Layton said:
I agree that the Foos are probably superior on a pure musical level, it's just that I think Nirvana far exceeds them on an artistic level. Nirvana paints a picture through the use of instrumentation, arrangements and textures ( yes vocals are a big part of this; lyrics are secondary to me, but don't hurt) of an emotional state characterized by raw testosterone fueled anger, serious self image issues and soft boy wounded feelings merging together. This theme alone was novel in rock, let alone actually capturing it. I challenge anybody to find a Foos theme that is any bit comparable to this. I don't mean to dog the Foos, but their music just doesn't have a great artistic vision to it IMO. On a side note, I agree with your takes on Sonic Youth, Soundgarden and Mudhoney. They are all near Nirvana's level. Pearl Jam and Alice in Chains? Sorry, can't go there with you----lol.
I see where you're coming from with the vocal textures - yes, this was an oversight on my part, because it does add to the sound of the music (and yet I referenced queen's six or seven part harmonies without cluing into the vocal part? lol) ... I agree with you also that the raw power of Cobain's anger and weakness being mixed together was powerful in the sense that it was undeniably genuine.
Whether the theme is novel, I'm not sure, but the treatment was irrefutably novel; I think anger with authority and anger with opposition and powerlessness are themes throughout most of rock, and likewise that emotional damage, weakness, powerlessness, being downtrodden, etc, that all these things are traditional themes of rock as well - and yes, it is uncommon that they are mixed, and more uncommon still are they mixed effectively. So you're right, there definitely is something to this - but whether through sheer exasperation with his own life, or whether through 'artistic vision' this was accomplished... well, it was still accomplished either way, so that's not really up for discussion. I don't know if I'd give him the benefit of the doubt and say that he was doing it because he saw the value that others would see in this. I suspect that because it was the only real outlet he had and he probably thought something like 'damned if someone take this away from me too, just like everything else'. In that sense it could just be that he was creating unintentional masterpeices just to stave off insanity or find balance/peace, not that it was through any channeled artistic vision.
Like I said (I hope I did, anyway) I don't mean to discredit him, because he has had a huge influence, and what he did was worth exploring, but I still don't really believe it's been worth the attention it was given... I think it was the mystique and heroization of his life that made everyone grasp at it all the more. By it, I don't so much mean his music, but the way he lived... strangely enough... although most people latch onto his music as a boon for that. People like heroes, and people want to be like heroes in a lot of ways... but from a literary standpoint, most heroes suffer some sort of tragic/crippling loss, or die in the face of their oppressor. People love this idea of 'fighting the man', because they hate some aspects of the systems they live in - yet at the same time, they also have comfort and security in the sameness of their systems, and to uproot the system completely would be to open the door for something worse to take its place. People don't like suffering tragic losses themselves, nor facing permanent impairment, nor being worse off than when they started in any sense... they love those who try, because they desire the same changes, but few are willing to make the sacrifices necessary, and when it comes down to it, their self-interest is more important to them in the end. It seems kindof like a matter of principle; people attach themselves to these figures, regardless what they're fighting, just because they have the courage to fight it instead of sit back complacently - but in the end, everyone is glad to have seen nothing more than the most minimal change take place; it reassures them that individuals can have a difference, and that there's hope for the future... but still they're happy even if things are effectively the same as they were before, as long as the effort was made and they didn't suffer. At its heart, people love selflessness in others even when they don't themselves act in that manner and maybe wish they would. But maybe not... I'm not sure what to think of the heroism phenomenon, nor how to explain it... But anyway... I'm not so sure it was his music, as JITB said, but rather his lifestyle... People just take his music to mean more than it might, as a symbol for his life now that he's gone... Definitely worth more thought and exploration.
This is a cool conversation.
Indeed it is