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Old 02-14-2004, 01:59 PM   #31
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no way should arod have to play 3b in new york if he does go there

jeters defense is awful, and arod is the reigning gold glove champeeen. but it'll never happen since they have to pamper the games most overrated player with every possible benefit that they can give him, jeter should step up and say he'll move to 3b and have some balls.
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Old 02-14-2004, 02:06 PM   #32
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a-rod is deffinetly the better deffensive player... but that's exactly why i'd want him to move over jeter. i think a-rod could adjust to a new position better than jeter.

and as for jeter being over-rated... i agree, statwise he's not close to a-rod or nomar. but you can't over-rate the clutch plays he's made in october. there's no stat for that.
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Old 02-14-2004, 02:20 PM   #33
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i take renteria over jeter, too. gold glove two years in a row, plus he put up better numbers than jeet last year. having a good glove at short is huge.

no stat for his clutchness, no, but that doesn't prevent him from being overrated. and overpaid.

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Old 02-14-2004, 07:13 PM   #34
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Can A-rod pitch? The Yanks lost ALOT of wins w/ Petite/Clemens/Wells leaving. They don't have a lefty starter. This is like having a car w/ a flat tire, and fixing it by rebuilding the engine.
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Old 02-14-2004, 07:55 PM   #35
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the yankees rotation is better than it was last year
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Old 02-14-2004, 08:03 PM   #36
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No way. Lotsa question marks. They fixed the middle relief, but don't have a lefty to replace Pettite or Wells.
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Old 02-14-2004, 08:23 PM   #37
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ill get back to this thread after i eat, no way was last years better
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Old 02-14-2004, 10:22 PM   #38
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ok, time to sound like a total baseball geek


they lose pettitte, clemens, wells.

break it down...(throwing out wins and losses becausei ts the most irrelevent stat this side of saves)

pettitte: 4.02 ERA, 180k/50bb (respectable)/ 7.78 K per9 /.272 BAA/ 1.33 WHIP (walks and hits per innings pitched.)

the .272 BAA is startling, especially considering the fact lefties hit .321 against him. throw out that "lefty" crap, they hammer him better than righties do.

clemens: 3.91 ERA, 198 K/58 BB (good)/8.08 K per 9/ .247 BAA/ 1.21 WHIP

clemens had a good year for his age, but he's only getting worse...


wells: 4.14 ERA, 101 K/ 20 BB (awful K's , but awesome BB) 1.23 WHIP, .286 BAA which is awful.

only getting worse too, and that .286 BAA is wretched. if he had walked even 10 more batters, that ERA floats up a half a point.

take those three, and compare them to...


Javier Vazquez: 3.24 ERA, 241 K/ 57 BB (awesome) / 9.40 K per 9 (also awesome)/ .229 BAA, 1.11 WHIP (terrific)

probably the most underrated pitcher in baseball, i for one expect him to contend if not win the al cy young this year.

Kevin Brown: 2.39 ERA, 185 K/ 56 BB (solid)/ 7.89 K per 9/ 1.14 WHIP/ .236 BAA

finally stayed healthy, younger than clemens and wells, so i dont want to hear the age crap.

and Jon Lieber, who had a increasingly good 3 year trend going from 4.4 - 3.8- 3.7 ERA in his last 3 years before he got hurt.

adding those 3 in place of pettite, clemens and wells makes the yankees rotation 10 times better than it was last year. 3 legit aces in vazquez / mussina / brown. contreras will have a good year, if you look at how he did as a SP last year, he was phenominal. 57.2 IP as a starter, 2.34 ERA, 57 K, 19 BB, and an obscene .184 BAA.

that rotation is flat out awesome. it doesnt matter who the fifth starter is.

then you add quantrill, flash gordon to the pen... gary sheffield , kenny lofton, travis lee, alex rodriguez...
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Old 02-14-2004, 11:06 PM   #39
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Um, Ok, you know your shit BUT they lost 3 playoff tested veteran pitchers (2 lefties) and added Brown who is fragile and a cancer in the club house, and Vazquez and Leiber who are around 500 career pitchers, pitching in NY for the first time. Weaver was supposed to be great, put he couldn't handle the NY pressure. No doubt these guys could be good, but it is still a question. Clemens/Pettite/Wells were alredy proven.
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Old 02-14-2004, 11:16 PM   #40
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vazquez is only a 500 pitcher because hes played for montreal

wins and losses have no bearing on how good a pitcher is, just how well an offense performs around him.

they lose two lefties, but the lefties werent effective against lefties, so that point is moot.

