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Old 07-28-2005, 03:33 AM   #76
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Old 07-28-2005, 05:31 AM   #77
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Aren't they!!
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Old 07-28-2005, 07:38 AM   #78
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Originally posted by Saracene
F###&&K!!!

I've just finished the fourth book and was SO determined to stay away from the spoilers... and then some complete asshole on IMDB.com movie boards goes and posts under the name "snapekillsdumbledore". Arghhhhhhh! I'm really upset now; always liked Snape despite him being a bastard.
I hate those assholes. That is why I made it very clear that this thread had spoilers.

I am very sorry. Keep reading though, you will still enjoy Book 5 and 6.
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Old 07-28-2005, 10:06 PM   #79
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I dont know that Dumbledore DID completely trust Snape in that, Dumbledore is the wisest and most clever of certainly the 2 of them, and arguably in the entire wizarding world - yet, Dumbledore appointed him the job of Defence Against the Dark Arts knowing full well that no teacher has ever lasted in that role for more than a year since Riddle left, and along with that, also took his first real opportunity to learn Harry on the history of Riddle/Voldemort and educate him in order to help Harry eventually beat him. I wonder if in some yet undisclosed way, Dumbledore (knowing that he was bloody old and it would soon enough be the end regardless) knew that the year's end would see most likely Dumbledore's own end/retirement/incapacitation, Snape's coming to a crossroads (in choosing alliance fully with the Order, or fully with Voldemort), Harry coming of age and finally taking on the job of the Chosen One and thus taking Voldemort out or begining the process fully...

A lot of things dont add up. I know there are holes in my latest theory, but there seems to be holes in nearly everything. Some glaring. Slytherin produces more Dark wizards than any of the other houses. Snape is tied to this house in more than just the role of Head of House.

I think Malfoy will take on interesting developments as the next book progresses. His bidding to a Dark Lord who has absolutely no interest in saving his father will come to a head, as Malfoy has already shown he lacks the gumption needed to be one of Voldemort's true right hands'. His mother is also causing him to get torn between loyalties.

Your point about DD (for DumbleDore) assiging Snape the Defense Against the Dark Arts (DADA) job is a good one. Everyone knew that no one has held that position for more than a year. So after all these years, why give it to Snape now? What made this year special?

Also interesting was that because of Snape's transfer to that position, Harry was now able to take all the classes necessary to become an Auror. Hmmm.... How convenient!

Clearly there was quite a bit of planning going on here. The argument Snape had with DD (that Hagrid overheard) suggests that DD and Snape had made their own version of the "Unbreakable Vow". Now, as that "vow" is dark in nature, DD would never have made one with Snape. DD was all about doing good - never once using the Unforgivable Curses against people (otherwise, he probably would've been able to kill Voldemort years ago). But DD clearly trusted Snape -and this trust made have meant DD was "pleading" with Snape to kill him - per their pre-arranged agreement (hence the argument) - when the time came. As you pointed out, DD was asking for Snape after drinking the potion, not anyone else. DD may have known the time was at hand for Snape to complete his promise to DD.

If you recall, to do any Unforgivable Curse, one really has to mean it. Hence, Snape *had* to have this look of other hatred in order to even attempt to perform the Avada Kedavra. But there is quite a bit of confusion here. After Snape said the curse, DD flew up in the air and over a railing (if I recall). When Voldemort did that same curse in Book 4 on poor Cedric, Cedric just keels over dead - no launching into the air. So why did DD fly up in the air? Also recall that DD has a HUGE connection with Pheonixes - and indeed, Harry saw what appeared to be a Pheonix leave DD's casket/grave/body. Lastly, the fact that Snape prevented anyone from attacking Harry, refused to take Harry with him (if Snape was truly serving Voldemort, why not just scoop up Harry and bring him to Voldemort?) and even "taught" Harry a final lesson (about using unspoken spells so that Harry won't be blocked) strongly suggests that, again, there was a pre-arranged agreement between DD and Snape. Snape had to "kill" DD in order to stay close to Voldemort, but this was part of the plan. All of this also suggests that we probably haven't seen the last of DD.

Finally, I feel DD didn't want poor Draco to be a "killer". DD even told Draco that he could be "protected" if Draco would just come behind DD (before Snape's attack). Hmmm... was Snape's attack on DD just a masquerade? Did the potion that DD drank actually protect him from Snape's curse - even though right not it appears otherwise? If Draco had stepped behind DD, would DD have created the illusion that Draco and DD were both killed? Perhaps DD was "pleading" with Snape to ensure that Snape not only fulfills his agreement with DD, but also prevents Draco from becoming a "killer".

