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Maybe I didn't have the expectations that everyone else did, or maybe it's because I haven't followed it religiously since day 1 and caught up with it late, but I liked last night's espisode. I mean, I was hooked, although I agree Desmond & Penny's reunion was anti-climactic, as well as the coffin "revelation."

I enjoyed Ben's time traveling bunny moment. :lmao:
 
I liked it a lot, too. Considering that we already knew the end result, and that all they had to do was fill in the details to show us how they got to that result, they still managed to included some surprises and unexpected things.

Sun's conversation with Widmore - some people on another site I was reading seem to overwhelmingly feel that she's trying to align with Widmore in order to seek revenge for Jin being killed, and that the object of that revenge is probably Ben. I didn't see it that way at all. Rather, I thought that she might have been attempting to trick Widmore into believing that she and he share common interests and that she wanted to align with him so that she could get Widmore himself. I guess it depends on who the second person is that she blames for Jin's death. Some think it's Jack, but I don't see how it could be him, since he was no more to blame than the other people on the helicopter, and especially Frank, the one who actually flew it away. She would have no way of knowing that it was Ben who killed Keamy, so I can't see it being Ben. But she would know by that time that the freighter belonged to Widmore, and that he was the one who set the entire mission up.

The reason I said that I don't think Jin is dead is because I'm always suspicious on this show unless we're shown a body. I deluded myself for two weeks that Rousseau was still alive. :wink: It's very likely that by the time the explosion occurred, Jin was in the area of the boat that wasn't blown to smithereens. I was thinking that maybe Jin was found by Faraday and crew, but that seems pretty impossible. Maybe he was able to grab some sort of flotation device and float back to the island? Imagine the impact of a Jin - Sun reunion when the O6 make it back to the island. I don't think it's out of the realm of possibility.
 
Back to the guy on the plane.


There was the lady

a pilot and co-pilot in the cockpit

the oceanic 6 with the lady again in the cargo hold
and some guy in jumpsuit with a bald head in the cargo hold?, too



well, 'some guy with bald head in jumpsuit' is barely seen (but just enough) when they deplane out the back to family members

"some bald guy in jumpsuit" looks a lot like John Locke

of course he would have to sneak back
because a guy with a 'broken spine" can not walk
 
I don't think Locke killed himself, either.

It can't be Locke on the plane. If it was, how would he know that "bad things" had happened on the island in the ensuing 3 years? There was a lightened picture of that scene that showed the person wearing a head-set. It was just a crew member.

Okay, since last night, we've (my daughter and I) found a theory about something on the show, one that explains a hell of a lot. Since then we've been discussing it off and on, and we cannot come up with any points to discount the theory, but we've come up with many more points that seem to verify its likelihood.

There don't seem to be any hard and fast rules regarding the discussion of speculation around here. Is it okay to post and discuss it in this thread? I'd like to hear what you all think about it, and see if any of you can find flaws in it.
 
VintagePunk said:
I liked it a lot, too. Considering that we already knew the end result, and that all they had to do was fill in the details to show us how they got to that result, they still managed to included some surprises and unexpected things.
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You see, the problem is that that's not "all they had to do." You (or I, anyway) can't excuse a messy, almost entirely bland episode simply because it set the bar so low that it couldn't do anything but clear it, even if clumsily. A lack of ambition or entertaining goals isn't an excuse for a lack of entertainment or well-plotted, well-staged drama. Simply having to "fill in the details" is garbage. That's not good TV--it's a cop-out, and it's a way to cover up a lack of riveting ideas.

The Season 2 finale was, for me, easily the best single episode in the history of the series. The Season 3 finale was very good, but hardly great, until the last 10 minutes, when it helped people to forgot how much time had been sort of wasted, over the last 70 minutes, by giving them something so shocking that it was of course going to be the only thing they could remember. A good episode, but I don't think it holds a candle to the jaw-dropping Season 2 finale. The Season 1 finale was a stunner, I thought. Much better than the good Season 3 finale, as a whole, and a hell of a lot more suspenseful (as were several of the last few episodes) than just about anything the show has done, subsequently. For me, the Season 4 finale was an on-screen abortion.

