Stephen Hughes at Coventry, Tommy Black at Palace and so on. A lot of these players critisised Wenger because they werent given a chance. A lot of these players have since been found out not to be good enough to take the place of Pires, Vieira, Edu, Ljundberg etc. Why play inferior players when you can play better foreign ones?

Wiltord was not that popular at Arsenal but he did a great job and was vastly underated by a lot of non-Arsenal and some Arsenal fans. He was not a flop - scored something like 40 goals in 3 or so seasons and scored the winner when we won the league in Mancheser.

Where would Alan Smith fit in Arsenals team? Its ok buying good English players, but unless they fit into the system of the team, then whats the point? Alan Smith is a good player. He is not better than Henry or Reyes though. Speaking of Reyes, this often quoted 17 million figure is conditional on Arsenal winning the Champions League a number of times, winning the league a number of times and so on. The actual figure we will probably pay is around 11 million. If we do have to pay the full £17 million then great - it means we will have made a lot of money while winning a lot of trophies and it would also mean Reyes would have been a bargain!

Why do you think Henry and Vieira are once in a lifetime bargains? We have already bought Fabregas, Toure, Flamini, Clichy, Van Persie, Lupoli and countless other top European talent that will cost a fortune in years to come. Fabregas only turned 17 and is much better than Vieira was at his age. This guy is a star in the making.

At the end of the day, if English players are good enough then they will make it through - Ashley Cole is a good example of this. If they are not, they will earn a good living at a lower level (like Jerome thomas and Julian Gray are for Charlton & Birmingham respectively). All the players Wenger has let go have NOT come back to haunt him.
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Old 02-16-2005, 11:36 AM   #458
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Freddy Adu is 16 and plays for the MLS team DC United.

That Brazilian kid who is what 9 is impressive.
http://www.bercasio.com/football/jean_carlos.wmv.htm
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Old 02-16-2005, 11:45 AM   #459
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^ man utd want the 9 year old I think
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Old 02-16-2005, 12:42 PM   #460
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I take your point about Upson over Cygan. But you know, Upson was at Arsenal for 4 years or so and had enough chances. Injury probably didn't help. Cygan, I take your point, is crap. Not suited to English game. Interestingly though, Cygan was French player of the year when we bought him.

Regarding Steve Sidwell, he has been at Reading - 2/3 seasons now. If he will make it at top level then I will admit i am wrong. However, I dont think he will. He is a great player at Championship level, not Premiership level. If he was a cut above the rest then he would have been bought a long time ago by a Premiership club.

The players you mentioned - Danny Murphy, Nicky Butt, Emile Heskey and Danny Mills are NOT top of the Premiership quality. Most of these have played at the top level and have been found wanting. If Murphy is not good enough for Liverpool, what makes you think he is good enough for Arsenal?

Gareth Southgate, great defender, however his age is restrictive. It would have been a short term solution rather than long-term.

Regarding Wenger been lazy. Not a chance. Arsenal have one of the best, if not the best, scouting networks in the UK and across Europe. Arsenal have been producing young English players for the past 5 years - look at the lower leagues and you will see lots of names - Rohan Ricketts at Spurs, Jerome Thomas at Charlton, Richard Hughes at Portsmouth, Julian Gray at Birmingham, Stephen Hughes at Coventry, Tommy Black at Palace and so on. A lot of these players critisised Wenger because they werent given a chance. A lot of these players have since been found out not to be good enough to take the place of Pires, Vieira, Edu, Ljundberg etc. Why play inferior players when you can play better foreign ones?

Wiltord was not that popular at Arsenal but he did a great job and was vastly underated by a lot of non-Arsenal and some Arsenal fans. He was not a flop - scored something like 40 goals in 3 or so seasons and scored the winner when we won the league in Mancheser.

Where would Alan Smith fit in Arsenals team? Its ok buying good English players, but unless they fit into the system of the team, then whats the point? Alan Smith is a good player. He is not better than Henry or Reyes though. Speaking of Reyes, this often quoted 17 million figure is conditional on Arsenal winning the Champions League a number of times, winning the league a number of times and so on. The actual figure we will probably pay is around 11 million. If we do have to pay the full £17 million then great - it means we will have made a lot of money while winning a lot of trophies and it would also mean Reyes would have been a bargain!

