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Old 07-23-2007, 12:26 AM   #121
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Originally posted by anitram


Mine too! I think he's the most three-dimensional character in the book. I suppose now an argument for Dumbledore can be made as well, but because we found out everything about his backstory posthumously, it isn't quite the same as Snape.

I do wonder, though, how much of my love is related to Alan Rickman. I think he's absolutely fantastic - the best cast actor in the series. I loved Snape from the very first book onward, but Rickman made him so wonderful to watch and brought him to life. He's definitely made the character better for me, and his portrayal of Snape is exactly as I'd have imagined it to be.
That's a good point you make about Dumbledore. I hadn't even considered my feelings on him yet. But now that you mention it, I found myself getting a bit angry with him in this book, the more I discovered about him. I had never imagined that there might have been anything less than saintly about Dumbledore. I'm glad J.K. Rowling included those back details, though, as it really added further dimension to his character.

Alan Rickman's great. He has truly captured the essence of his character, which is a lot more than can be said for most of the other actors in those movies. I'm not overly fond of the way he draaaags everythingggg ouuuut, but that's minor.
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Old 07-23-2007, 12:26 AM   #122
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Originally posted by PlaTheGreat




Because Harry Potter has sold more than any other childhood best seller, maybe? It's not like Rowling went out of her way to make Harry Potter into a media giant. It's because the books are well written and the characters are loved by old and young alike that it has become famous. Much like all other books, or artists, or musicians or any other form of "famous" creative talent.

The majority of things don't become famous just because a small group of people decide it will be that way. Sometimes it genuinely is just that good and universal that a large chunk of the population will swear by it.
Ok I will back down. Thank You Plathegreat.
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Old 07-23-2007, 12:27 AM   #123
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Great. Then you know how easy it was to avoid all the HP hype. I am a current events freak and I didn't have to work at all to avoid the coverage.

If you are sick of it, you must have gone looking for the coverage.
My friend asked me to go with him to the book release event. It was insane.
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Old 07-23-2007, 12:29 AM   #124
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Have a good vacation, Justin.
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Old 07-23-2007, 12:31 AM   #125
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I am going to meet Muggsy in Colombia by the way.
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Old 07-23-2007, 01:18 AM   #126
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Wow. Thanks a lot people for actually taking the time to some SERIOUS LITERARY analysis of the book. (*sarcastic*) I can't wait until people like Varitek and Utoo get (back) on here. Thanks to everyone who agree with me on Snape.

FYI, Tolkien and CS Lewis didn't become Tolkien and CS Lewis until 50 yrs later, if you get what I mean. And I've read that back in the day, the critics absolutely LOATHED Lewis Carroll. They thought Alice was juvenile hogwash and early 20th century critics nwards accused him of being a pedophile since Alice was based on a neigbor's 9 yr old daughter that he liked to watch playing in a garden. The 19th-century critics verbally flushed Carroll down the chamber pot, comparing him unfavororably to Dickens. Is "Through The Looking Glass" any better/worse than, say, "Oliver Twist'? Or, for that matter, "The Hobbit"? If you're comparing HP unfavorabloy with LOTR, that's crap. Is HP better or worse than "The Hobbit" (which is the origional Tolkien classic and many people still like that best among all his works, precisely b/c LOTR is too dark for them?) I'm going to commit absolute heresy here, and I'm speaking from someone who has read all of Tolkien and all Of CS Lewis, right down to Peralendra and the Screwtape Letters. HP may be light years behind Tolkien (if you judge great works of literature by literary style) but it is much better than Narnia, Christian allusions and all. The wizarding world is just as big of a place as Narnia and Lewis starts off well with the first 3 books, but books 4-6 are poorly written and esp Book 6 of the Narnia series is a dense and confusing thinly vieled anti-Muslim screed that I find personally offensive, that tarnishes the whole series for me. Forget the fact that the whole Pevensie family dies in a train wreck at the end, and we find out who Aslan is. Better to not dip your toe into the religion matter at all. Rowling is like Tolkien in that her characters have no one to pray to, but they spend their whole time in the series "praying" if you get my drift. I don't care about religion in lterature, I don't usually pick up on it I don't cast judgements, but Lewis is so blunt and in your face about it, in later parts of the Narnia Chronichles. Somer books of HP are better than others but some flaws other writers have are missing.

