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Old 05-04-2004, 04:14 PM   #61
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Ditto, HG. Send him back to the Stars where he belongs, with the rest of the sloppy goons.
Amen, sister. Amen.
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Old 05-04-2004, 06:14 PM   #62
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Boy I sure called that one didn't I?

Now the Flames are in the Cup Final.

GO LEAFS GO!!!
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Old 05-04-2004, 09:41 PM   #63
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dave c - you keep getting things wrong in this post. they're in the western conference finals.

everyone, it was a nice post, but it's gonna have to end. sad to say, eh?

i wonder what my company's gonna do with all of our molson 28packs featuring the red wings on them.

and yes, go leafs go. and go sharks too. san jose v toronto in 2004!

although a calgary v toronto stanley cup would be awesome for canada, i think it'd really trash the league. so would a san jose v tampa bay final. the league's in dire straits and it needs anyone to watch games.

as for the future red wings... what are your predictions everyone? seems most people would like hatcher to vamoose...
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Old 05-05-2004, 12:25 AM   #64
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Originally posted by DaveC
Boy I sure called that one didn't I?

Now the Flames are in the Cup Final.

GO LEAFS GO!!!
Your clairvoyant "bet on it" has been golden thus far. I'm almost convinced you know what you're talking about. Wait, didn't you say Detroit was going to win the series? And didn't all your picks lose?

You're right! I'm demeaning your day of glory. How rude of me.



I would like to think Calgary will take it... but I think it'll be Philly over San Jose. My original pick was Detroit over Philly. Sadly that will not occur.

Bring back Bowman...
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Old 05-05-2004, 09:00 AM   #65
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Now the Flames are in the Cup Final.


I believe they have to go through San Jose first.
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Old 05-05-2004, 02:55 PM   #66
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i wonder what my company's gonna do with all of our molson 28packs featuring the red wings on them.


I could help them find a home!
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Old 05-05-2004, 05:37 PM   #67
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Now that the emotions have subsided, I am ready to post.

Dear Red Wings Fans,
I sincerely apologize for the devastation I have caused to our beloved winged wheelers. As you may have already seen, it was I who first posted my disdain over not being able to meet the Avs once again in the Conference Finals, far before the series with Calgary was finished. Thus, it was my posting that jinxed the boys of Hockeytown and forced us into another summer of disapointment.
Stevie may not come back. Dave Lewis will never be Scotty. Cujo is not a Cup-worthy goalie. The roster looks like roll call at the Nursing Home. And we will not have a championship. All because I posted too soon.
Your insults and your anger are understandable and acceptable. I should have known better, and much like Osgood leaving the next against San Jose in '94, one small mistake has cost us immeasurable pain. Let us all learn from me, and never ever post a victory that is not assured. Friends don't let friends jinx the best team in hockey.
Have a good summer. Stay strong when the team is dis-assembled. Keep wearing red even when it looks stupid. And always remember: at least we aren't the Avalanche.
--Stammer476
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Old 05-05-2004, 05:57 PM   #68
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The only disappointment you've caused is the misinformation of all the fans here. Pointing blame at old sources... only revealing how much you rely on highlight packages for judgement.

It's the same old story, as it has been every year. I've watched them all go by with the same trend being exposed. Bottom line, Detroit doesn't score goals in the playoffs... at least for the past two years. Every "cup-worthy" goaltender deserves some goal-support.

But right you are... keep trying to address solutions where there are no questions.

A policy such as that will put Detroit in the ranks of the well respected, and well managed, New York Rangers.



~hoping you get help.
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Old 05-05-2004, 08:25 PM   #69
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PW, I don't know who pissed in your coffee this morning, but that letter was meant as an attempt at humor, not as an opening for insults. I was merely trying to make humor of a depressing situation, your post was unwarrented and offensive.

Quote:
only revealing how much you rely on highlight packages for judgement.
And I suggest you know more about who you're talking to before you make statements like that.
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Old 05-06-2004, 03:05 PM   #70
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Your post was unwarrented and offensive.
To an extent it was, yes. Overt reactionary is sometimes the tone I take to test the waters. Especially when the information one presents is very general and uninsightful. No offense to you personally, but in the delivery of your post your assumptions (some humorous as you say) speak some truth about how you've evaluated the Wings' season, and to a more shocking degree... how Wings' fans in general perceive the "problems" of their team. I applaud your attempt at humor, I'm the last person who would suppress that... but needless to say after hearing the same banter about Detroit for the last little while, it's difficult to stay patient with it... regardless if it's a menial attempt at satire.

