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Old 07-29-2007, 04:24 PM   #211
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Originally posted by Teta040
oh, and Varitek, one last thought. Why does Harry name one of his children--the one who looks just like him, right down to the eyes--after Snape, and tell him the "bravest man" line. JK can go on TV and argue all she wants, but in the book, she has Harry performing the ultimate act of forgiveness, and she can't go back and change her own "contradictory testimony" so to speak. What kind of message is she trying to send?

She has Harry, at least, honoring him in a way, one that he did not merit, and which the outright Snape haters no doubt were aghast at when they read the Epilogue. What was Harry doing? Was he really so soft-minded and niave? After all, he suffered more than any from the abuse of Snape, and if he of all people had the capacitiy to forgive....I too had the initial reaction of "one act of heroism does not cancel out 7 yrs of abuse" , but Jo has not addressed this issue, so I have to think that she, like me, is of conflciting minds.

And Dumbledore's initial reaction of "disgust" was tempered over time, to the point where he later said, "sometimes I think we sort too soon", etc. Does that mean he changed his mind ? Absolutely not. But it shows that Dumbledore at least had come to the conclusion that he was making sicere efforts at redemption...
It's not like Dumbledore was still a pure hero in Harry's mind, and that was the kid's first name. Both Dumbledore and Snape had helped Harry on his way (DD more obviously) and had died for him and for the end of Voldemort, as well as making other sacrifices besides dying. Sorting too soon referred to Snape's clear display of bravery. In terms of a message, I think that hte morality of the books isn't always the same as Harry's opinion on morality or other characters. Naming the kid provided a sort of closure for Harry, if not for us, on Snape. Also, Snape was indeed brave, he did sacrifice for Harry. So he deserved that honor in Harry's mind, I'm sure there are lots of other kids running around that school 19 years later with names of those who died in that war. (there best be a little Fred...grrr) It's not black and white, it's not supposed to be black and white. I was a little repulsed by the kid being named Severus personally, but I understood why Harry did it, and why Jo did it.


Might get into my office this week or next. I don't really follow NY politics other than that, because I'm just here for the summer and I follow my home politics of Massachusetts, where I still feel locally invested.


Quote:
Originally posted by Butterscotch
Then who's the heir of Gryffindor??
Nobody, as it should be. They are "true Gryffindors" but the only one who really cared about being an heir and lineage and such is Voldemort. Caring about lineage and heirs is putting Muggle-borns on a lower plane - exactly what we are told is wrong.

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Originally posted by FitzChivalry
I'm kind of torn on Harry going to work for the Ministry of Magic.

On the one hand, I can see that's obviously where his greatest talent lies, as an Auror, and that rather than ignore the system that failed him, he takes a position there to try and change "the system" and does eventually (and rather conveniently and too neatly) change it.

But still I have that nagging irritation that not once in all his dealings with the Ministry, did it ever come through for him (and I'm talking about even BEFORE it was taken over by Voldemort). And it still continued to employ people like Umbridge. Of course, it also employed Mr. Weasley, as well. And I just wonder if a huge governmental entity and bureauocracy, like the Ministry, could really change so drastically in under 19 years because of 3 people.

My first choice for his career would be as a Seeker on a professional Quidditch team. Aside from being an Auror, I think playing Seeker is his second greatest skill. Next, I would rather he take up the DADA position at Hogwarts. Also, this would again illustrate the complete difference between Harry and Voldemort because Harry would be able to take on and accomplish what Voldemort wanted to and never could.

Maybe it's just me, but working for the corrupt Ministry just makes my skin crawl.
The nice thing is that we see that it isn't a problem with the institution but with the people running it. Umbridge was the Dick Cheney meets Goebbels villain, and Scrimgeour was even more interesting, a guy who wanted to do good and died protecting Harry but who was terrible at leading government and prefered misinformation and persecuting the innocent to real progress. Though she planned the books years ago she clearly took some inspiration from certain world leaders for these characters. And once they are gone, once good people like Kingsley take over, once all those like the Weasleys and other good non-order emmbers who were too scared to do anything under Voldemort's regime (because bad as the ministry was in 5 and 6, you must remember it was Voldemort running it in 7) were able to resume working and flush the death eaters and their sympathizers out, the institution was fine with good people running it.