And as far as being juvenile goes, DH is NOT I repeat *NOT* a kids book. I am absolutely shocked at how much Jo pushed the envelope in this one, and I am only starting to read the first half of the book! I read some of the stuff floating around on the spoilers this week and thought some of the "reviews" was utter crap, but it's true, and I haven't even finished the book. Rita Skeeter insinuating, in a book (BRILLIANT bit of satire, compare the traditional "old" obit from a serious journalist and the Rita Skeeter article in Chapter 2, can anyone say TINA BROWN people?!?!? Yesterday's serious journaslism compared to today's infotainment) that Dumbledore sexually abused Harry and threatened him to keep him silent (like the Catholic priest scandal), and that Harry finally killed him in his 6th year in revenege/to make it stop. This isn't even interpretation, Jo openly uses pharses like "unhealty relationship, even sinister.....Dumbledore took an unnatural interest in young Harry from the word go....I wonder if it has been in Harry's best interests..... it's no secret that he has had a most troubled adolescence." And the fact that Harry clearly gets what she is saying just adds whole new dimension to the wizarding world, doesn't it?? And someone talked about a wet dream/i.e,. possible masturbation "hint" and I thought the poster was off his rocker, but even I was able to pick up on it. In the 2nd page of "The Flaw In The Plan" (and I still am not able to figure this chapter out??) Harry awakens and he is naked, and he hears a thumping noise and Rowling says he felt as if he were spying on something shameful and indecent. New paragraph. "For the first time, he wished he were clothed.." New paragraph.....Robes suddenly appeared and he put them on. "They were soft, clean, and warm." And how it was funny that they had appeared the instant he had wished for them...why would Jo drop in that little fact about them being clean? I know, Teta, get your mind out of the freakin gutter, but believe me, you don't expect this stuff when reading HP! It just jumps out at you!

I haven't been online yet to see the reaction...have yet to finish the first half of the book.....

But thank you Jack in the Box, I know....wonder if anyone else on here will see the same things I did...Does anyone else have some *SERIOUS* reactions here?

PS Alan Rickman. I am turning cartwheels trying to picture his performance in Film 7!! (Damn, HE gets the great death scene! ) Jo does not tell us the expression on Snape's face at the moment of his death, when he is looking into "Lilys' eyes.....could Rickman have it look a bit adoring just for that one moment, so we can clearly see he is picturing someone else? And BTW, HOW are they going to tone this down? He dies pouring his last thoughts into a basin, silvery blue (SILVERYagain, the Patronus allusion).

One thing though..I managed to get my hands on one of the Deluxe Editions, the one with the FANTASTIC Mary Grandpre illustration of the Trio flying on a dragon on the cover, with the enlarged chapter title sketches in the back/captyions, and the full-color illustration of Snape and Yaxley walking thru the gates of Malfoy Manor from Chapter 1 pg 2. If we didn't know Snape had a shampoo problem, we'd take a look at that pic and say that damn, Snape is HOT, in a piratey sort of way. Rickman is fantastic but this pic throws things in a whole newlight (sorry, I don't know how to post it....and the story of how I got a Deluxe Edition is a saga in itself)
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Old 07-23-2007, 03:06 AM   #127
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Um, I'll put this in the cinematic Harry Potter ZooStation thread too, but only if you want me to?

I'd LOVE to see Howard Shore score Film 7, b/c Film 7 is the kind of thing that CRIES OUT for a grand cinematic score, but also, for one of great subtelty as well. Esp when it comes to Snape. I'm thinking of the Aragron and Arwen scene in Rivendell, the one where they are talking on the bridge. (That scene was Viggo Mortensen's idea BTW...of course it's not in the book.) In this scene, we hear a woman's voice, Enya's, singing in Elvish as backdrop to their conversation. If you take the time to look up the lyrics interpretation, the lyrics say "Ai! Anorie Undomiel" ("Oh! I desire [Arwen] Undomiel." So while the woman's singing voice is upon first mental "glance" Arwen's, the words are Aragorn's, and the two are as beautifully musically linked onscreen as they are visually.
I'd love to see Shore, or whoever odes the score, do the same thing for Lily/Snape. They HAVE to put "The Silver Doe" in, b/c it not only flahsed back to Cuaron's scene in POA, but b/c this chapter has a major plot point and a GREAT Ron scene--the doe leads Harry to the Horcrux, which Ron destroys after going through some weird mental Tom Riddle crap of his own. This will be a great "development" scene for Ron. It visually links with Snape's death,Snape becomes Headmaster so you can't tone him down. At first he is another Umbrdge but we see better. But more importantly, even the suits at Warner Brothers must be CRYING THEIR FREAKING EYES OUT like everyone else, and esp Kloves and David Heymann. They will BEG to have all the Snape allusions put in. And if "The Silver Doe" is in, so is Chapter 34 in, Harry walking to his possible death, the four ghosts, it leads into the next scene.