Why do you think Henry and Vieira are once in a lifetime bargains? We have already bought Fabregas, Toure, Flamini, Clichy, Van Persie, Lupoli and countless other top European talent that will cost a fortune in years to come. Fabregas only turned 17 and is much better than Vieira was at his age. This guy is a star in the making.

At the end of the day, if English players are good enough then they will make it through - Ashley Cole is a good example of this. If they are not, they will earn a good living at a lower level (like Jerome thomas and Julian Gray are for Charlton & Birmingham respectively). All the players Wenger has let go have NOT come back to haunt him.
Right let's take this point by point. Upson was never ever given a decent chance, he finally broke into the first team and then got injured. Some might be sympathetic about this however he just got completely forgotten about and was farmed out on loan to Reading and did incredibly well. Now I know that it's not quite Premier League football but if I remeber rightly they kept eight successive clean sheets before he went back. Now Wenger could have taken notice of this and given him another chance, he didn't he sold him because it was easier than taking a chance on him or making the effort to keep him happy. Awards aside Cygan is absolute garbage but I believe there has been some revisionism taking part over him recently as with Campbell's return everyone has realised that Toure really isn't that good either.

Sidwell, he has had interest from Premiership Clubs last year especially at the end of last season however he has said he wanted to go up with Reading, this is looking increasingly unlikely so I think he might be off this summer, so we'll see. I have taken people to Reading and it has been quite obvious to us that he is playing with people of a lower ability. Also we can not argue that facilities and conditions are better at Arsenal than Reading so I don't think it is a fair comparison to compare him now with how he would be if he had stayed and been given a chance.

You gave a lot of names and I think this reinforces the point, something is going terribly wrong. Arsenal are (and have been for the last fifteen years) an incredible draw to a young player and are the biggest club in London. The pool of talent they could have access to is enormous - there are very few young English players that they coundn't get at a young age. How many of these players have made it? One Ashley Cole, Sol Campbell was nicked from the neighbours, surely something is wrong.

Even his most ardent fan couldn't argue Wiltord represented value for money. He was bought as a first choice £11 million pound, striker and became a bench warming, free transfer, winger. For that money 40 goals in three years is absolutely nothing.

Even at £11 million Reyes doen't look good value, that's the same money as Robben and I don't believe that you will recoup much of that when he departs in the summer. Smith would be as good a partner for Henry as he would for Van Horse Face. £11 Million could also have bought you Wright-Phillips.

Murphy took a while to settle but is doing well now and Heskey has been superb in recent weeks. Danny Mills I don't think is a player inferior to Arsenal's current right back and given how dirty he is would fit in incredibly well. I notice that there is no argument about Owen.

Henry and Viera's are increasingly looking like once in a lifetimes there has been plenty of players at Arsenal who looked like they'd reach that level but never quite got there. Fabregas has also faded very much in recent months and looks like he has been found out.

I don't think Wenger will be around long enough for these players to come back to haunt him.
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Old 02-16-2005, 02:30 PM   #461
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Ok, am going to go through your reply point by point - I pretty much disagree with everything you said, and heres why:

Firstly, before I go through each point, Arsenal is building a new stadium which is costing £300million. Obviously that has a knock on affect on everything the club does including who it can buy and what players it can afford to buy. Wenger for example, watched Reyes something like 65 times before he bought him.

Anyway, back to your points:

Upson was given plenty of chances. The problem was that he could not stay fit long enough. Two broken legs, cruciate ligament damage etc. Bad luck sure, but it just wasnt to be. Btw, he is not England quality. If you think he is anywhere near the likes of Terry, Campbell or Ferdinand, then your wrong. Your right, Championship football is no where near Premier league. Why do you think the 3 teams who got promoted last year occupy 3 of the bottom 4 positions? Cygan has no pace - maybe suits European football rather than English. As for Toure, man, you clearly havent been watching Toure at all. Last season was his first as centre back. This season, our goalkeeper situation has affected the whole back line. Campbell has missed half the season which hasnt helped either. A great player last season does not turn into a bad one this season.

