Instant karma for REM???

[financeguy]

I have to agree with what you guys are saying about the post-Bill Berry material. They just aren't R.E.M. anymore. I quite enjoyed Up, but I thought Reveal really sucked and Around The Sun was not a huge improvment. But they're still my favorite band because I enjoy their back catalog (from NAIHF on back) more than anyone else's catalog. And they're still a rockin' live band.

Yeah I agree, the rot started with Up. I actually prefer Reveal to Up but neither of them are great. I didn't even bother getting the new one, heard too many bad reports.

 

[indra]

So I guess you felt safe to assume that there are no Murmurs posters on Interference? I happen to be one. Way to make a sweeping generalization there.

Don't worry greenlight7-11, there are plenty of pretentious, obnoxious U2 fans about too. Every band has them.

 

[financeguy]

Don't worry greenlight7-11, there are plenty of pretentious, obnoxious U2 fans about too. Every band has them.

I'm not sure if there are that many pretentious U2 fans. There are U2 fans who appear somewhat narrow in their musical tastes, i.e., U2 and nothing else.

At times I'd almost prefer if there were more
rather than fewer pretentious, arty U2 fans - e.g. people who understand surrealism and Dadaism and the influence these art movements had on some U2 albums. Although more so in respect of U2's "sister" band the Virgin Prunes.

 

[indra]

I'm not sure if there are that many pretentious U2 fans. There are U2 fans who appear somewhat narrow in their musical tastes, i.e., U2 and nothing else.

At times I'd almost prefer if there were more
rather than fewer pretentious, arty U2 fans - e.g. people who understand surrealism and Dadaism and the influence these art movements had on some U2 albums. Although more so in respect of U2's "sister" band the Virgin Prunes.

I was using the following definitions of pretentious:

1) making usually unjustified or excessive claims
2) expressive of affective, unwarranted, or exaggerated importance, worth, or stature

There are U2 fans that certainly fit these definitions.

Also pretension doesn't mean you understand art influences -- more that you try to make everyone else think you do.

 

[financeguy]

I was using the following definitions of pretentious:

1) making usually unjustified or excessive claims
2) expressive of affective, unwarranted, or exaggerated importance, worth, or stature

Sure, I think in my experience most of those type of fans are often the very young ones that maybe haven't had the chance to experience other types of music and hence make exaggerated or excessive claims on behalf of U2.

 

[U2DMfan]

So I guess you felt safe to assume that there are no Murmurs posters on Interference? I happen to be one. Way to make a sweeping generalization there.

Just exactly what was said was exactly what I meant. It's tantamount to me NOT typing "people who post at Murmurs are pretentious assholes" it's the understood part of the statement, hence the use of the phrase "murmurs-type". If taken in context, there should be no direct generalization, just a statement, it's not hard to figure out.

Am I talking about myself? I post over there, common sense, here.

 

[indra]

Sure, I think in my experience most of those type of fans are often the very young ones that maybe haven't had the chance to experience other types of music and hence make exaggerated or excessive claims on behalf of U2.

Very true. I'm starting to feel very old...

 

[greenlight7-11]

Just exactly what was said was exactly what I meant. It's tantamount to me NOT typing "people who post at Murmurs are pretentious assholes" it's the understood part of the statement, hence the use of the phrase "murmurs-type". If taken in context, there should be no direct generalization, just a statement, it's not hard to figure out.

Am I talking about myself? I post over there, common sense, here.

My apologies. I obviously didn't automatically assume that you were also a Murmurs poster, given that the way you talked about Murmurs folks made it seem like you weren't too keen on that site. I was thinking maybe you had browsed the site and decided you didn't like it and didn't join.

 

[intedomine]

Around the Sun is flawed. Yet I think it becomes brilliant after A Boy in the Well. You get a taste of everything.

I am a huge fan of Worst Joke Ever and High Speed Train, even if Stipey sounds as if he's lethargic and can't be bothered anymore.

Around the Sun (song) is a great album closer and Ascent of Man is reminiscint of one of my favourites Animal.

Aftermath, Electron Blue, Leaving New York, Wanderlust and Outsiders are fine too.