If "The Silver Doe" is in, then here's my ideal score. When the doe walks up to Harry's tent, there should be no music, just soft strings (hopefully a violin) and then just a woman's voice singing no words, just notes a capella, then music beginning softly as Harry follows the doe through the forest. This is Lily's theme, and as the film goes on, just as in the book, it will become Snape's theme too, as they are gradually more and more linked,in a subtle but powerful way, that should not become apparent until several viewings of the film, just like rereading the book. This beautful cue shoukd appear three times: in the doe scene, at the moment of Snape's death (just as John Williams has a phrase from the Imperial March play on a *harp* at the moment of Vader's death in ROTJ. ) It should be a very short strings phrase when Snape dies, not the womans' voice (that would both be too explicit, giving away too much too early, but also too maudlin, it's SNAPE!!) and then again during the final fight when Harry tells Voldemort about the Patronus, but this time it should be the womans' voice, so the viewer will go back to the forest and the doe, and also to the ghosts in the forest before the fight--oh yeah i forgot about this. This woiuld be great and very effective sp in the middle of all the grand dark music, like for Harry Lily is an oasis of calm and strength. I used to think a Ginny theme would be great but this is better. The Ginny theme should have a slight resemblance to the Lily/Snape/doe one though.
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Old 07-23-2007, 03:10 AM   #128
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Oh, and BTW, I'm thinking that this week the Good Lord will have to temporarily waive the Seventh Commandment, because if He kept an accurate count of all the times people are saying "OH MY GOD!!!!!" right now, one out of every 100 people (maybe more?) on the planet would be going to hell.

PS. It just HIT ME....Harry's son....Albus Severus. Harry told him that he was named after a Headmaster, a brave man. He doesn't say another reason.....Snape of course never had any kids so Harry remembers him this way. And he names his kids after Dumbledore and the Murauders. In Chapter 34, I theorized that if you chose to, Rowling has made it possible to for you imagine Snape's "ghost" walking beside the Murauders. The otherwise..um....well, I'm still making up my mind about the Epilogue....??? Huh?......The Epilogue is a bit of a "link"to the chapters as well. Kings Cross station links the last chapter too. So the Epilogue isn't a total literary waste....
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Old 07-23-2007, 04:16 AM   #129
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Quote:
Originally posted by anitram
I do wonder, though, how much of my love is related to Alan Rickman. I think he's absolutely fantastic - the best cast actor in the series. I loved Snape from the very first book onward, but Rickman made him so wonderful to watch and brought him to life. He's definitely made the character better for me, and his portrayal of Snape is exactly as I'd have imagined it to be.
I'm probably in the vast minority, but while I love Alan Rickman as an actor he just ain't Snape, for me, although it also has to do with the way Snape is written in the films. Book!Snape is younger, skinnier, greasier, uglier and way way nastier, with a genuine cruel streak. I'm also sure that he never had Rickman's make-womenof-all-ages-weak-at-the-knees voice,
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Old 07-23-2007, 05:04 AM   #130
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Saracene, Snape doesn't develop a cruel streak until the 2nd Occlumency scene in Film 5. Throwing Harry across the room is quite cruel enough for me, it has a bigger impact b/c we aren't expeciting anything like it, if he had been similarily cruel throughout the previous 4 films it wouldn't hit us this hard. And he will get worse onscreen, in Film 6. And concerning Rickman's voice, hey, it's Hollywood, isn't it? He's got to have something! And see my earlier description/post about the color portrait of Snape by Mary Grandpre from the U.S. Deluxe Edition. That's canon. The book Snape, then, is a lot better looking than the film Snape, I looked at this illustration and thought, "If only he didn't have a hygeine problem!" Dangit, I wish I knew how to post this, oh well, it has to be up on one of the websites.

