Dungog, New South Wales Superthread

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Why is it that on a board about an Irish band, I have never once seen anybody mention fellow countrymen Whipping Boy?

We Don't Need Nobody Else has got to be one of the more unsettling songs I've heard for a long time.

Probably because I don't want to be thrown out of a Borders? :wink:

Oh in that case, we'll get Charlotte to do it then. :wink:

Now, since I'm downloading something, ten bucks says this double posts.
 
1. How did the Jews in the middle East become liberated from the Romans? Did the Roman Empire just collapse and they went away, or did someone else liberate them earlier?

2. If Jesus' crucifixion/death/etc was something pre-ordained and it had to happen, and it's the whole point of Christianity, why hate the Jews for apparently being instrumental in bringing it about?
 
Oh, and I felt like writing a song.

I've been walking up the walls
I've been a stressed cat for weeks
In amidst the silent waves of sound
The afterlife agents will come 'round

My broken lamp and its killed light
Why am I still suffering in sight
Do I need my life support tonight?
Do I need my life support tonight?
Do I need it tonight?

While my head is in a daze
Working out the important mathematics
To live or not to die
Am I already a mutation on the outside
Am I already a figure of the living dead

My broken lamp and its killed light
Why am I still suffering in sight
Do I need my life support tonight?
Do I need my life support tonight?
Do I need it tonight?

Fifty-fifty are on the knives edge
Bet on one side to cut into the flesh
Will I have the straight jacket
Will I have it to tie me down tonight
Tonight ...

My broken lamp and its killed light
Why am I still suffering in sight
Do I need my life support tonight?
Do I need my life support tonight?
Do I need it tonight?

Hold me tight
Firmly in the hammock of my balance
Hold me tight
Don't let me drag myself
Into the forbidden zone
 
I hit you for the first time today
I didn't mean it; it just happened
You wouldn't let me go to the phone
And you wanted to make love and I did not
Now I know the distance between us
Christ, we weren't even fighting; I was just annoyed
Silence, and you started to cry
"That really hurt," you said
Yeah, and you thought you knew me

- We Don't Need Nobody Else

The delivery is part of what makes it. The fifth and ninth lines especially. Really unsettling.
 
Is it one of those songs where you can just read the lyrics and feel nothing but when you hear it as part of the song it means oh so much more?
 
1. How did the Jews in the middle East become liberated from the Romans? Did the Roman Empire just collapse and they went away, or did someone else liberate them earlier?

2. If Jesus' crucifixion/death/etc was something pre-ordained and it had to happen, and it's the whole point of Christianity, why hate the Jews for apparently being instrumental in bringing it about?

1. They didn't get liberated. The Western Roman Empire collapsed in the late 400s, but the Eastern Roman Empire, aka the Byzantine Empire, kept chugging for another millennium. However, it lost Palestine when the Muslim caliphate invaded in ... I think the late 600s.

2. Because it was a convenient pretext for Western European leaders to oust their Jewish populations? It's so easy to generate hate for the Other. (I can't believe I just used some Soc/PolSci wank, but it's really the best term in this situation.)
 
Hey Cin. :wave:

Is it one of those songs where you can just read the lyrics and feel nothing but when you hear it as part of the song it means oh so much more?

You all need to download the Heartworm album by Whipping Boy. One of the most emotionally charged albums I've heard.
 
1. They didn't get liberated. The Western Roman Empire collapsed in the late 400s, but the Eastern Roman Empire, aka the Byzantine Empire, kept chugging for another millennium. However, it lost Palestine when the Muslim caliphate invaded in ... I think the late 600s.

2. Because it was a convenient pretext for Western European leaders to oust their Jewish populations? It's so easy to generate hate for the Other. (I can't believe I just used some Soc/PolSci wank, but it's really the best term in this situation.)

Fair enough... thanks for the info.
 
1. They didn't get liberated. The Western Roman Empire collapsed in the late 400s, but the Eastern Roman Empire, aka the Byzantine Empire, kept chugging for another millennium. However, it lost Palestine when the Muslim caliphate invaded in ... I think the late 600s.

2. Because it was a convenient pretext for Western European leaders to oust their Jewish populations? It's so easy to generate hate for the Other. (I can't believe I just used some Soc/PolSci wank, but it's really the best term in this situation.)

Beat me to it. I'd go so far as to say that part of the answer to question 2 is that they were a convenient target for rulers to focus on in order to bring about unity (through common hatred) when there weren't other wars on, or something.
 
Beat me to it. I'd go so far as to say that part of the answer to question 2 is that they were a convenient target for rulers to focus on in order to bring about unity (through common hatred) when there weren't other wars on, or something.

Yep, precisely it. The stereotypical role of Jews in the economy made them particularly vulnerable to any attempt to focus hatred on a single group, since no ruler likes anybody encroaching on what they see as "their" economy.
 
Were Jews subjected to much prejudice before Jesus' time?

Depends whose account you believe. If you take the Old Testament literally, the Israelites were persecuted in Egypt. Archaeological evidence does not support this account, and there probably was no substantial Israelite presence in Egypt.

Then there was the whole affair with the Assyrians, which is substantiated by archaeological evidence.

The Romans were pretty content to let the Jews do their thing largely unhassled as long as they paid their taxes and didn't cause any political unrest. Of course, when they didn't keep in line ... can you say "razing the Temple in Jerusalem, 70 AD"?
 