The best part was knowing (as I think most people did--didn't need spoilers to figure this one out, even if you hadn't been sure, by the time the episode started, as they gave it away two minutes in that whoever told Jack to lie was the one in the coffin...sigh) that Locke is dead. If he stays dead, I'll be back on board forever, with this show. Hot shit, do I hate that boring-as-fuck, dreadfully written character. Quinn's not a bad actor, I guess, and I feel for the guy, having to deal with laughable plot devices like an evil, con artist father who steals your kidney, randomly pushes you out of a window, and paralyzes you, or the maleficent orange farmers of doom. Ugh. Kudos to the guy for trying, but I'd rather not have to see anything like that, ever again. The effort, in this case, simply isn't enough. One-trick pony--seem desperate/hurt, smirk, shrug, and say something about destiny, and you're John Locke in 99% of the situations, on this show. I cried, earlier this season, when the gun whose trigger Jack pulled was empty. Oh, that sucked! :wink:
 
If you shout... said:
You see, the problem is that that's not "all they had to do." You (or I, anyway) can't excuse a messy, almost entirely bland episode simply because it set the bar so low that it couldn't do anything but clear it, even if clumsily. A lack of ambition or entertaining goals isn't an excuse for a lack of entertainment or well-plotted, well-staged drama. Simply having to "fill in the details" is garbage. That's not good TV--it's a cop-out, and it's a way to cover up a lack of riveting ideas.
Click to expand...
To me it was good television. While it may not have been as fast-paced as many of the episodes this season, it showed us what happened, answered a few questions, and set up events for next season nicely. If I were as critical as you seem to be, I probably would have stopped watching long ago. I tend to tune out of shows that bug me.* Different strokes for different folks, I guess.

*Although now that I think of it, there is one show that I'm critical of, many aspects bug the shit out of me, and yet I'm oddly compelled to continue watching - Dexter. So yeah, I obviously have no room to talk. :wink:
 
they were talking about this jeremy dude throughout the episode and it turned out to be Locke but then i totally forgot what they even said about him lol

but now theyre off the island and they have 3 seaons left? isnt that going to be pretty boring/lame......and what happened to Dan!?! :scream:
 
I love how each season is sort of a story unto itself as well as a part of the larger story. A lot of little things that highlighted this episode for me:

I especially liked the emphasis on the Jack/Science v. Locke/Faith theme. That's been around since Season One and is one of my absolute favorite character dynamics/themes of the show.Locke. His character has come full circle. Aside from the coffin issue When he was pleading for the safety of the people on the freighter and talking to Jack about miracles - I thought it was perfect. He has had a great arc, with both highs and lows. The smile on his face when he joined the Others was perfect! Not sure what to make of his apparent demise, but I don't think for a second he is off the show.


Jin's last moments where the saddest part for me... Poor Sun, I knew he was dying but I did not expect it like that? I am glad Michel and he made peace.- Sun. Her acting when the freighter blew up, as well as her scene with Widmore. Does anyone else think that she might be the Economist?

Hurley gets a visits very often both living and dead. It was nice to see Walt and his actual age now. Now his age is appropriate. How neat is that! It's been three years since he left the show and he visits Hurley three years in the future. I'm curious if he will have more of a role now that his age can be explained a bit. I was waiting for him to ask Hurley for his $83K that he won playing backgammon. lol

Hurley mentioning Eko was music to my ears.That is what I love about LOST you can be dead but not completely gone.

The frozen donkey wheel. I know some are complaining about this and think it is lame, but thought it was pretty cool. We've seen evidence of previous civilization on the Island and I believe this is some remnant of that.

Sayid vs Keamy...That by itself made for an awesome finale! Watching Sawyer emerge from the ocean was almost as visually stunning as watching the island disappear.

I wonder where did Faraday's group end up? Are they lost at sea now?

- The Oceanic 6. I loved how all season the 6 members were never together. Even in part 1 they would come together and separate. I'm sure this was intentional and it worked for me. When they were finally all together, it was amazing. At first, I was worried about Desmond and Frank - I was wondering what was going to happen to them.



