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Old 05-31-2008, 12:08 AM   #946
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To me it was good television. While it may not have been as fast-paced as many of the episodes this season, it showed us what happened, answered a few questions, and set up events for next season nicely. If I were as critical as you seem to be, I probably would have stopped watching long ago. I tend to tune out of shows that bug me.* Different strokes for different folks, I guess.

*Although now that I think of it, there is one show that I'm critical of, many aspects bug the shit out of me, and yet I'm oddly compelled to continue watching - Dexter. So yeah, I obviously have no room to talk.
I know what you mean, but in actuality, I only complained about one character (and he hasn't exactly been a standard focal point in the show for quite some time, now, that Locke) and one episode. I'm hardly hanging onto a show that bugs me. I'm just complaining about what I see as a lazy character and a lazy episode. If I jumped ship after disliking one song on a record, I'd be insane--the same goes for television.

I saw one episode of Dexter on a plane, one time. It was a bit goth-camp for my taste, so I didn't like it too much, but it was easily the gayest "straight" show I've seen in about 500 years, which definitely captured my attention. Fascinating to watch and deconstruct, but less fun for me just to watch and "just" enjoy, if you know what I mean.

Of course, I may be thinking of another show. If so, then please disregard what I just said, cuz I probably sound like a madman.
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Old 05-31-2008, 02:41 AM   #947
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Any Western philosophy geek also would have picked it up the second they mentioned "Jeremy Bentham." It's like they weren't even trying to hide it anymore.
Since I'm not a "Western philosophy geek", I had to look up Jeremy Bentham. Very interesting--note that one of his influences was John Locke!

Jeremy Bentham - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
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Old 05-31-2008, 09:26 AM   #948
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A lack of ambition or entertaining goals isn't an excuse for a lack of entertainment or well-plotted, well-staged drama.
To pick and choose a singular sentence from your post (cough cough), I will ask you...

No well-staged drama? Seriously? This episode had "well-staged drama" comin out of its earholes. The entire freighter sequence with Ben killing Keamy and the Oceanic 6 frantically attempting to board the helicopter and the ultimate death of Jin and Michael...

That sequence to me was the definition of "well-plotted, well-staged drama"

So what exactly are you looking for in a television show?
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Old 05-31-2008, 10:33 AM   #949
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Sorry I'm late to the party here, I only got to watch this today.

I thought this was very good, though I agree it wasn't anywhere near the level of Season 2's finale, and the "cliffhanger" wasn't really much of one. I mean, we already knew they "had to go back" at the end of LAST season! Like Jack was going to be wrong? Knowing Locke is going to eventually die (at the hands of Widmore? Ben?) certainly will be something to wonder about, but I'm not chomping at the bit thinking of what's going to happen next. I'm actually in a somewhat satisfied place, which is a very weird feeling with this show. Like there's a little time to relax. It's going to become very conspiratorial next season, which should make for good drama.

It's unlikely Faraday's raft made it back to the island before it was moved, though I imagine if they saw the explosion from afar they could have. Also, if they were still in the water, there's no reason they wouldn't eventually hit other land and get rescued themselves. As there were other no-name Oceanic passengers on that raft, this would have compromised the story of the Oceanic 6.

Was Locke back in the "real" world because he too was forced to move the island? As the leader this would be his responsibility. If so, it's possible that he came back paralyzed again, and actually did kill himself. I don't think it's far-fetched. And does "everyone" having to go back include Walt?

I'm shocked at IYS's opinion of Locke as a character. To me he's clearly the most interesting one on the show, and it's obvious the producers feel the same way. Jack may be the "hero", but Locke is the axis around which the whole mythology spins. I don't agree with the assessment of Terry O'Quinn's acting, either. I think his balancing act of desperation and determination, his faith and his naivety, is the best work by any of the actors. To me Emerson is much more of a one-trick pony, though I do think he's very good.

As I suspected, we didn't see any more of Claire's storyline, though one could argue her appearance in Kate's dream is more evidence of her being dead. If I have one complaint, it's that the producers introduced this Claire/Christian storyline and did virtually nothing with them except use them as shock value, which is cheap.
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Old 05-31-2008, 10:48 AM   #950
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Why did Desmond lie to Charley about Claire and Aaron getting on a helicopter? Is he that selfish about his desire to get to Penny? There is another course correction coming, since the ONLY important thing he was to have done is push the button.

