Dating Rant

[BAW]

I was going to type a big response to this but relationships are just so frustrating, I quit trying for a reason, screw happiness, I cant deal with all the bullshit.

Honestly, women, you arent perfect either, before you go on bitching about how guys are complete assholes, figure out what precisely it is that you want, and dont try to manipulate us, cuz some people dont take it very well and will reciprocate by treating you in a similarly shitty fashion. Now Im not accusing anyone here of being like that, Im just saying, youre not so perfect yourselves, so before you group every single guy into one generic category of 'assholes' just think that maybe we're not 100% of your problem and there might be personal issues you have to deal with. Nobody is perfect, you cant expect the stars of us because you WILL be dissapppointed. Not all guys are assholes, and you all know it, but its very difficult to be in a position as a guy wherein you see the same thing from everyone you know --> Girl meets guy, girl doesnt take time to understand guy, girl misinterprets guy, girl breaks up with 'asshole', girl comes back whining about how there are no good guys out there, as a good guy you are forced to listen and help, they say thanks for being a friend, they go off and find someone else, process repeats, and all the while you sit there and help --> now then, I scorn any and all of you women out there who say guys are assholes but have at least 1 really close guy friend. Dont be so blind. Honestly, how do you think he feels? Hes not just there because he likes listening to you bitch about every little fucking thing under the sun. Trust me.

Wow...pretty harsh. You have an awful lot of bitterness towards women at the age of 17. What the hell has happened to you to make you feel this way?

What was it about peaseblossom's post that set you off this way? She was just wondering out loud why someone led her on...I don't think she was putting down the entire male population.

Yes, there are women out there who expect too much and don't know what they really want but there are a hell of a lot of men who are great at the mind-fuck game and don't care what damage they cause.

Luckily for most us, there are also some really great, honest, sincere people out there and some of us have been lucky enough to have found one but you can't be bitter because you haven't found what you're looking for (sorry about the play on words) just yet.

Peaseblossom...I doubt you did anything wrong...consider yourself lucky that you didn't get any more involved.

 

[joyfulgirl]

Pease...I wish I had something really helpful to offer, but having been in too many similar situations as the one you desribe, the best I can offer is that there's just no figuring out that behavior. You can analyze it until the cows come home and you'll never really figure it out. At least I haven't. People have intimacy issues, they get scared, they run off. They think they know what they want, but they change their minds, they run off in the most cravenly ways. I've seen as many women do this as men.

What I always try to ask myself is this: what was my role in it? No matter how obvious it seems to my mind that 'this guy did this thing to me,' if I reach down into a new level of personal honesty, I can usually see my part in it. Usually it's something subconscious rather than any overt behavior... it's usually very old stuff, old fears, old wounds, those things that mysteriously act as magnets to bring around these annoying 'lessons' to help me grow and all that bullshit, which isn't really bullshit at all of course but sometimes it seems like it is.

Anyway, try not to spend too much time focusing on him--in the end, it's always about you, as hard as that is to confront sometimes. Sorry if I'm psychobabbling, but like I said, I've had this happen to me so many times that I finally realized it can't be just them, it has to be me--and I don't mean that in a self-deprecating way, but more like "I must be subconsciously putting out a particular cause that I am unaware of that is creating this effect." Sorry if that's too metaphysical or new agey or whatever, but I think it's really true.

 

[MissVelvetDress_75]

Look for a nice guy who is also nice looking, not just nice looking.

I do damnit! and you know what? They are all married or in a serious relationship...i can't win..

 

[Angel]

~unforgettableFOXfire~, you are 18. You are too young to be so bitter.
I know you apologised for your attack, but you really missed the mark. Peaseblossom just wanted to get feedback on this guy's behaviour and I am sorry, but the behaviour she described is something I have experienced time and again. So yes, you may very well be a super nice guy, but there are tons out there that go about things in a very strange and rude way. NO girls of course are not perfect either, that I agree with.

I suppose my problem is, the more I experience guys like the one mentioned in Pease's initial post, the more I find it hard to believe that guys can actually love women, and that's sad. I do have a close guy friend and I'll tell you, while he's a nice guy and all, he's still a pig. Always ready to throw the rude and lude comments. Just seems the more I get to know the male gender the more I am convinced they are just out there to bang the opposite sex. You can be enraged by that comment, but from my own personal experiences and observations this is what I can conclude. I hope to be proved wrong one of these days.

 

[zonelistener]

my two pence

Joyful -

Most often, I think it has NOTHING to do with you - and it is truly them. They have the issue, not you. And if they have this issue, there is a good chance you do not want to be with them. I have learned that.

I internalize EVERYTHING. I feel everything that is bad is somehow caused by me - and it is rarely the case. You can't control everything, I am learning. It's frustrating, and painful - but life happens. And most of the time in relationships, you can't put the blame for the end of an relationship or acquantance (Sp?) on yourself.