As many have written, DD's death seems most ignoble and abrupt - especially for what is supposedly the most powerful wizard of the era. Why would DD have his last spell be an unspoken one to freeze Harry? What was the point in that? And even after Draco blasted DD's wand away, surely such a powerful wizard as DD could have scooped it right back up with an unspoken spell. Clearly DD wanted Harry "safe" and "out of the way" and wanted Snape to go through this whole apparent "charade" of killing him.

Rowling stated Draco and Harry will have to work together in Book 7, which makes sense. It appears that Voldemort cared little about Lucius (for his perceived bumbling) and Draco (Voldemort fully expected Draco to die in his attempt to kill DD). So Draco has no reason to be loyal to Voldemort. In fact, I'm sure Voldemort will be quite unhappy with Draco for not killing DD, even though DD is apparently dead. So all the more reason for Draco to fear for his life and side up with Harry in defeating Voldemort.

Lastly, I liked the idea someone mentioned about Neville even killing off Voldemort. Just because Voldemort *chose* Harry as his apparent equal and nemesis, doesn't mean he chose correctly. Maybe Neville is really the "chosen one" who will ultimately cast the final spell that kills Voldemort. Additionally, it appears that Aunt Petunia, who so loathes magic, may not be quite as innocent as she seems. It's already been revealed that she had a pact with DD. Perhaps she's a squibb? Or perhaps she does have some magical ability herself, but refused to accept it?

Book 7 should be quite interesting!
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Old 07-29-2005, 10:58 AM   #80
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Some of my lesser observations:

Glad to see Harry got the chip off his shoulder that he had in OotP. Granted, it's no fun being left out of the loop, and it had disastrous consequences in Book 5. Now that he's learning what is going on, he's also calmed down a great deal.

I like Professor Slughorn. It's nice to see a Slytherin who isn't "evil". Yes, he likes his creature comforts and playing politics, not to mention he's a bit cowardly and has a bit of hubris, but he seems to accept Muggle-borns and halfbloods as equal to purebloods, and he certainly isn't the bullying teacher that Snape was. Perhaps if he'd been the potions master all this time, Neville might've had a better chance at mastering Potions?

Did anyone else find it incredibly ironic (if not downright funny) that Lord "Pure-Bloods Are Best" Voldemort comes from horribly inbred stock?! What good is being "pure-blooded" if your family looks and acts like a bunch of extras from the X-Files episode Home?!
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Old 07-29-2005, 03:19 PM   #81
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Unless Slughorn really *is* evil, took the polyjuice potion, and killed Dumbledore...
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Old 07-29-2005, 07:34 PM   #82
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Quote:
Originally posted by Sue DeNym

Did anyone else find it incredibly ironic (if not downright funny) that Lord "Pure-Bloods Are Best" Voldemort comes from horribly inbred stock?! What good is being "pure-blooded" if your family looks and acts like a bunch of extras from the X-Files episode Home?!
Throughout the book I couldn't help thinking that Rowling was making a kind of indibtment on the British Class system/snobbery--you know, people try to keep the blood pure, royal, whatever, and end up marrying relatives just to do so.

Also, about Aunt Petunia being a Squib, I originally thought this could be a possibility, but then I remembered that Harry's maternal grandparents were both Muggles so that would be impossible (unless there is some twist that one/both of Lilly's parents were themselves Squibs, but that's very unlikley.)

I also think that DD is gone for good. I know that Snape really had to mean it when he used Avada Kadavra...and I think he DID really mean it. He really did want DD dead because he knew that was the only way for the Order to accomplish their plans, he just didn't want him dead out of malice or hatred.
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Old 07-30-2005, 06:06 AM   #83
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Why would it be impossible for Aunt Petunia to be a squib? Was there something in one of the other books about this? I really need to go back and read some more. I can't remember the squib bit. Harry's mother is a witch and she is from the same family and aren't Hermoine's parents both Muggles?
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Old 07-30-2005, 10:23 AM   #84
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Heeeere's an interesting thought. Can people be made into Horcruxes? What if, in killing Lily, Harry became the last Horcrux? After all, he did transfer some of himself into Harry...
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Old 07-30-2005, 12:34 PM   #85
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Some people on the HP boards around the 'net have speculated the same thing, UnforgettableLemon. But it seems risky to make a living thing a horcrux. Of course, it could've been accidental - maybe when the spell (Avada Kedavra) rebounded on Voldemort it also made Harry a horcrux.