All in all, I really thought this was a great finale to a great season. You can tell the show is cruising towards it's end game. The show has opened up so much more each season to reveal its mythology and I am still enjoying the ride. I can't wait to see what they do next year!
 
VintagePunk said:
To me it was good television. While it may not have been as fast-paced as many of the episodes this season, it showed us what happened, answered a few questions, and set up events for next season nicely. If I were as critical as you seem to be, I probably would have stopped watching long ago. I tend to tune out of shows that bug me.* Different strokes for different folks, I guess.

*Although now that I think of it, there is one show that I'm critical of, many aspects bug the shit out of me, and yet I'm oddly compelled to continue watching - Dexter. So yeah, I obviously have no room to talk. :wink:
Click to expand...

I know what you mean, but in actuality, I only complained about one character (and he hasn't exactly been a standard focal point in the show for quite some time, now, that Locke) and one episode. I'm hardly hanging onto a show that bugs me. I'm just complaining about what I see as a lazy character and a lazy episode. If I jumped ship after disliking one song on a record, I'd be insane--the same goes for television.

I saw one episode of Dexter on a plane, one time. It was a bit goth-camp for my taste, so I didn't like it too much, but it was easily the gayest "straight" show I've seen in about 500 years, which definitely captured my attention. Fascinating to watch and deconstruct, but less fun for me just to watch and "just" enjoy, if you know what I mean.

Of course, I may be thinking of another show. If so, then please disregard what I just said, cuz I probably sound like a madman.
 
If you shout... said:
A lack of ambition or entertaining goals isn't an excuse for a lack of entertainment or well-plotted, well-staged drama.
Click to expand...

To pick and choose a singular sentence from your post (cough cough), I will ask you...

No well-staged drama? Seriously? This episode had "well-staged drama" comin out of its earholes. The entire freighter sequence with Ben killing Keamy and the Oceanic 6 frantically attempting to board the helicopter and the ultimate death of Jin and Michael...

That sequence to me was the definition of "well-plotted, well-staged drama"

So what exactly are you looking for in a television show?
 
Sorry I'm late to the party here, I only got to watch this today.

I thought this was very good, though I agree it wasn't anywhere near the level of Season 2's finale, and the "cliffhanger" wasn't really much of one. I mean, we already knew they "had to go back" at the end of LAST season! Like Jack was going to be wrong? Knowing Locke is going to eventually die (at the hands of Widmore? Ben?) certainly will be something to wonder about, but I'm not chomping at the bit thinking of what's going to happen next. I'm actually in a somewhat satisfied place, which is a very weird feeling with this show. Like there's a little time to relax. It's going to become very conspiratorial next season, which should make for good drama.

It's unlikely Faraday's raft made it back to the island before it was moved, though I imagine if they saw the explosion from afar they could have. Also, if they were still in the water, there's no reason they wouldn't eventually hit other land and get rescued themselves. As there were other no-name Oceanic passengers on that raft, this would have compromised the story of the Oceanic 6.

Was Locke back in the "real" world because he too was forced to move the island? As the leader this would be his responsibility. If so, it's possible that he came back paralyzed again, and actually did kill himself. I don't think it's far-fetched. And does "everyone" having to go back include Walt?

I'm shocked at IYS's opinion of Locke as a character. To me he's clearly the most interesting one on the show, and it's obvious the producers feel the same way. Jack may be the "hero", but Locke is the axis around which the whole mythology spins. I don't agree with the assessment of Terry O'Quinn's acting, either. I think his balancing act of desperation and determination, his faith and his naivety, is the best work by any of the actors. To me Emerson is much more of a one-trick pony, though I do think he's very good.

As I suspected, we didn't see any more of Claire's storyline, though one could argue her appearance in Kate's dream is more evidence of her being dead. If I have one complaint, it's that the producers introduced this Claire/Christian storyline and did virtually nothing with them except use them as shock value, which is cheap.
 