 

[DiGi]

I suppose my problem is, the more I experience guys like the one mentioned in Pease's initial post, the more I find it hard to believe that guys can actually love women, and that's sad. I do have a close guy friend and I'll tell you, while he's a nice guy and all, he's still a pig. Always ready to throw the rude and lude comments. Just seems the more I get to know the male gender the more I am convinced they are just out there to bang the opposite sex.

I think you are off a bit on this one Angel. I do not think I need to go into further detail here. But there are guys who are the complete opposite of what you described and do not lower themselves to this type of behavior and way thinking.

 

[joyfulgirl]

Re: my two pence

Joyful -

Most often, I think it has NOTHING to do with you - and it is truly them. They have the issue, not you. And if they have this issue, there is a good chance you do not want to be with them. I have learned that.

I internalize EVERYTHING. I feel everything that is bad is somehow caused by me - and it is rarely the case. You can't control everything, I am learning. It's frustrating, and painful - but life happens. And most of the time in relationships, you can't put the blame for the end of an relationship or acquantance (Sp?) on yourself.

Again, I'm talking about subconscious stuff. Maybe one says "I want a relationship! I want a relationship!" but then why does every relationship turn sour? On some deep level that is sometimes difficult to access, I think one really either does not want one, does not trust relationships, feels they are unworthy, has intimacy issues, daddy was mean to me, blah blah blah, so they draw people to them who mirror that back to them in order to bring this subconscious thing to the surface to be addressed. I didn't make this up...it's in all the psych textbooks.

[edit] also, it's important to mention that I'm talking about patterns here--I agree with you that "it's them" in the case of the random date gone sour, but when there are patterns or like when the beautiful, nice woman or man 'just never meets anyone' and 'there just isn't anyone to date'--you gotta look deeper. If it's a pattern, it's probably you. And believe me, I'm talking about myself here.

I guess there is a balance here between being too quick to blame the other person, and being too quick to blame yourself.

 

[Diemen]

Well...where should I start...Pease, you know my stance on this, but I guess I'll reply to as much as I can anyway.

First off, I definitely seem to fall into this "too nice" category, which quite honestly pisses me off. Since when is being too nice a bad trait to have?? Oh that's right, it's only a bad trait if you want to date the guy. Can't have someone actually treat you with too much respect or thoughtfulness, noooo, that's just not exciting enough. It's a great trait for friendship, however. And I know, maybe you think that someone who is "too nice" to you is just a yes man and doesn't see you for who you really are, but I think more often than not they DO see you for who you really are and treat you accordingly.

Another thing, would someone tell me why it seems that once you get labeled as "too nice," whatever you say about the girl just seems to be taken for granted because you're "too nice" or just a friend? Why is it so hard to believe that you are worth more than what your luck in dating has shown you so far? I don't say things just for the sake of flattery, and yet it seems my word carries little weight in a lot of cases. Wouldn't you think your friend's words would mean more since he knows you better than these other people? It honestly baffles me that once you get to be really close friends with someone, whenever you say something nice about them or cheer them up by pointing out their good traits, it carries little if any weight.

[theory]Maybe one of the reasons that a lot of these dating guys seem to fall through is that they aren't too nice. They've got that little bit of bad boy in them that most women seem to fall for, the kind of guy who's nice but has some mystery about him women want to figure out, or at least try to. But unfortunately that bad boy is also the part of them that doesn't call back when they say they will, or makes the big romantic gesture and then doesn't care to follow through. Too nice isn't such a bad thing if they at least stick around and follow through on their starts, don't you think?[/theory]

Anyway, you know I'm always there for you if you need a shoulder to lean on, but it's very frustrating to see you beat yourself up because this guy didn't call back or that guy didn't follow through. It's frustrating because I know that you've got so much to offer but are selling yourself short because of these little failures in dating. ***Caution, too nice talk coming...just toss it aside...***You're an incredible person, Pease - you're kind, honest, caring, adventurous, sexy, sweet, talented...and if that's not enough for these guys, then fuck em. That's not me being sweet, or just trying to make you feel better, that's the truth. I know it probably doesn't mean much to you anymore, but there it is anyway. Don't let these fools who let you go without a second thought determine what you are and what you're worth. You're worth far beyond what they can give.

Oh...and Pease, you only fell in love once, eh? Interesting....

 

[zonelistener]

I even use the nice guiy smilie

I do damnit! and you know what? They are all married or in a serious relationship...i can't win..

Yeah, I have that same problem! But obviously, your statement could not possibly be true, because Digi, Basstrap and I are all single nice guys - and are not involved in relationships.

P.S. - Digi, thanks for taking on Angel's issue, I was about to hit that one too. To ad though - I often wonder how some of my guy friends are total pigs and married, and there is me on the sideline going like this at them - and I am single and have a tough time finding a decent woman to date. I need to stop looking.