I like to think that Harry took a few years off to play pro seeker either right before or right after he finished school (if he needed to finish school) and then went off to be an Auror when he was ready to go back into that line of work, after he'd had his much-needed escape. But it's Jo's story so she'll tell us in the encyclopedia (fingers crossed!!).

Quote:
Originally posted by Utoo
Thus, Harry has seen what LV would become without remorse---he has seen "dead." Still, I need to read the remorse bits again....
I don't fully understand this bit yet, but I know it has something to do with the Horcruxes. In book 6 Dumbledore tells Harry that Horcruxes can be undone and the soul can be healed if the maker truly feels remorse, real remorse, which can be very, very painful. (Just as this remorse is necessary to atone for any murder.) So Harry I think was giving Voldemort one last chance to recall those pieces of himself, though what I don't get is that aren't all of them destroyed, or was the one that was part of Harry and then the baby under the chair not destroyed until Voldemort killed himself? So I'm not totally sure about that part but hope the extra info helps a little. I can't wait to have time to reread the whole series at once, with knowledge of the 7th book.
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Old 07-30-2007, 03:58 AM   #212
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Merlin's thong!! Utoo, and everyone, all I can say is....WOW

I am seriously committed to finishing the book by Wednesday (I'm deliberately going slow) can't write one of my encyclopedia-length replies....but just to touch on a couple things VERY briefly....

Utoo: about King's Cross....I am still trying to figure out all this, and you make as good a stab at it as any. I don't think anyone will be able to figure out why the baby is under a chair but allI can think of is pg 180-181 where Harry finds the photo of himself at age 1, right before he is marked with the scar, lying under a dresser in Sirius's bedroom....

Ditto on origional plans but current inspiration from current world leaders. Ha ha....and having all the real baddies such as Rita survive is fitting. That's the way it works today, in the real world....

Varitek, I see you have relanteda bit on Snape. Can we come to a truce? Jo pretty much pointed to my line of thinking in the Dateline NBC interview today...someone can post the link....and you're from MA? Ok, I excuse your political ignorance...

There's a story on Mugglenet that Alfonso Cuaron is currently reading DH and has expressed an interest in directing it. A lot of book purists are reacting with howls of outrage. Personally, I would love gthe idea...and YES I know POA the book! Frankly I am more concerned about the possibilty of Yates directing DH...he did a very good job with OOTP but too much was left out. (I mean, can't we have seen JUST ONE glimpse of Mrs Black? Can't Tonks have said "Wotcher" or Moody "CONSANT VIGILANCE!" These are things that take only one second....and by far the biggest sin: NOT SEEING LILY'S FACE AT ALL DURING SNAPE'S WORST MEMORY, a scene only, what , TEN SECONDS LONG? If a director could be found who matches Cuaron's artistic flair and film legnth with Yates's being the Master of Darkness....


And to the poster who actually thinks HP is better than LOTR....what can I say..I won't even address this. You have obviously not read The Silmarillion or any of the 12-volume History of Middle Earth. The incredible vastness and commplexity of ME, the languages, etc...and the characters, the story covering thousands of years! HP in my mind is almost as good. And that's a very close almost. And that's saying a lot, given Tolkien's place in world literature. As for wrapping up the series too nicely and twee, you obviously haven't read the Appendices. What happens to Aragorn and Arwen? What, for that matter, ultimately happens to Gimli? (I REFUSE to spoil this.) Do you even know what the Grey Havens are? People who think Frodo just "dies" and goes to Heaven.....it's more complicated than that. He is mortal, so he cannot stay in the Blessed Realm. That place is just a temporary place of healing for his body and mind.....but in the end, he still has to die. I didn't understand this, for years and years, after reading the books....and the theme of the changing world, and of how we are living the Seventh or Eighth Age, in a sense....