I wanted to be wrong and make it all okay are average, and personally I find Final Straw quite awful.

 

[lazarus]

I didn't DISLIKE what I heard on Around the Sun, but very few songs jumped out at me.

The difference is this: while people on Intereference have been divided on HTDAAB, a majority of U2 fans seem to like it. There is much discussion over whether it is one of their best albums. It's not an extravagant claim to mention it in the same breath as JT or AB, even if you think the older two albums are clearly superior.

I can't imagine any discussion like that on R.E.M. boards right now about Around the Sun. What percentage of R.E.M. fans are actually pleased with it (save the sycophants who will lap up anything)? How many mention it as being among their best efforts? As much as I dislike Green (which couldn't sound any more like a major label debut sellout album than it actually does), I would certainly listen to it before popping in the new album or Reveal. I'd have to go back to Reckoning or Fables to find something comparably weak, and at least Reckoning has youthful energy, Fables some of Stipe's best writing (the album just runs out of steam in the second half).

Ultimately, R.E.M. just sounds sadly irrelevant. Not obscure or alternative or artsy, just unimportant. And it's the worst thing I can imagine happening to this band, after all they've done. They sound like their hearts aren't in it.


laz

 

[IWasBored]

Don't worry greenlight7-11, there are plenty of pretentious, obnoxious U2 fans about too. Every band has them.

seriously.

someone should introduce you to some internet-dropkick murphys "fans". half of them are "OMG!!! ILUV DKMS!!!!!!! who do u think is beter? mike mccoolgan or al bar???" and the other half are will say "dkm fucking suck, they've sucked since 'do or die' but everything else they've put out has been really gay". sure there are people in the middle of that mess...but about 90% of the ones i've seen online AND in real life fall into one of these categories.





as for REM, i guess i've never been a big enough fan to give a shit about what direction they might have headed in. it's interesting, if you don't take it too personally when a band puts out an album that isn't as good as you think it should be, then it doesn't bother you as much. i had a great time seeing them live last october.

i agree that around the sun is quote boring (although i really like "i wanted to be wrong", "leaving ny" and "wanderlust", but that's about it). i hate reveal.

i like songs from pretty much all their albums. i can't come up with any REM album other than murmer that i love from beginning to end, but does that mean i think they should have quit after that? of course not, that would be ridiculous (not to mention i think murmer came out before i was born, so chances are i would never have heard it had they fallen off the face of the earth after that).

 

[RobH]

I liked REM better when I couldn't understand what the F they were saying.

 

[Westport]

I had been a huge fan...buying all of their albums and seeing them live a few times but I totally agree...

..somehow Bill Berry seems to have been the heart and soul of the band. The rest now come across as being pretentious and Peter Buck's plane escapade didn't help in that regard. Michael Stipe seems to have become too interested in the Hollywood crowd.

And then they had that strange episode where one of their managers left in a bit of controversy...what was that all about?

Altogether, it's been a pretty quick fade.

I keep thinking that Bill Berry will at least come back to the studio but don't expect that to ever happen.

I've always wondered if something happened between Berry and the rest of the band. You would have thought if they were friends that they would have at least talked him into recording with them.

 

[Flying FuManchu]

God damn! He was just the drummer! Talk about putting someone on a pedestal.

 

[greenlight7-11]

Yes, he was just the drummer but I think, much like someone else suggested, that he helped them strike a balance between their good ideas and wonky ideas. Don't forget that he also wrote some songs while he was a member (like Perfect Circle, for instance).

The deal with Jefferson Holt (former manager) being sacked was said to have something to do with sexual harassment of someone at R.E.M.'s offices. But because of legal reasons, no one has ever been able to come out and state the real reason for sure.

Bill wanted to leave the band of his own accord because he found that his priorities had shifted. His brush with death in 1995 made him re-examine his life and he realized that rock band life wasn't what he wanted anymore. All along, he had somewhat reluctantly accepted the role of being in a rock band in the way that he hated doing interviews and photo shoots and was always the first one to leave at the end of rehearsals or recording sessions.