As for Sidwell - I will be very surprised if he makes a move to a premiership club. Even if he does, do you seriously think he is good enough to hold the midfield of an Arsenal, equally a Man U, Chelsea etc. Because that is the level we are looking at. If you don't, why do you think Wenger sold him?? He is not good enough for Arsenal. Maybe for a Bolton or a West Brom etc, but not for Arsenal. Equally not for Chelsea or Man U. And that is the whole point of this arguement. You need to be in the top 1% to get into the midfield of these clubs. Sidwell is not in that 1%.
Facilites have nothing to do with it. If your good enough it doesnt matter if he plays on manicured grass or on a rubbish dump. Brazil produce countless great players who learn to play on the beaches, with no facilities.

Your third point, I dont know if your argueing with me or yourself. What is going terribly wrong at Arsenal? If the talent is there, it is given a chance. If the talent is not good enough, they move onto lesser clubs. You seem to think Arsenal have not given chances to worldclass players. I'll happily listen to names of players who you feel are good enough to play for the Arsenals, Chelseas and Man Utds of the world who were not given a chance by Wenger? Its hard isnt it? Not one player that Wenger has let go without giving a chance to would be classified as a world class player. A club can only work with whats available. Arsenal under 18 and youth team has, out of a squad of 30 players got 15 english players. So, i dont think the club is doing too badly in that area. When wenger took over, the youth system was a mess - Graham and Rioch had done nothing with it for years. The facilities were a joke, so Wenger had to completely start again from the very foundations up.

Wiltord was bought when the transfer market was completely inflatd. Every club has payed over the odds - Man U 28 million for Veron?? How much for Ferdinand? How much for Rooney? Chelsea - 25 million for Drogba? How much for Veron? How much for Crespo? You'll find it was a hell of a lot more than both Wiltord and Reyes. What about Parker? 10 million (only one million less than Wiltord) yet he is rotting in the reserves. And he is English.
For your information, Wiltord was never played as a striker, he played right midfield. Hence the return of 40 goals and countless assists is brilliant.

Why is Reyes not looking value for money? He is 21. He was bought for the future, not just for today. He is still developing. He has moved from a closeknit family in Spain to a strange cold city where he didnt even speak the language. So he has struggled somewhat. Pires did for his first season. Yet Reyes has scored 10 goals this season. Isnt that a few more than Robben?? Have you ever seen Reyes play before he signed for Arsenal? When he played for Seville he was amazing. Single handedly destroyed Real Madrid early last season.
Why would Smith be a good player for Henry? Arsenal doesnt play with a striker who holds the ball up, Smith would slow up our play instead of help it along. Players Arsenal sign have a couple of attributes - they are fast, they play the ball with one or two touches at most and they are comfortable with both feet. Smith does not fit any of these categories.

And 11 million for Wright Philips? Where did you get that figure from? Thats the problem with English football - Man City recently quoted £25 million for Wright Philips - you can get a much better player like Luque or Torres for that money who would wipe the floor with Wright Philips.

As for Murphy and Danny Mills. This did make me laugh. Oh and Heskey. So basically, your saying Murphy, Mills and Heskey are good enough to play for the likes of Arsenal - and by association, Chelsea and Man Utd, but not good enough to play for Liverpool who were happy to sell them? Am having difficulty trying to understand your point. They are not top level players. If they were, they would play for england all the time. Who would Murphy take the place of in the Arsenal team?

As for Mills - Lauren was voted right back in the team of the year in England for past two years. Voted by fellow professionals. Am sure they know a thing or two.

Oh, btw, Arsenal won the fair play league last year and are leading it again this year. Seems like you have blinkers of some kind on as your making wild statements that have no fact!

As for Owen, the only reason he left liverpool was to go to another country. If he wanted to stay in the English league, he would not have left Liverpool.

Let me think - what other clubs have found players like Vieira for next to nothing? Thats right - none. Similarly, Edu, Toure, Sendoros, Anelka, Petit and so on. Fabregas is 17. If you know anything about football, you will know 17 year olds playing in professional football get exhausted after awhile. Am interested, looks like he has been found out? Where? when? When Arsenal played Chelsea, both Fabregas and Flamini played in midfield and controlled the game. Again, what facts have you got to state fabregas has been found out??? crazy!!

As for your last comment about Wenger, you dont think he will be around?? Again, based on what? Fact or some sort of tabloid intuition you have got? He has a contract till 2007 when we move into our new stadium.

Its pointless saying random thinks like you think Wenger wont be around or Fabregas has been found out without any facts. It means I could come out with a load of garbage based on nothing but what I think.
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Old 02-16-2005, 02:54 PM   #462
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Freddy Adu is 16 and plays for the MLS team DC United.