Depends whose account you believe. If you take the Old Testament literally, the Israelites were persecuted in Egypt. Archaeological evidence does not support this account, and there probably was no substantial Israelite presence in Egypt.

Then there was the whole affair with the Assyrians, which is substantiated by archaeological evidence.

The Romans were pretty content to let the Jews do their thing largely unhassled as long as they paid their taxes and didn't cause any political unrest. Of course, when they didn't keep in line ... can you say "razing the Temple in Jerusalem, 70 AD"?

Yeah, this doco mentioned that as the result of some sort of rebellion. Apparently this had something to do with the process of Jesus' followers splitting from Judaism and establishing Christianity as a separate thing.

I don't know what the whole affair with the Assyrians was...?
 
I don't know what the whole affair with the Assyrians was...?

My apologies, I meant the Babylonians. They deported the Jews from Palestine to Babylon. They were exiled for much of the 500s BC.
 
Depends whose account you believe. If you take the Old Testament literally, the Israelites were persecuted in Egypt. Archaeological evidence does not support this account, and there probably was no substantial Israelite presence in Egypt.

Then there was the whole affair with the Assyrians, which is substantiated by archaeological evidence.

The Romans were pretty content to let the Jews do their thing largely unhassled as long as they paid their taxes and didn't cause any political unrest. Of course, when they didn't keep in line ... can you say "razing the Temple in Jerusalem, 70 AD"?

Let's not forget that the "Israelites" probably didn't actually exist for a substantial period of time - from what I can vaguely recall, until the monarchy or thereabouts? Certainly before the Assyrian and Babylonian invasions. And yeah, the Jews actually had it pretty good round Jesus' time, they were effectively running their own place, just under Roman authority.
 
Yeah, this doco mentioned that as the result of some sort of rebellion. Apparently this had something to do with the process of Jesus' followers splitting from Judaism and establishing Christianity as a separate thing.

I don't know what the whole affair with the Assyrians was...?

Pretty much the Jews decided they weren't happy with Roman rule, so the Romans razed the temple and more or less changed (destroyed) every single temple-based ritualistic aspect of Judaism, starting it on the road to what it is today.
 
Let's not forget that the "Israelites" probably didn't actually exist for a substantial period of time - from what I can vaguely recall, until the monarchy or thereabouts? Certainly before the Assyrian and Babylonian invasions. And yeah, the Jews actually had it pretty good round Jesus' time, they were effectively running their own place, just under Roman authority.

If I'm not grossly mistaken, the archaeological evidence increasingly indicates that the Israelites were just another tribe of Canaanites who developed a separate identity, and that contrary to the Biblical account, the Kingdom of Judah was in fact the lesser kingdom.

Have you read The Bible Unearthed by Finkelstein and Silberman? I'm thinking about finding a copy.
 
My apologies, I meant the Babylonians. They deported the Jews from Palestine to Babylon. They were exiled for much of the 500s BC.

They got pretty upset about that one, and came back all xenophobic and hating on everyone else. I mean, have you read some of the bits in Nehemiah?

"Moreover, in those days I saw men of Judah who had married women from Ashdod, Ammon and Moab. Half of their children spoke the language of Ashdod or the language of one of the other peoples, and did not know how to speak the language of Judah. I rebuked them and called curses down on them. I beat some of the men and pulled out their hair. I made them take an oath in God's name and said: "You are not to give your daughters in marriage to their sons, nor are you to take their daughters in marriage for your sons or for yourselves."
 
If I'm not grossly mistaken, the archaeological evidence increasingly indicates that the Israelites were just another tribe of Canaanites who developed a separate identity, and that contrary to the Biblical account, the Kingdom of Judah was in fact the lesser kingdom.

Have you read The Bible Unearthed by Finkelstein and Silberman? I'm thinking about finding a copy.

Correct. I've actually got a copy (which I've yet to finish - I might do that tonight actually) which you can probably borrow, as I highly highly doubt anyone in my church'll be able to grasp a hold of it.
 
They got pretty upset about that one, and came back all xenophobic and hating on everyone else. I mean, have you read some of the bits in Nehemiah?

"Moreover, in those days I saw men of Judah who had married women from Ashdod, Ammon and Moab. Half of their children spoke the language of Ashdod or the language of one of the other peoples, and did not know how to speak the language of Judah. I rebuked them and called curses down on them. I beat some of the men and pulled out their hair. I made them take an oath in God's name and said: "You are not to give your daughters in marriage to their sons, nor are you to take their daughters in marriage for your sons or for yourselves."

Fast forward a couple of millennia and a few centuries, and I'm pretty sure Aussie Nehemiah just posted this on his right wing nutjob forum:

"Moreover, in those days I saw men of Australia who had married women from India, Lebanon and Indonesia. Half of their children spoke the language of India or the language of one of the other peoples, and did not know how to speak the language of Australia. I rebuked them and called curses down on them. I beat some of the men and pulled out their hair. I made them take an oath in Barnesy's name and said: "You are not to give your daughters in marriage to their sons, nor are you to take their daughters in marriage for your sons or for yourselves."

Correct. I've actually got a copy (which I've yet to finish - I might do that tonight actually) which you can probably borrow, as I highly highly doubt anyone in my church'll be able to grasp a hold of it.

Oh awesome, I'd be most interested in having a read.
 
During this lull in the superthread I reckon I'm gonna go to sleep. Don't like staying up for that long.
 
I was intending to go to sleep an hour ago. Woops. Well I'll bail now too. :wave:
 
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