Quote:
And I suggest you know more about who you're talking to before you make statements like that.
That is exactly the point I was making by saying something so inflammatory. When you make statements such as the ones you did in your previous post, it only allows for my inappropriate assumption(s). Next time, I suggest you read the last line you gave me here... before making light of a situation that no longer carries any substance. In the future if you want to avoid misinterpretation, I suggest you know more about the content of your post before attempting to jest its subject.



There was pretention in my post, but don't mistake that for analytical impotency. The way to elicit the most honest response from others is to marginalize them... I guess you decided to interpret my words as an insult. Disappointing indeed... as I had hoped you would take it as an opportunity.
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Old 05-06-2004, 04:16 PM   #71
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PW, thanks for the reply. Let me first say that I've *mostly* enjoyed your witty & intelligent comments in this forum. They often contain a particular humor that I am also bent toward, and its fun to see other people think in ways that I can appreciate.

Second, let me explain the reasoning behind my reaction. My first impression of your earlier post was that it was another infuriating response by a certain type of sports fan who thinks that the best way to feel superior is to make others feel stupid. These fans ARE generally intelligent, but they use their knowledge of the subject to dismiss and destroy the opinions of any other fan who might say something under their "standard of insight." To them, fandom is knowledge, and if you don't have a knowledge of a certain sport/team/player/defensive strategy/etc. that is equal to their own, than you aren't worthy to be fan. Or even more insulting, that you're a bandwagon fan (that's the way I understood the "highlight package" comment). Your response to my post and to some other previous posts in this thread led me to believe that this was the case with you.

It is these types of fans that have angered me for years. They simply can't sit on a couch/stool/bleacher with a group of other loyalists and enjoy athletic competition. They must parade their apparent insight over the heads of everyone else until they feel that they are the most intelligent among the crowd, or at least have aligned themselves with the exclusive club of other intellectuals. It is for this reason that I have, unfortunately, limited myself to as little conversation as possible when viewing most sporting events, simply because I don't really want to get into an argument over +- ratings or forechecking ability, I just want to watch the freakin' hockey game.

So my frustrated response was undoubtedly at the fault of many others past experiences more than it was aimed at yourself. For that I apologize.

Still, I'm sure that both of our responses were misunderstood. The absence of voice inflection and body language makes for many such instances in the computer world of communication. My original post was meant to be absurd, not a statement of insight into the true ills of my beloved Wings. It was written from the perspective of the overly-pessimistic fan who thinks that small choices in our own lives have doomed their heroes fate for years to come. If that wasn't understood, I guess I should have been more clear.

PW, I appreciate your response. I hope that we've been able to clear this up and understand where we're both coming from.
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Old 05-06-2004, 05:38 PM   #72
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That's more than I had hoped for.



Indeed there was a misunderstanding, which like you say is the unfortunate result of a mediated forum such as this. Although the humor I tried to project was misguided, the candor you replied with should garner respect. Most others would have interpretted my ramblings as off-the-handle or ill-reasoned rationale.

Honestly through this I was hoping to gain a new Michael Griffiths... there's very few around who will argue/debate with such vigor, yet still maintain a rapport with those in the discussion.

Good show stammer, hopefully in the future we'll hear more of your proactive and satirical stance... even though I couldn't agree more with just bloody watching the game.

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Old 05-06-2004, 06:01 PM   #73
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Honestly through this I was hoping to gain a new Michael Griffiths
I'm unaware of the reference, though I'm always up for good debate. Since I'm in the mood, let's see what I can muster about the comments I DID make in the original post. I don't necessarily believe any of these, but in any debate, you have to argue what's in front of you.

1.) "Stevie may not come back." I wouldn't be surprised about this either way. He's been on the downslide of his career for years now, and if his injury is something that affects his eyesight or worse, it's time to bid farewell to the captain. He's been the heart, soul, and face to this franchise since the Dead Wings of the 80's, and its hard to imagine how the team would be without him.