anyway, have to run....I have just finished the chapter with Dobby's funeral, when everyone put their socks/hats/ CLOTHES on him before putting him in the grave...I LOST IT.....hope to reach where I started my first reading from, pg 550, Tues, and re-read the last chapters asap....
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Old 07-30-2007, 06:08 AM   #213
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I think it's pretty pointless to compare LoTR to HP in the first place, but personally speaking I vastly prefer the latter though I do love the LoTR films. Sure, I can admire Tolkien's imagination and the sheer scope and detail of his creation - but I find his prose dry and dull and, with the exception of Gollum and maybe Sam, I just really couldn't give a damn about the rest of his characters. JKR may not be much of a stylist and sometimes her overuse of adverbs drives me nuts but at least she gave me characters I could care about.
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Old 07-30-2007, 12:22 PM   #214
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I'm only on page five of this thread, but best part (or one of the top five) was Mrs. Weasly throwing down!

I'm pretty happy with the book, the epilogue was too neatly tied up and I'm still pissy that Severus had to die, but get why. I teared up over Hedwig and Dobby the most.

I really can't wait to see how the movie of this turns out. I want it to be no holds barred, but we'll see when we get there.
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Old 07-30-2007, 12:35 PM   #215
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Quote:
Originally posted by Saracene
I think it's pretty pointless to compare LoTR to HP in the first place, but personally speaking I vastly prefer the latter though I do love the LoTR films. Sure, I can admire Tolkien's imagination and the sheer scope and detail of his creation - but I find his prose dry and dull and, with the exception of Gollum and maybe Sam, I just really couldn't give a damn about the rest of his characters. JKR may not be much of a stylist and sometimes her overuse of adverbs drives me nuts but at least she gave me characters I could care about.

I've always said that I appreciate the fact that HP was written with a woman's (stereotype) sensibility. While I love the LotR and Narnia chronicles for their philosophy, brilliance, and characters, I love HP for the characters, brilliance, and philosophy.

The difference lies in the authors priorities in my opinion. JKR is/was more concerned with her characters than she is/was with proving a point. Both the stories and the philosophies in her books served to strengthen and explain her characters. With Tolkien and Lewis the characters and the story served to explain and strengthen their points.
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Old 07-30-2007, 03:47 PM   #216
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Originally posted by Varitek


I like to think that Harry took a few years off to play pro seeker either right before or right after he finished school (if he needed to finish school) and then went off to be an Auror when he was ready to go back into that line of work, after he'd had his much-needed escape.


I like this idea a lot. Yes, yes. He's much too proactive to just laze about, so maybe he would go pro for a few years before settling down to life as an Auror.

I think J.K. is right and there's no way she could possibly answer all our questions, so as readers and fans we have to use our own imagination to fill in some of the gaps.

I personally would like one more scene with Harry, Ron and Hermione after Harry repairs his wand; a scene for the 3 of them to reflect on the magnitude of all they'd been through and just kind of decompress. In my mind, this scene takes place in front of Fred's final resting place, on a nice summer day, as they bring him skiving snackboxes and fizzing whizzby's to lay at his grave, or maybe just lazing by the lake by Hogwarts.

My favorite sentence in the entire series is the very last, long, paragraph-like sentence in HBP where Harry reflects that his spirits lifted at the thought of spending one last, happy and hopeful day with Ron and Hermione. In my mind, I enviage a final scene encompassing that: just the 3 of them, getting along and being happy and content.
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Old 07-30-2007, 04:06 PM   #217
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I read the book this weekend. Don't have anything earthshattering to add, just that I really enjoyed it. I'm a casual fan; I've read all of the books but never bought any of them. I watch the movies when I get an opportunity. I was really satisfied with how JKR finished the series. And I even liked the epilogue, but then again I read romance novels frequently and cheesy epilogues with beatific children are practically de rigeur in that genre.