This whole idea of horcruxes are, of course, new to Book 6. And Rowling didn't really explain them well (how they are made, how one actually "tears apart" his/her soul, etc.). But it is nice how she's connecting Book 6 with events from Book 2 (the diary). Shows a nice stream of thought and connects everything.

I was just glad that Harry was over his angst in Book 6. I couldn't take any more whining from Book 5.
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Old 07-30-2005, 07:01 PM   #86
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Quote:
Originally posted by Tania
Why would it be impossible for Aunt Petunia to be a squib? Was there something in one of the other books about this? I really need to go back and read some more. I can't remember the squib bit. Harry's mother is a witch and she is from the same family and aren't Hermoine's parents both Muggles?
I was under the impression that to be a Squib (which is different than being a straight out Muggle, I think) one had to have a magical parent. But I guess nothing ever says that you can't be a Squib from Muggle parents, just as you can be a witch or wizard from Muggle parents.
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Old 07-30-2005, 08:01 PM   #87
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yeah, if Aunt Petunia was non-magical from Muggle parents, wouldn't she simply be a Muggle as well?

Anyway, interesting thoughts guys, especially the one about Harry being the final Horcrux. If I hear "Your mother died to save you and Voldemort transferred some of his power to you" one more time, I think I'll be sick. But that theory would definitely add even more meaning to it.

On second thought though, it doesn't really make sense. Why would he put part of his soul into the person he's trying to kill? We need to know more about Horcruxes and how they work...
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Old 07-30-2005, 09:26 PM   #88
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Quote:
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Some people on the HP boards around the 'net have speculated the same thing, UnforgettableLemon. But it seems risky to make a living thing a horcrux. Of course, it could've been accidental - maybe when the spell (Avada Kedavra) rebounded on Voldemort it also made Harry a horcrux.

This whole idea of horcruxes are, of course, new to Book 6. And Rowling didn't really explain them well (how they are made, how one actually "tears apart" his/her soul, etc.). But it is nice how she's connecting Book 6 with events from Book 2 (the diary). Shows a nice stream of thought and connects everything.

I was just glad that Harry was over his angst in Book 6. I couldn't take any more whining from Book 5.
I'm such a sucker for tragedy... I've always felt that Harry's death would legitimize everything... Voldemort ultimately kills Harry because Harry can't find the last Horcrux, inadvertantly leaving himself vulnerable to... Neville! It all comes together! MWahahahaha....


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Old 07-30-2005, 10:54 PM   #89
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Just finished the book. Thank God it was sooo much better than the fifth one, which I found frankly plodding despite some really interesting stuff popping in here and there ("Snape's Worst Memory" was a huge surprise). Despite knowing the ending beforehand, DD's death was still devastating to actually read about,

How sweet was it with Bill and Fleur??

Snape... gah what a dark horse! I'm not sure at all what's his deal at this point and what side he's really on. On one hand, Dumbledore does acknowledge to Harry that when he makes a mistake, it tends to be a huge one. And all the previous books repeatedly made it look like Snape is guilty only to clear him again and again at the end - is this the book where his true nature is shown?

On the other hand, despite DD's remarked-on fondness for giving people second chances, I just can't believe that he would make a mistake of trusting someone who is so obviously skilled at lying and pretending (like any good double agent) without a rock-hard reason. There just got to be more to why DD believed Snape to be on their side than what was revealed to Harry so far. Otherwise Dumbledore comes off as, well, really dumb, responding to continuous doubts and accusations by sticking his fingers in his ears and going "lalalala not listening", so to speak. Plus, Dumbledore to me always appeared as someone who's always planning and thinking miles ahead. And like many people pointed out there're many oddities there like his unexplained argument with Snape and what it is exactly Snape didn't want to do anymore; or his baffling pleading at the end; or Snape giving Harry what sounded frankly like a lesson on unspoken spells (nasty and sarcastic one, sure, but that's Snape we're talking about). I just don't know,

One theory I have, if Snape really did go back to the good over his remorse for what happened to Harry's parents, could it be that he had feelings for Lily, Harry's Mum? I know he called her a Mudblood in the memory Harry saw, but if you went by that memory alone Lily and James had as much chance of ending up together as snowball surviving in hell, yet they did eventually. And although Snape always says nothing but hateful things about Harry's father, did he ever badmouth Harry's mother? I know it's all probably far-fetched, but I just can't see why else his telling the prophecy would turn out to be the biggest regret of his life - provided that it really was, of course.
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Old 07-31-2005, 06:07 PM   #90
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Holy crap, lol. The next book better spend the whole 600 pages explaining all these questions!
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