2.) "Dave Lewis will never be Scotty." I find few who would disagree with this statement. He was a great assistant to The Man, but he'll never be able to fill his shoes. I still remember getting the Detroit Free Press the day we signed Scotty, and seeing the bold headline, "Beam us a Cup, Scotty." It seemed that from the moment he stood behind the bench, the whole city knew the wait for victory would soon be over. Dave Lewis has done some good things this season, including the 3-4 man line changes in the playoffs that seemed to throw the opponents into confusion. He may be able to do well in his role, but he'll never reach the heights of his predecessor. IMO, for the last two seasons under Lewis, the Wings of the playoffs have not appeared in the same likeness of the Wings of the regular season. In situations like that, the #1 finger has to be pointed at the coach.

3.) "Cujo is not a Cup-worthy goalie." For goodness sake, he's not far removed from the minors, people! He played respectably in the two rounds, but what we need to win is not respect, but excellence. The last two years we've had the door shut by a goalie at the top of his game. If we expect to take the Cup, why can't we expect the same? He was shifted in and out all season for a reason. And much like Colorado has learned, you can't walk into the playoffs crossing your fingers that your goaltender plays well. He needs to prove himself all season long, so that your team has confidence that it can rely on his minding to win a few games that they shouldn't. And I'm pretty sure that doesn't describe Cujo.

4.) "The roster looks like roll call at the Nursing Home." OK, OK. This is to be taken with a grain of salt. Sure, the 'Big Names' are old, but there's still some young blood that can get the job done. But believe me, we're never going to see their faces plastered across ESPN the Magazine under the title "Best Team Ever." We may have more All-Stars than anyone else could dream of, but All-Stars in wheelchairs doesn't make for a quality team. Personally, if they dump the aging wonders over the break, we may be a better team for it. Hull needs to stop whining over playing time. Hatcher, well, he's Hatcher. The list goes on but I'm running out of time. Illitch needs to lose the mentality of paying big bucks for players in the lesser-half of their careers. We're building a hockey team, not a movie cast. Big names don't win games if they can't play with heart, determination, and the legs they used to. Hopefully the Ducks and the Flames have taught us that.

There, PW, is something to chew on. Have fun.
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Old 05-07-2004, 04:04 PM   #74
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1."Stevie May Not Come Back". That is probably the most valid point of the 4, as Steve was already playing with a couple decades worth of wear and tear... as well as his wooden-implant knees. Hopefully he can hobble his way to behind the bench and replace the incompetent Joey Kocur, or any of the apparently inept assistant coaches. Promotion from within would possibly allow for the continuation of the morale support Steve provides... and possibly some offensive accountability on the powerplay and such.

2. I really can't argue with that either. Although I think it has more to do with his supporting staff than his own coaching methods. It is his duty to surround himself with the right people... and to an extent that is a responsibility of Ken Holland. The reality is, the Wings dominated 5-on-5 in the regular season and in the playoffs. Special teams, most often the obligation of subservient coaches, were the ultimate dagger in the Wings season. If that's the case, then maybe a good house cleaning is in order. Whether Lewis stays intact through the motion is moot as far as I'm concerned.

3. This is by far the weirdest issue to talk about... trying to remove myself from my own subjectivity and bias, as well as from the media's is difficult to do. Having said that, I'll just say what I think. The Red Wings made a mistake in contract negotiations with Hasek... supplemental clauses should be made void and expire when a player "retires" (although I guess that's a CBA issue, one of the many that will not be addressed). Throughout the season, there were various times when the coaches or management could have declared Joseph the number one goalie, but injury and a lack of consistent play (a fault on both his behalf and the Lewis' insistency that all goalies play) didn't allow for this to happen. Nearing the end of the season, Joseph did establish himself as number one, but through injury and the immediacy of the playoffs the Wings were forced to go with Manny... a decision that was ultimately based on Joseph's unhealthy ankle. Once he won the Nashville series, through little if any work, the team finally announced that cujo would be the man to take them to the Cup (a little late for show of confidence wouldn't you say?).