Why did Desmond lie to Charley about Claire and Aaron getting on a helicopter? Is he that selfish about his desire to get to Penny? There is another course correction coming, since the ONLY important thing he was to have done is push the button.

Now, I believe Charlotte, Miles, and Daniel have been on the Island before. I believe that they are working for Widmore. Locke has to move the idland to save the Island again, and that is the turmoil that occurs after Jack leaves the Island.

Maybe??????:waiting:
 
Dreadsox said:
Why did Desmond lie to Charley about Claire and Aaron getting on a helicopter? Is he that selfish about his desire to get to Penny? There is another course correction coming, since the ONLY important thing he was to have done is push the button.
Click to expand...

I don't think Desmond is that selfish. Maybe the future changed when he was time jumping? :shrug:
 
If you shout... said:
I know what you mean, but in actuality, I only complained about one character (and he hasn't exactly been a standard focal point in the show for quite some time, now, that Locke) and one episode. I'm hardly hanging onto a show that bugs me. I'm just complaining about what I see as a lazy character and a lazy episode. If I jumped ship after disliking one song on a record, I'd be insane--the same goes for television.

I saw one episode of Dexter on a plane, one time. It was a bit goth-camp for my taste, so I didn't like it too much, but it was easily the gayest "straight" show I've seen in about 500 years, which definitely captured my attention. Fascinating to watch and deconstruct, but less fun for me just to watch and "just" enjoy, if you know what I mean.

Of course, I may be thinking of another show. If so, then please disregard what I just said, cuz I probably sound like a madman.
Click to expand...

Gotcha. Although I don't agree, I understand. Thanks for the clarification.

Dexter is the series starring Michael C. Hall, best known for Six Feet Under, where he plays a sociopath with a need to murder, so he channels it into killing other murderers, many of whom have escaped punishment by the justice system. He has easy access to information about these killers through his job as a blood analyst for the Miami PD.
 
lazarus said:
It's unlikely Faraday's raft made it back to the island before it was moved, though I imagine if they saw the explosion from afar they could have. Also, if they were still in the water, there's no reason they wouldn't eventually hit other land and get rescued themselves. As there were other no-name Oceanic passengers on that raft, this would have compromised the story of the Oceanic 6.
Click to expand...

I've seen it speculated that maybe Faraday's raft was within the area that got moved along with the island. In other words, maybe it wasn't just the land mass of the island, but some of the surrounding waters, too. If this is the case, I can easily see how Jin's survival could be explained, that he was within this arbitrary area, too.

As I suspected, we didn't see any more of Claire's storyline, though one could argue her appearance in Kate's dream is more evidence of her being dead. If I have one complaint, it's that the producers introduced this Claire/Christian storyline and did virtually nothing with them except use them as shock value, which is cheap.
Click to expand...

I don't necessarily think that dream appearance = dead. It's more likely that her manifesting in the room outside of a dream would indicate that, in my view.


Okay, all this talk about moving the island in time vs. moving the island in space had me very confused, until my daughter explained it to me last night. To my way of thinking, if the island was moved in time, it would still be in the same place, it would just be X amount of time earlier or later on the island. Then she explained it to me in the context of the bunny experiments, that it seems that from what we've been shown, the bunnies, when moved forward in time, seem to "disappear" until real time catches up with the time they were moved forward to, and then they reappear to people who weren't moved. Maybe someone more sciencey/science fiction-y than either of us can clarify - is this the case? And if so, is this conventional thinking as to the way that time travel would occur in other stories dealing with the subject? Or did they just pull it out of their asses to fit the story?
 
lazarus said:
I Must Have More Lost Discussion!!!
Click to expand...

Indeed, and I have a feeling you are right about Faraday's group.:(

First off Charlotte:She has to be an Island baby. According to Lostpedia,she was born in 1979...smack dab in the middle of the Dharma Initiative in it's heyday!
Sounds like she was born on the Island but raised on the mainland. Could she have been "raised by another"? She recognized the Dharma logo on the Polar bear...could she have some "memories" of being there before? Or possibly she just grew up listening to tales from her parents about their days on the Island? Charlotte interest in Aaron being born on the island
is would also more understandable now that we know
she also was born there.