One more thing I'm picking up....IT"S LATE....MUST GO TO BED, but can't stop flippng back and forth in the book.....I've just finished Chapter 2 and am still shocked about what Jo put in the Rita Skeeter article on Dumbledore. The allegations of the "unnatural relationship" Dumbledore, according to Rita, had with Harry. Now something was tickling my brain, I made that last post about the possible "wet dream/masturbation" ref from Chapter 36 that some idiot had talked about in a spoiler forum last week. I though this guy was nuts, but there it is, as Kreacher would say, "as bold as brass." In Chapter 2, Jo is writing a satire on the New Journalism, she is making a savage commentary on infotainment and people like Tina Brown. Dropping one little hint and then having it snowball. Well, in Chapter 36, with the infamous "naked" scene, (and this is all a dream? Out of body experience? Huh? I STILL can't figure this out) Harry throws on the robes and soon after that, who approaches? Dumbledore. The whole chapter is ....one big talk between Harry and Dumbledore. Now, if Jo is making the ultimate savage protest about all the real-life Rita Skeeters out there, then she is HOPING you'll instantly make the link between the Rita article--specifically the "unhealty relationship" paragraph from Rita's article ---and the "naked" stuff in this chapter, the one about the long conversation between Harry and Dumbledore. This "link"you own't get until you read the book several times, and then one time you'll read that "naked"scene in 36, know that's all aobut harry and DUmbledore, and then you'll instantly go back ot Rita's article...the tow chapters are further bookended by the Rita one being the second chapter, and the "Flaw In The Plan", the second to last....And if you recoil in horror that that could even BE a link between the two chapters in this way, (because you of course it's all a lie by Rita to sell more books!) that is precisely what Jo wants you to do....put the thought out of your mind. And then hopefully the message about the Rita Skeeters of this world will sink in. Maybe she's anticipating her own "revisionist history" obit someday, just as she was commenting about fame with the invention of the Lockhart character.

And now, I must really get to bed....I hope someone else can see the Silver Doe stuff, though. What do you al lthink?
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Old 07-23-2007, 08:25 AM   #131
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Teta your analysis was great. I also like the movies you mentioned, and I get your meaning. There is so much in this series if people will only look.
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Old 07-23-2007, 02:41 PM   #132
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I just finished this, and successfully avoided this thread for a few days.

I'll have to read the long posts and get back to you guys.
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Old 07-23-2007, 02:42 PM   #133
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Quote:
Originally posted by Teta040
Harry awakens and he is naked, and he hears a thumping noise and Rowling says he felt as if he were spying on something shameful and indecent. New paragraph. "For the first time, he wished he were clothed.." New paragraph.....Robes suddenly appeared and he put them on. "They were soft, clean, and warm." And how it was funny that they had appeared the instant he had wished for them...why would Jo drop in that little fact about them being clean? I know, Teta, get your mind out of the freakin gutter, but believe me, you don't expect this stuff when reading HP! It just jumps out at you!
Actually the "For the first time, he wished he were clothed.." comes across as very Garden of Eden to me. Not sure if that's what she intended, but it was the first thing that crossed my mind. though I'll also admit the indecent thumping made me think of masturbation too did we ever find out the point of that creature? Was it supposed to represent Voldermort's Horcrux in Harry, or what? Perhaps I should re-read that chapter. It was definitely the most intriguing of the entire book, perhaps even the whole series.

Also, what do you all think of Harry performing some Unforgivable Curses? I suppose he had no other choice, but it does seem a bit odd that he was able to perform them so well and seemed to not think twice about it, isn't it?
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Old 07-23-2007, 03:24 PM   #134
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Wow. Thanks a lot people for actually taking the time to some SERIOUS LITERARY analysis of the book. (*sarcastic*) I can't wait until people like Varitek and Utoo get (back) on here.
Geeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeez.
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Old 07-23-2007, 05:09 PM   #135
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Originally posted by AtomicBono


Also, what do you all think of Harry performing some Unforgivable Curses? I suppose he had no other choice, but it does seem a bit odd that he was able to perform them so well and seemed to not think twice about it, isn't it?
I was actually waiting for this thread to come back later in the book. It seemed significant that Harry performed two of the three curses and was sure that Avada Kedavra would make an appearance. Oh well.

I almost wish the epilogue wasn't included. It added absolutely nothing for me.
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