Stuff in book 7 that was memorable to me:
1. Dobby!!!! I didn't cry, but I did get a little choked up. I didn't see that coming. I really liked how Harry wanted to dig the grave himself with no magic and how that physical effort helped clear his mind of Voldy. The inscription on the gravestone was perfect.
2. I liked how Dumbledore becomes even more multi-faceted and less perfectly good, saintly cuddly father christmas-y.
3. Snape turning out to be on the right side... I KNEW this was going to be the case all along and it felt good to be vindicated.
4. The bit where Harry goes presumably to his death and his parents, Sirius, et al accompany him...loved the imagery and how with their presence he didn't need a patronus.
5. Ron and Hermione finally getting together after all this time.

Harry going to meet Voldemort and the whole bit about him knowing that he must die to save everyone and being willing to do so was quite Christ-like, if I may say so. I'm curious to know how all those fundamentalists who have raged against the HP phenomenon all these years are going to take it. In the end, I think these "evil" magic books have shown a lot more about what's really important in life and the true essence of Christianity (the greatest commandment is to love one another, right???) than most so-called "christian" novels I've read. So while that may not have been Ms. Rowling's intent, I take my hat off to her. Bravo.
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Old 07-30-2007, 06:19 PM   #218
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I'm gonna join in on this conversation now...I only read the first page though. I finished the book on Saturday and I got my mom into the books, so she's starting with the 6th. She's been reading a lot lately, i'm surprised!!

Lets see....

I totally predicted Harry marrying Ginny.
I only got choked up when Fred died...and Dobby too and when I saw Harry's kids' names.
I'm so happy Hermione and Ron finally got together.
I wanted to see more on the subject of Teddy...shouldn't Harry have realized he was in charge of the kid when he saw Lupin and Tonks both dead?
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Old 07-30-2007, 06:25 PM   #219
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This is going to be a long movie, because most of the movie would be terribly confusing without including everything.

Also, does anyone understand what that thing was at King's Cross that kept screaming in the corner? Could it have been the Horcrux inside of Harry?
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Old 07-30-2007, 06:26 PM   #220
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and I was thinking about why Voldemort had Nagini kill Snape...and I
guess it makes sense that he didnt avada-kedavara him with the Elder
Wand because if Voldemort thought Snape was still the master of the
elder wand, he might have expected that an Avada Kedavara wouldn't
work on Snape.

however, it's questionable whether or not voldemort knew about the
whole "wand-won't-hit-his-own-master" idea because Voldemort still
tried to kill Harry with the Elder Wand (though maybe at that point,
Voldemort didn't believe Harry was the master of the Elder Wand).
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Old 07-30-2007, 06:27 PM   #221
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Quote:
Originally posted by BonosLil'Pal94

I wanted to see more on the subject of Teddy...shouldn't Harry have realized he was in charge of the kid when he saw Lupin and Tonks both dead?

Well, Teddy's grandmother (Tonks' mother and Bellatrix and Narcissa's sister?/aunt?) was still alive. Like Neville, I'm sure Teddy was raised by his grandmother.

And the epilogue seems to show that Harry is very much involved in Teddy's life. (I don't know about you, but there's not many people that I visit for dinner at least 4 times a week. )
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Old 07-30-2007, 06:32 PM   #222
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^good point...didn't really think about the grandmother idea.

And ya...I guess Harry and Teddy must be prrrrretty darn close!
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Old 07-31-2007, 03:09 AM   #223
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WOW WOW WOW

and can I say it again....

WOW


Jo gave an online chat with Bloomsbury.com yesterday and let loose with an ABSOLUTE GOLD MINE of information.....if you thought the Today show was informative....geez Jo...at this rate you won't have anything left for the encyclopedia.....not that I'm complaining!!

Go to Mugglenet.com and you will find the link....let me see if I can post the direct link....what I really wish is for someone to print out the entire chat here, as it is VERY long and it would be great to have the sentences to reference in chat!