That Brazilian kid who is what 9 is impressive.
http://www.bercasio.com/football/jean_carlos.wmv.htm
Have heard of him - seemingly there is a long line of clubs in Europe interested in him!

How is pro soccer doing in the US at moment? I remember when I lived in Chicago pro soccer was dead but college soccer was huge..
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Old 02-16-2005, 04:20 PM   #463
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Fair enough that you disagree with me but I'm not sure I'm the one with the blinkers on.

Thanks for taking the effort to repond it's fun to do this sort of thing once in a while.

I wasn't arguing that Upson is of Campbell, Terry or Ferdinand quality but the point is that he is much better than anything you've got at the moment or are likely to acquire in the future. He's in the bracket below but there's only a dozen or so Centre backs in the World of that calibre in the bracket above and I can't think of any club (Chelsea included) who have two centre backs at that level. Toure the jury remains out on it's much easier to play well when the whole team is playing well it's much more difficult when the team's going through a rough spell. Toure like Cygan has to rely on Campbell to clear up a lot of his mistakes.

If Arsenal have a substantial network of scouts in this country I'd be asking for my money back.

Sidwell we'll leave, apart from to say that Wenger begged him to stay because he knew he was good enough but allowed him to go because the player was very keen to get first team experience and was sensible enough to realise he wasn't going to get it at Arsenal. He was also the Championship's outstanding player before Christmas.

The comment about the Championship I think is a touch unfair and I would argue the football is of a higher quality than the top divisions in some of the countries Arsenal recruit their young players. The fact that the former-Championship clubs occupy the relegations places doesn't mean that Rouledge and Johnson haven't been two of the Premierships best performers this season. It also wasn't the case that three out of three went down last season.

The comment about the Brazilians is incredibly unfair and rather patronising I would say but let's leave that one.

You seem to have an obsession that everyone who plays for Arsenal is genuinely World Class, that is far from the case. So Arsenal haven't let go any World Class players. a footballer doesn't have to make you gasp to be a very effective and vital part of the team regardless of how successful you are.

Your argument does seem to smack of taking your ball home England only has a handful of World Class players Arsenal, Man United, Chelsea and Real Madrid each have two of them and Liverpool has one of them. You are not going to get all of them in the same team but you seem to be saying that if an England player isn't a World Class superstar he isn't good enough to play for Arsenal.
Come on. Man United have the two Neville brothers, Brown and Smith in addition to the World Class players, Chelsea have Bridge and Johnson, Liverpool have Carragher and Kirkland and even Real Madrid have Woodgate. Correct me if I'm wrong and I'm sure you will but Arsenal have no English players beyond the superstars, what makes them so special?

No one is arguing about the statistics of your Under 18 team (even if these seem a little scary) but mainly it's what happens between there and the full side. Wenger has had quite a bit of time at the club and I think blaming Graham and Rioch this far on is a bit desperate. As I said in my last post as far as young English players go they just about get their pick of who they want, either they're not taking their pick or they're not developing it well enough.

Chelsea is a false economy on player fees, they get screwed but Crespo was regarded as one of the best forwards in the World at the time and when fit Drogba has been superb. As for Wiltord it would have been an interesting decision if Wenger decided to buy a £13 million midfielder when they needed a striker. He is listed on www.soccerbase.com as a Forward.

I don't claim to be an observer of Spanish football but as for Reyes he is playing like Viera at the moment, like his head is somewhere else. He also failed to make the squad for the European Championships if I'm not mistaken. The value for money issue, if you were to sell him tomorrow would you get what you paid for him? No chance, even at £11 million. He should also be getting better not worse. Robben has eight goals from fewer starts in a season genuinely disrupted by injury in a defensive minded team.

Smith is no slouch and no reason to believe he wouldn't fit in at Arsenal he has two good feet and those that partner Henry up front for Arsenal are hardly prolific goal scorers. This also reveals one of Arsenal's big problems at the moment - there is no Plan B or variation in tactics.

£11 million for Wright-Phillips is about right. Manchester City cannot afford to turn down a bid of this level despite what they say in public as they have absolutely no money and are in an almost Leeds type situation.

We can agree to disagree on Mills and Murphy but I would urge you to cast your mind back to the last World Cup.