 

[Sleep Over Jack]

God damn! He was just the drummer! Talk about putting someone on a pedestal.

I believe he wrote some songs too, Perfect Circle being one of them.

 

[burns]

I believe he wrote some songs too, Perfect Circle being one of them.

i also heard some where that he wrote everybody hurts

 

[greenlight7-11]

i also heard some where that he wrote everybody hurts

He wrote the guitar part.

 

[vivaSA]

I sow REM in concert last January, and what a bleek experience has that been. If they don't care about critics and fans while making an album, they should really care about them when doing a concert, and try to make a great atmosfere, and not play 8 new, unreleased songs, that most of the people in the concert aren't aware of.
That is what makes U2 a great band, they ROCK live what makes being on their concert an out-of-this-planet experience!

 

[Zoomerang96]

get real, viva. if a band wants to only play "their greatest hits!!!!!", i'd rather stay at home.

that's what makes rem GREAT. i saw them on this tour too, and they were amazing.

 

[lazarus]

Right, but the difference is that NO ONE CARES about R.E.M.'s new songs. They aren't very good. U2 at least is writing stuff that doesn't sound grossly inferior to their more well-known material. Look how well-received the new stuff was received on the Elevation tour. I expect the same thing this time.

And as for Bill Berry, I mentioned earlier in this thread that he was the one who always wanted to make sure the songs had a hook. I forget where I read this but it may have been around the time he left, or when Up came out.

It's not a coincidence that the stuff has been a lot less accessible since his departure, with the exception of half of Up.

And yeah, I pray for the day he returns even for one song on one album. Other than that we'll have to settle for their hall of fame induction in a few years.

lazz

 

[bollox]

the sad fact is, rem's best days are far behind them, they haven't been the same after bill berry left (though up definitely has its moments) i saw them in concert last fall, they were pretty awful, i was subjected to no less than 10 songs from around the sun. conversely, when i saw them the summer before, they were incredible, and played a set that was mostly the classics

obviously rem doesn't want to be thought of as a "greatest hits" nostalgia act, however, they haven't produced anything vital or relevant since up. when i listen to their new stuff, it sounds like middle of the road lite-rock lacking the passion and emotional intensity that made them great

 

[greenlight7-11]

They've always made an effort to play a big chunk of new songs whenever they go on tour, so I don't see why that should change now. I know a good percentage of the audience at this point isn't too interested in hearing them, but of course the band themselves don't think they suck so they're going to play them. Plus, even the worst songs on Reveal and Around The Sun sound a lot better live than on record, at least in my opinion.

 

[Zoomerang96]

Right, but the difference is that NO ONE CARES about R.E.M.'s new songs. They aren't very good. U2 at least is writing stuff that doesn't sound grossly inferior to their more well-known material. Look how well-received the new stuff was received on the Elevation tour. I expect the same thing this time.

And as for Bill Berry, I mentioned earlier in this thread that he was the one who always wanted to make sure the songs had a hook. I forget where I read this but it may have been around the time he left, or when Up came out.

It's not a coincidence that the stuff has been a lot less accessible since his departure, with the exception of half of Up.

And yeah, I pray for the day he returns even for one song on one album. Other than that we'll have to settle for their hall of fame induction in a few years.

lazz

haha, no, that's where i feel you couldn't be more wrong.

i CARE about rem's new songs. i wanted to be wrong is probably one of my favourite songs of 2004.

rem writes songs/music THEY WANT TO. they don't give a shit what anyone else says.

they're already loaded financially, what's the point of bullshitting their way to further $$$??

u2 should take notes. and accessibility is lame. just cause you don't "get it" doesn't mean it's not any good.

most aphex twin could hardly be described as easy listening, so does this make him suck balls?

real artists and groups progress, and if the masses don't accept it - who cares? artists, painters in particular have always evolved. they have to if they're to be considered important.

 

[dunc]

I know I'm relatively alone on this one and I wouldn't say that I swallow any thing that R.E.M. wrote or played, but I am continually blown away by Around the Sun.

And I think its because in Around the Sun, I heard an album that so beautifully describes the last four or so years. And the tunes do continue to grow on me.