I have to say, she pretty much vindicate dmy feelings on Snape though...even going so far as to say Lily had feelings for him that might have turned romantic had not he acquired Death Eaters for friends..I KNEW that flower petal imagery wasn't just thrown in there! Also saying a person's Patronus takes the form of the love of one's life b/c of the person's happy thoughts in summoning it are about that beloved person..which is what I was saying all along....

Let me see if I can get the link....

Here it is, you can type it in if this doesn't work directly (I've had trouble posting direct links on here in the past, for some reason)..

http://www.mugglenet.com/app/news/full_story/1156

Highlights, she tells who is next Minister of Magic, discusses the new "Admistration" in detail, and how the careers of people fit in, other careers, characters' fates, who killed Tonks and Lupin, George, Snape, Dumbledore, spells, King's Cross (I'm surprised she opened up about that chapter!) Horcruxes, a lot of different things. My favorite comments are answer to what Muggle song would be played at Dumbledore's funeral, and "I think we are having a very Dementor-influenced summer here in the U.K!" (the weather.)


This is a MUST READ..do yourself a favor and read it! And Jo promises even more on her site in days to come. I think she's reluctant to say goodbye as are all of us. And BTW...Happy birthday Jo (42) and "Harry" ("27").

And now, have to get back to reading..*Crack* (Disapparates)
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Old 07-31-2007, 03:26 AM   #224
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Yep... my link works...so everyone do yourself a favor and get reading!

(And my question was answered, about Snape's shampoo problem! OK, I didn't get through, that wasn't me, but she asked my same question! Good answer, Jo, but that still doesn't answer any thoughts on why Lily could have POSSIBLY been eventually romatically attracted to him if he was so scruffy? I mean, come on, I understand the reasoning on his part (maybe) but dirty hair is dirty hair!...

BTW, Entertinment Weekly has devoted its new issue to an HP farewell. In the Summing up of the 7 Books section there is a hilarious "tribute" to Snape from a fan on the Editorial staff....this is a good read too. I have a subscription to EW.

*EDIT*....just re-reading the transcript again and some of the comments. This thought just occurred to me, b/c someone had a comment about what happened to Snape's body. Jo now tells us that not only did Harry name one of his kids after him, he makes sure that a portrait of Snape goes up in the Headmaster's office. Which makes me believe that, after the battle, he had time to reflect on the Persieve and that's where the process of forgiveness started. Having been the only party to the circumstances of Snape's death, he must have gone back to the Shrieking Shack and seen to the body. He must have seen to its burial. Maybe..and this is a big maybe, but seeing how this book was written and which scenes were dwelled on...MAYBE he even took the body to Godric's Hollow and buried it close to his parent's grave, so Snape could be close to Lily in death (as he did not see Snape in the Forest.) In an unmarked spot, of course....at least unmarked for a few decades. Of course this might be pure tosh (I really should slap myself a few times with a sock like a house-elf to punish myself for having these hiccups of sentimentality about this character!) but you never know. Maybe Snape's funeral is like Dobby's...a solitary Harry digging the grave by hand and, eventually, if he ever puts up a marker, slowly spelling out the inscription letter by letter. I know, sentimental tosh, but Harry seems to be capable of an incredible amount of forgiveness. I'm not sure I could be like this....

And BTW, folks, once I finish the book I'll focus on other topics than Snape for instance!! And now, I really HAVE to go....good night....

*CRACK*
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Old 07-31-2007, 04:59 AM   #225
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One final note....a sad one. It's probably in the Film area, but in case it isn't.

Ingmar Bergman is dead. I knew he was up there, and finding out his age (89), still it is a shock.

The world will never see another like him. We may have another batch of great filmakers in this generation, but as a collective whole, we move farther and farther away from the Golden Age of world cinema, when even here in America, it was still an Art form....

I hope he is finally at peace. *starts to hum the "Virgin Mary"song from "The Seventh Seal"....the one that is played on the lute during the picnic scene, the one with the bowl of strawberries.....if you remember that film you know what I mean.
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