Players give awards to the players at big clubs and are in no way a guide as their judgement isn't always the best. As we have seen with Henry's snubbing at the World Player Awards(yes I know managers also get a vote but you see the point). This year Frank Lampard will almost certainly get the PFA award when there is no way it shouldn't be John Terry.

Ask the supporters of any club apart from Arsenal and what they think of their Fair-Play. They get away with loads becasue their players spend ninety minutes following around the referee. Viera is one of dirtiest players ever to have played in the Premiership and commits more cynical fouls than anyone I think I have ever seen. His disciplinary record speaks for itself. Football chants tend to hurt when there's some truth in them and just about every club in the land is happy to sing "Same old Arsenal always cheating."

No one else tried to sign Owen and although Liverpool weren't keen on him going to another English club they weren't in a position to negotiate. I can't remeber the statements exactly but I believe he had sent hints out to Arsenal long before the Madrid move.

Viera is one player. He wasn't free either. Fabregas: if you think he controlled the game against Chelsea, no offense but I think you need help. Arsenal were played off the park and but for some seriously bent refereeing Chelsea would have run out comfortable winners. Where and when was he found out:- 28th November 2004 at Anfield. I went to that game and Alonso made him look so ordinary and out of his depth it wasn't funny, to the extent that it inhibited Veira's game. I appreciate that he is seventeen, we'll see and I hope I'm wrong but he really doesn't look World Class at the moment.

Wenger has stalled on his contract in the past waiting for a better offer that never arrived. You are right this is just opinion but I thought that was the point of a message board but still. The reason I think Wenger will go is because he has been papering over cracks at Arsenal for too long. Arsenal's best player will have to retire at some point even if he does play on next year and then given the way Veira is playing at the moment Arsenal are an incredibly ordinary team who have Henry and Cole. A poor Goalkeeper, two great defenders, an ageing midfield and maybe or maybe not Reyes up front. To sustain the investment on that new Stadium will take enormous success and I don't think those players will have it in them. It will be a third place finish this year and who knows where from there.

The major point has been avoided which is that Arsenal are contributing very little to our national game and should be making more effort to both develop and buy English players.
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Old 02-17-2005, 01:24 AM   #464
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The major point has been avoided which is that Arsenal are contributing very little to our national game and should be making more effort to both develop and buy English players.
Thanks for your response - am not going to respond to all your points again - it looks like we will have to agree do disagree on most of them.

Regarding comment about Brazilian players, i was not intending to be patronising. All i am saying is that if your good enough, the facilities or lack of, should not be a stumbling block.

My main point that i have tried to get across was that the players Arsenal have let go, in nearly all cases, Upson is debatable, are not as good as the players we currently have. Am not denying the likes of Sidwell etc are good players. What I am saying is that they are not good enough to play at the highest level.

Regarding Arsenals contribution to Englands national game. Firstly, from a club level, since Wenger has taken over, the game has been revolutionised. With fitness coachs, dieticians etc, the game has changed 100% in the last 7/8 years.

I'd also like to make a point that if you look at the standard of footballers playing in the first premiership years - you can find these out in the official premier league website - not sure what address it is - not many of them would be at the quality to play in the premier league now. I am not English firstly, secondly, anyone associated with Arsenal or any other club does not really care about the national side or how well England does. Even the England manager and all who run the national side do this - one look at how friendlies are played now - they are complete waste of time.

The general feeling is that club football has moved to a higher level/importance - Champions league is a great competition - some might value it more than say, Euro 2004 etc. International football does not have the prestige it once had. Playing for your country does not have the prestige it once had - how many 1 cap wonders have played for England under Ericsson?

Getting back to original point, if your a manager or own an English club, with the money and finances involved in the game, you cannot afford to sacrifice the good of your club for the health of the national game. Most clubs are trying to keep their heads above water, there are only a few who are actually making money. The list of clubs that are in administration or close to is huge. Leeds is a good example - they bought a lot of players (top English players) for way over the odds. Now look where they are. For the money Leeds spent, they could have bought equal if not better quality abroad for less money.

Do you think the likes of Chelsea, Man U, Liverpool etc really give a toss about the national side and would willingly sacrifice performance levels of their own club if it meant England had a better chance of winning the world cup for example?

I dont think so!!
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Old 02-17-2005, 01:55 AM   #465
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