Weaver is a lot different than Vazquez. Vazquez is a legitmiate ace, weaver had half of a good year.

i also think baseball chemistry is entirely overrated, thats more of a football thing. clemens and pettitte were best friends though, so i guess they might lose a little in the clubhouse.

then of course you go over their offensive additions... lofton, sheffield, arod it seems, travis lee.... lofton/jeter/arod/giambi/sheffield/posada/matsui/williams/cairo ? errr
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Old 02-14-2004, 11:23 PM   #41
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I don't know about wins not mattering. I've never seen a pitcher w/ 5 wins get the Cy Young. To say all wins are just a reflection of the offence is like saying HRs don't matter, they just show how poor the pitching is.
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Old 02-14-2004, 11:29 PM   #42
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right, and you never will see a pitcher with 5 wins get a cy young, because wins are eye candy.

i dont see the HR comparision, Hr's are an individual achievement, unlike a win.

OPS is the best tool to judge a non-leadoff hitter by anyway
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Old 02-14-2004, 11:41 PM   #43
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the yankees pitching staff COULD be better than last year's IF all works out. note the emphasis on the COULD and the IF.

brown, vasquez & lieber on paper look just as good as clemens, pettitte & wells, if not better and deffinetly younger...

but... and that's a BIG but... brown and lieber have injury problems, vasquez has pitched only in the baseball siberia that is montreal... who knows if he can handle the fishbowl that is pitching in new york. and the most important but is the post season factor. brown pitched well for the marlins in the world series, and mediocre for the padres. overall, the combined experience of brown, pettitte and leiber does not come close to the post season experience of andy pettite alone, let alone pettite, clemens and boomer.

the lineup is also an if... chemestry is never over-rated. joe torre could've slept through his first years as yankee manager. he baisicly did. that team ran themselves. sheffield, brown & lofton have been known to be problems in the clubhouse in the past. giambi's a follower, not a leader. jeter has developed into one of the best leaders in all of sports... but he also has a considerable ego. who wouldn't in his position? even with a-rod going to third, you still have to have a few concerns on if jeter will be jelous by being replaced by a new golden boy who's a better player and just as popular with the chicks.

the yankees of the late 80s and early 90s were a joke. steinbrenner put together those teams by buying the biggest names possiable, and it just did not work. there was no chemestry amongst the players. the clubhouse earned the nickname "the bronx zoo." this collection of stars could go either way... they could run away with it all and win another world series, or if the pitching goes they could implode and be one of the biggest disapointments in recent sports history.

then again... you can make the same arguments for the red sox. schilling had injury problems for the first time last year, a lot of guys had career years at the plate with no gaurantee of that happening again this year, nomar and manny have to be pissed, & pedro has shown that he is no more than a 7 inning pitcher.

if all the ifs turn positive, there could be two 100 win teams in the AL east. if they turn negative, who the hell knows what it's gonna look like. let's not forget the orioles lineup is also much improved.
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Old 02-14-2004, 11:56 PM   #44
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i guess thats why they play the games...


but, statistically, which is all you can go on during the offseason

there is no doubt that the yankees are a far, far, far better team than last year.
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Old 02-15-2004, 12:04 AM   #45
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Quote:
Originally posted by StlElevation
right, and you never will see a pitcher with 5 wins get a cy young, because wins are eye candy.

i dont see the HR comparision, Hr's are an individual achievement, unlike a win.

OPS is the best tool to judge a non-leadoff hitter by anyway
HRs might be a individual achievement, but Barry Bonds is more likely to hit a dinger off me than he is off Pedro or Clemens. If wins don't matter because of the quality of the offence or defence, then HRs shouldn't matter because of quality of the pitcher.
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