Miles: He is certainly a "ghost seer", however, I think he knows more about the island and the "way people die" on the island than he is letting on. But can he only see people who have died. Or does he have a broader vision and the ability to foresee death. This leads me to suspect he was born on the island also.
 
Dreadsox said:
Now, I believe Charlotte, Miles, and Daniel have been on the Island before.

Maybe??????:waiting:
Click to expand...

Was Charlotte the one that said she had wanted to get back to the island?

It sounded very much like what Jack has been rambling about.

Almost the same exact words.
 
Something just occurred to me. When Ben said the line to Locke about not being able to come back, he was under the impression that everyone on the freighter was dead. In other words, no one was leaving the island. And without any way to contact the island, Ben assumes he will not be able to return. Much like it has taken Widmore so long to find it again after leaving.

However, once Ben does come back, he will quickly discover the existence of the Oceanic 6, and therefore knows he can use them to return. Because if I'm not mistaken, he says to Jack that "we" have to go back, which would include himself, and appear to contradict what he told Locke before leaving.

Vintage Punk, I'm going to have to rewatch this season's flashforwards to get the timeline straight, but I'm guessing that figuring out how much time has passed in the real world when Ben appears in the desert will clue us in to what has happened to the island. I'm hoping the producers have all their continuity straight.
 
lazarus said:
Vintage Punk, I'm going to have to rewatch this season's flashforwards to get the timeline straight, but I'm guessing that figuring out how much time has passed in the real world when Ben appears in the desert will clue us in to what has happened to the island. I'm hoping the producers have all their continuity straight.
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If it helps, it would have been the end of 2004 current island time that Ben went into the Orchid and moved the island. He showed up in Tunisia, and checked into the hotel on October 24th, 2005.

I didn't really mean "pull it out of their asses" as in that they made it up just to suit that scene. I meant it more as did they make up their own rules regarding time travel for the show (that who/whatever time travels disappears), or is that conventional thinking in most fictional uses of time travel, or in theories of how time travel would conceivably work?
 
GirlsAloudFan said:
To pick and choose a singular sentence from your post (cough cough), I will ask you...

No well-staged drama? Seriously? This episode had "well-staged drama" comin out of its earholes. The entire freighter sequence with Ben killing Keamy and the Oceanic 6 frantically attempting to board the helicopter and the ultimate death of Jin and Michael...

That sequence to me was the definition of "well-plotted, well-staged drama"

So what exactly are you looking for in a television show?
Click to expand...

At the very least, good editing and/or good special effects, for sequences which demand them. The sequences you're referencing had neither. The compositing on that explosion reminded me of something from a CGI Saturday morning cartoon, and the editing was so heavy-handed that I couldn't tell what was going on, at times (perhaps they brought in Guillermo Del Toro to fuck it up, cuz it certainly resembled one of his hack-jobs). It could have something to do with the fact that I have two degrees, one of them in cinema, but something I generally look for in a television show is an abscence of televisual conventions. This finale looked like a TV program, which has been true of much of this season, and a primary reason why I haven't been completely satisfied, this year. I laughed out loud, during the sequences you mention, as did those with whom I was watching the episode, here in Japan. That doesn't, of course, mean that I'm right and that you're wrong--I'm just saying that I'm not alone, here. Others have said the same sort of stuff, even in this particular thread. Miserable stuff, I thought.

Still, I must again utter the refrain: John Locke is dead. I am happy. I can't be anything but.
 
VintagePunk said:
Gotcha. Although I don't agree, I understand. Thanks for the clarification.

Dexter is the series starring Michael C. Hall, best known for Six Feet Under, where he plays a sociopath with a need to murder, so he channels it into killing other murderers, many of whom have escaped punishment by the justice system. He has easy access to information about these killers through his job as a blood analyst for the Miami PD.
Click to expand...

Yeah, that's the one. Very interesting stuff, though I can't enjoy it without making it too academic/theoretical. On which network is that show broadcast...?
 
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