Stipe, does continue to write songs that resonant with me. From their latest CD - Leaving New York, Makei it All Okay, Final Straw, Aftermath, Boy in the Well, grabbed me immediately, and the others on subsequent listen have grown too.

 

[indra]

haha, no, that's where i feel you couldn't be more wrong.

i CARE about rem's new songs. i wanted to be wrong is probably one of my favourite songs of 2004.

rem writes songs/music THEY WANT TO. they don't give a shit what anyone else says.

they're already loaded financially, what's the point of bullshitting their way to further $$$??

u2 should take notes. and accessibility is lame. just cause you don't "get it" doesn't mean it's not any good.

most aphex twin could hardly be described as easy listening, so does this make him suck balls?

real artists and groups progress, and if the masses don't accept it - who cares? artists, painters in particular have always evolved. they have to if they're to be considered important.

I agree with you generally. I haven't heard REM's new stuff, so I can't comment of that specifically, but I admire a band or musician that makes music that works for them, even if it isn't commercially viable.

I was at a show for a band I like and all the people next to me wanted to hear was the band's "hits" from 15 years ago. That band had put out seven albums during those 15 years and is certainly no nostalgia act. Irritating that so many people won't even give their new work a chance.

(unfortunately the band I saw isn't loaded financially, so they are paying a heavy price for making the music that they love.)

 

[blueeyedgirl]

I saw REM play here in Australia the other night on the last night of this leg of their world tour. (they go to Europe for the northern summer). It was as Michael said "the first gig of their 25th year" and I thought REM, and Michael in particular, rocked! This was despite the whole band being hungover from going out and celebrating their 25th anniversary the night before (and I'm peeved taht I didn't think that they might be out and about in Adelaide on a Tuesday night - gah! )

The set list was a mix of everything really, stuff like Walk Unafraid, Heron House, etc for the die-hards, all teh big hits for the "fans" and quite a few of the Around the Sun ones, which worked much better live than I had thought. I bought that recently and played it non stop in my car for about 3 weeks and while, yes I thought it was a pile of steaming shite at first, I really like it now. There are very thoughtful songs on there, and I agree Around the sun (track) is a really good song (and I thought it would have made a really good closer ie before the encore (they for some reason went with Losing my Religion instead! )

And Michael is a really confident front man now. He didn't talk all that much before the encore, but then he really opened up about them and their anniversary, they celebrated their sound guy's birthday and while the band did have that hungover state about them, they seemed really appreciative of the crowd's (well the front few rows maybe!) enthusiasm.

As for them being great, not being great, every single interview I ever read with Peter Buck from the very beginning has always had him saying he never wanted to be mega-famous. He went through the publicity, photo etc bullshit cos he has to for his job, but that was never their focus. Hell, Mike getting the Nudie suits is the closest they've ever got to an "image"! With their current contract, they have artistic control over whatever they do. They have tasted real fame with Everybody Hurts etc and my guess is they didn't enjoy the experience and are not interested in repeating it. Michael is the only one who really inhabits that world and my impression from his interviews is that it took him a lot of years to get used to it.

I reckon they are a band that got mega famous DESPITE themselves.

 

[bsp77]

I sow REM in concert last January, and what a bleek experience has that been. If they don't care about critics and fans while making an album, they should really care about them when doing a concert, and try to make a great atmosfere, and not play 8 new, unreleased songs, that most of the people in the concert aren't aware of.
That is what makes U2 a great band, they ROCK live what makes being on their concert an out-of-this-planet experience!

Wrong. Most of those 8 "new, unreleased" songs were from Around the Sun, which you obviously haven't listened to. Not that great of an album, but that's not the point. This is the same thing U2 does. They have only been playing one or two actual new songs each concert. Come to think of it, I wish U2 would do that.

BTW, I saw them in October and they are still great live, even if their albums have gone downhill.

 

[jkid]

Yeah, I saw them play live here in Florida for Vote For Change. They were good but not great, Bruce Springsteen stole the show right under them. I really, really, love them but, their new record is not that good. Ever since they lost Bill, they seem to be going downhill. I hope they get back on track.