Now, I believe Charlotte, Miles, and Daniel have been on the Island before. I believe that they are working for Widmore. Locke has to move the idland to save the Island again, and that is the turmoil that occurs after Jack leaves the Island.

Maybe??????
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Old 05-31-2008, 11:23 AM   #951
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Why did Desmond lie to Charley about Claire and Aaron getting on a helicopter? Is he that selfish about his desire to get to Penny? There is another course correction coming, since the ONLY important thing he was to have done is push the button.
I don't think Desmond is that selfish. Maybe the future changed when he was time jumping?
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Old 05-31-2008, 04:29 PM   #952
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I Must Have More Lost Discussion!!!
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Old 05-31-2008, 05:53 PM   #953
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I know what you mean, but in actuality, I only complained about one character (and he hasn't exactly been a standard focal point in the show for quite some time, now, that Locke) and one episode. I'm hardly hanging onto a show that bugs me. I'm just complaining about what I see as a lazy character and a lazy episode. If I jumped ship after disliking one song on a record, I'd be insane--the same goes for television.

I saw one episode of Dexter on a plane, one time. It was a bit goth-camp for my taste, so I didn't like it too much, but it was easily the gayest "straight" show I've seen in about 500 years, which definitely captured my attention. Fascinating to watch and deconstruct, but less fun for me just to watch and "just" enjoy, if you know what I mean.

Of course, I may be thinking of another show. If so, then please disregard what I just said, cuz I probably sound like a madman.
Gotcha. Although I don't agree, I understand. Thanks for the clarification.

Dexter is the series starring Michael C. Hall, best known for Six Feet Under, where he plays a sociopath with a need to murder, so he channels it into killing other murderers, many of whom have escaped punishment by the justice system. He has easy access to information about these killers through his job as a blood analyst for the Miami PD.
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Old 05-31-2008, 06:05 PM   #954
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It's unlikely Faraday's raft made it back to the island before it was moved, though I imagine if they saw the explosion from afar they could have. Also, if they were still in the water, there's no reason they wouldn't eventually hit other land and get rescued themselves. As there were other no-name Oceanic passengers on that raft, this would have compromised the story of the Oceanic 6.
I've seen it speculated that maybe Faraday's raft was within the area that got moved along with the island. In other words, maybe it wasn't just the land mass of the island, but some of the surrounding waters, too. If this is the case, I can easily see how Jin's survival could be explained, that he was within this arbitrary area, too.

Quote:
As I suspected, we didn't see any more of Claire's storyline, though one could argue her appearance in Kate's dream is more evidence of her being dead. If I have one complaint, it's that the producers introduced this Claire/Christian storyline and did virtually nothing with them except use them as shock value, which is cheap.
I don't necessarily think that dream appearance = dead. It's more likely that her manifesting in the room outside of a dream would indicate that, in my view.


Okay, all this talk about moving the island in time vs. moving the island in space had me very confused, until my daughter explained it to me last night. To my way of thinking, if the island was moved in time, it would still be in the same place, it would just be X amount of time earlier or later on the island. Then she explained it to me in the context of the bunny experiments, that it seems that from what we've been shown, the bunnies, when moved forward in time, seem to "disappear" until real time catches up with the time they were moved forward to, and then they reappear to people who weren't moved. Maybe someone more sciencey/science fiction-y than either of us can clarify - is this the case? And if so, is this conventional thinking as to the way that time travel would occur in other stories dealing with the subject? Or did they just pull it out of their asses to fit the story?
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Old 05-31-2008, 06:23 PM   #955
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I Must Have More Lost Discussion!!!
Indeed, and I have a feeling you are right about Faraday's group.

First off Charlotte:She has to be an Island baby. According to Lostpedia,she was born in 1979...smack dab in the middle of the Dharma Initiative in it's heyday!
Sounds like she was born on the Island but raised on the mainland. Could she have been "raised by another"? She recognized the Dharma logo on the Polar bear...could she have some "memories" of being there before? Or possibly she just grew up listening to tales from her parents about their days on the Island? Charlotte interest in Aaron being born on the island
is would also more understandable now that we know
she also was born there.