In the following series against the Flames, Joseph did not look comfortable at all in the first 3 games. His play reflected hesitancy and a definite lack of confidence in challenging shooters. However, the "ineptitude" he showed in net only exposed the poor coverage down low and lack of engagement of the Detroit defense with Calgary's forecheckers. Every goal was a broken play from behind the net, or a Flames player left alone with ample opportunity to score. In contrast to last year, Joseph actually started to gain momentum in the series... and in the last few games outplayed Kiprusoff. I know, how could I say this when the media tells me I'm wrong? Simple... it's the same reason why Anaheim, Minnesota, and Calgary rose to "Cinderella" status... their hot goaltenders were beneficiaries of an impermeable and committed defense. Although Kiprusoff displayed some fine acrobatics, all the shots he faced were perimeter, visible, and shots that any goaltender worth his salt should stop (something I mentioned quite a few times in this thread). Even Giguere, the "savior" of last year's playoffs was mediocre in year's prior... and this past hangover year... his commitment to positioning and a machine-like goalie ethic were exposed as inferior when his defense didn't play to a suffocating extent. Although it appears as if a "hot goalie" steals the Wings season every year... and in turn outplaying Joseph... it's really the collaborative effort of a bunch of no-name blueliners. It's just more attractive to make the story about the goalies... one who has never won a cup and is destined to fail every year... vs. the next rookie face who has a great defensive system in front of him (not a surprise that when you look at the teams remaining in the Western Conference... both are products of that defensive ethic... Sutter's history in San Jose, and Wilson's background in Washington are a testament to that).

The unfortunate aspect for Joseph is that when he plays well and to his potential, he is an "excellent" goaltender. However, in some odd way his play draws from the rest of the team... and they just can't score in front of him. Had one bounce gone Detroit's way in the final two games against Calgary, it would have been Joseph's moniker as series-stealer instead of Kiprusoff's. Lest we forget Joseph came into the playoffs injured and only played eight games. Considering that, and the fact he was top 3 in SV% and GAA... it's hard to call him "not cup-worthy". The same situation was a reality in Toronto... one of the reasons he left. After Belfour (a cup winning 'tender mind you) was hung out to dry this year, I'm sure he's considering a similar path.

In my opinion it's too convenient to label Joseph as the goat; if you replace him with any goalie this year I wouldn't expect them to advance past the Flames either. It's a virtue to be stingy, but I think the Wings need to be told that only applies to goaltending and not offense.



Sorry for the rant, it's just that many don't seem to understand this stuff beyond a superficial layer. And I'm talking Wing's fans in general.

4. The only thing with age is the depreciation of speed and physical play (the ONLY thing! ). Make no mistake, players like Hull, Yzerman, Shanahan, and anyone on the team over 35 still have the ability to score. But it's not in the high price areas. Only Holmstrom, Maltby, and at times Draper showed the gumption to get in front of the net for a few garbage goals. The future of the team lies definitely with Zetterberg, Datsyuk, and Williams to an extent... but I think the old veterans still have a few pints left in the tank. Detroit is in the position where they don't need to rebuild. Holland and his scouting staff have consistently provided with good draft choices... a standard that is on par even with New Jersey's eye for the diamond in the rough. They may have traded away a few decent ones in recent years, but not to the detriment of the team. If the Wings can somehow last through next season with contracts intact (assuming there is a season), I think they'll fair ok. The question is, how many will the team lose through retirement... and how much will management buy into the rhetoric that their cup-hungry fans and rabid media dish out to them on an hourly basis? Don't mess with this assemblage of players... it snould be more of a coaching discourse than a personnel whitewashing.

It's nice that the fans have the passion and the team has the resources to finance it. But all too often teams have been deconstructed prematurely at the motivation of irrational and unfounded sources. My advice to the Wings (I know, it holds much bearing)... don't get impatient. Figure out the situation with player status and CBA discussions before finding new ways to sink like the Rangers, Capitals, and Blues.



I'm sorry I chewed so long.
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Old 05-08-2004, 12:09 AM   #75
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Your clairvoyant "bet on it" has been golden thus far. I'm almost convinced you know what you're talking about. Wait, didn't you say Detroit was going to win the series? And didn't all your picks lose?

You're right! I'm demeaning your day of glory. How rude of me.



I would like to think Calgary will take it... but I think it'll be Philly over San Jose. My original pick was Detroit over Philly. Sadly that will not occur.

Bring back Bowman...

ooooh. a zinger.

If only your brain was as quick as your tongue....what a world it would be.
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