Miles: He is certainly a "ghost seer", however, I think he knows more about the island and the "way people die" on the island than he is letting on. But can he only see people who have died. Or does he have a broader vision and the ability to foresee death. This leads me to suspect he was born on the island also.
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Old 05-31-2008, 07:07 PM   #956
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Now, I believe Charlotte, Miles, and Daniel have been on the Island before.

Maybe??????
Was Charlotte the one that said she had wanted to get back to the island?

It sounded very much like what Jack has been rambling about.

Almost the same exact words.
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Old 05-31-2008, 07:17 PM   #957
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Something just occurred to me. When Ben said the line to Locke about not being able to come back, he was under the impression that everyone on the freighter was dead. In other words, no one was leaving the island. And without any way to contact the island, Ben assumes he will not be able to return. Much like it has taken Widmore so long to find it again after leaving.

However, once Ben does come back, he will quickly discover the existence of the Oceanic 6, and therefore knows he can use them to return. Because if I'm not mistaken, he says to Jack that "we" have to go back, which would include himself, and appear to contradict what he told Locke before leaving.

Vintage Punk, I'm going to have to rewatch this season's flashforwards to get the timeline straight, but I'm guessing that figuring out how much time has passed in the real world when Ben appears in the desert will clue us in to what has happened to the island. I'm hoping the producers have all their continuity straight.
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Old 05-31-2008, 07:32 PM   #958
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Vintage Punk, I'm going to have to rewatch this season's flashforwards to get the timeline straight, but I'm guessing that figuring out how much time has passed in the real world when Ben appears in the desert will clue us in to what has happened to the island. I'm hoping the producers have all their continuity straight.
If it helps, it would have been the end of 2004 current island time that Ben went into the Orchid and moved the island. He showed up in Tunisia, and checked into the hotel on October 24th, 2005.

I didn't really mean "pull it out of their asses" as in that they made it up just to suit that scene. I meant it more as did they make up their own rules regarding time travel for the show (that who/whatever time travels disappears), or is that conventional thinking in most fictional uses of time travel, or in theories of how time travel would conceivably work?
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Old 05-31-2008, 07:33 PM   #959
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To pick and choose a singular sentence from your post (cough cough), I will ask you...

No well-staged drama? Seriously? This episode had "well-staged drama" comin out of its earholes. The entire freighter sequence with Ben killing Keamy and the Oceanic 6 frantically attempting to board the helicopter and the ultimate death of Jin and Michael...

That sequence to me was the definition of "well-plotted, well-staged drama"

So what exactly are you looking for in a television show?
At the very least, good editing and/or good special effects, for sequences which demand them. The sequences you're referencing had neither. The compositing on that explosion reminded me of something from a CGI Saturday morning cartoon, and the editing was so heavy-handed that I couldn't tell what was going on, at times (perhaps they brought in Guillermo Del Toro to fuck it up, cuz it certainly resembled one of his hack-jobs). It could have something to do with the fact that I have two degrees, one of them in cinema, but something I generally look for in a television show is an abscence of televisual conventions. This finale looked like a TV program, which has been true of much of this season, and a primary reason why I haven't been completely satisfied, this year. I laughed out loud, during the sequences you mention, as did those with whom I was watching the episode, here in Japan. That doesn't, of course, mean that I'm right and that you're wrong--I'm just saying that I'm not alone, here. Others have said the same sort of stuff, even in this particular thread. Miserable stuff, I thought.

Still, I must again utter the refrain: John Locke is dead. I am happy. I can't be anything but.
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Old 05-31-2008, 07:34 PM   #960
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Gotcha. Although I don't agree, I understand. Thanks for the clarification.

Dexter is the series starring Michael C. Hall, best known for Six Feet Under, where he plays a sociopath with a need to murder, so he channels it into killing other murderers, many of whom have escaped punishment by the justice system. He has easy access to information about these killers through his job as a blood analyst for the Miami PD.
Yeah, that's the one. Very interesting stuff, though I can't enjoy it without making it too academic/theoretical. On which network is that show broadcast...?
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