 

[zonelistener]

Re: Re: my two pence

Again, I'm talking about subconscious stuff. Maybe one says "I want a relationship! I want a relationship!" but then why does every relationship turn sour? On some deep level that is sometimes difficult to access, I think one really either does not want one, does not trust relationships, feels they are unworthy, have intimacy issues, daddy was mean to me, blah blah blah, so they draw people to them who mirror that back to them in order to bring this subconscious thing to the surface to be addressed. I didn't make this up...it's in all the psych textbooks.

[edit] also, it's important to mention that I'm talking about patterns here--I agree with you that 'it's them" in the case of the random date gone sour, but when there are patterns or the beautiful, nice woman or man who 'just never meets anyone'--you gotta look deeper. If it's a pattern, it's probably you.

Much agreed - I understand better now!

Often, good communications is key to a succesful relationship/friendship!

 

[She Is Raging]

Ramble on...

Just in response to Peases orginal post....

In my experience of dating - I have been in this situation many many times before. Eventually... I just got to the point where I stopped waiting around and did what I needed to do. Generally... if a guy didnt call me by when he said he would - I would put it out of my mind and tell myself that it wasnt worth it. Or- I would call him and just ask him what the deal was and ask him to be honest with me - if he didnt want to date me again, tell me now and let me just go on with things. It could be very stressful and sometimes a little hurtful going through with this, but in the long run I was very glad I'd done this. Because when youthink about it... why do you want to waster your time thinking about/pining for someone who doesnt want to be with you? It's better to find out than to sit around wondering.

And in defense of all the girls saying that there are too many guys out there that are "too nice" etc... too willing, too accomodating, too doting, etc... while these things are very nice ina relationship, sometimes you want to know what he wants to do- what he likes, etc... it's not just about what you want to do etc... I hope that makes sense.

All I can say is it took me a loooooooooooong time to find someone that I really truly love and care about. I hope and pray everyday that I dont have to go back to the singles pool again. It took me literally several months to realize that my current boyfriend is a genuine "nice guy" and not out to screw me over like the last several guys I dated. I went through the whole dating thing for the longest time and I was convinced that there was no relief in site - and then when I least expected it - there he was. Just be open to things that you werent always before. Go out with someone who may not be "your type" etc... you may surprise yourself. Just hang in there and most importantly of all do NOT settle.

 

[joyfulgirl]

About this nice guy thing...

I always fall for the guys I'm convinced are the nice guy type and NOT the bad boys of my youth. Then the behavior turns out to be the same as the bad boys. The wolf in sheep's clothing syndrome. Which leads me back to my patterns theory...

 

[zonelistener]

I developed a new "key to relationships" in my last one.

Everyone has issues - I think you just need to find someone whose issues work well with your issues. For three months, I found that person - then, somehow, she created new issues. Ack.

 

[DiGi]

I developed a new "key to relationships" in my last one.

Everyone has issues - I think you just need to find someone whose issues work well with your issues. For three months, I found that person - then, somehow, she created new issues. Ack.

I feel your pain on this one.... I just had that done to me. Although I think my thing was a timing thing with an ex and her being undecided, but maybe i am wrong. I guess if things are meant to be they will work out in the end.

 

[Peaseblossom]

D- Somehow I feel that that "too nice"response was directed toward me. . . So let me react to that first....

"And I know, maybe you think that someone who is "too nice" to you is just a yes man and doesn't see you for who you really are"

I never ever said anything like that and you know that I don't believe that. I like guys that are "too nice." I like 'em a lot. I might even say that I love one... (and the reason I said fell in love just once is because I've always loved you, I loved you before we were dating, I still love you now and I always will- there was no falling in or out- it just is. Kind of like the sky being blue or the weather in Oak Park being beautiful.).' but along with that, I have to agree with She Is Raging (You're very wise, S.I.R., by the way) "And in defense of all the girls saying that there are too many guys out there that are "too nice" etc... too willing, too accomodating, too doting, etc... while these things are very nice ina relationship, sometimes you want to know what he wants to do- what he likes, etc... it's not just about what you want to do etc...".

"Why is it so hard to believe that you are worth more than what your luck in dating has shown you so far?"

You opinion carries a lot of weight with me. The fact that you still say nice things to me at all means more to me than I can tell you. You are one of the major reasons I have any self-confidence at all. I've never been good at taking compliments. you know that, but when it comes to getting your heart broken the bad stuff is easier to believe. When you're left with no answers, even after just a couple of dates, the only reasons you can find are the ones you see when you look at yourself: I'm not pretty enough, I'm not skinny enough, I'm not funny enough, I try to hard..... And when you're the one-date wonder like I am, you have plenty of time to think about that stuff. And to quote joyfulgirl, "but when there are patterns or the beautiful, nice woman or man who 'just never meets anyone'--you gotta look deeper. If it's a pattern, it's probably you. "

Bono's American Wife and Sicy- gee, thanks. I needed those hugs.

All I've really been trying to do is figure out the thought process that gets a guy to be this insensitive attn: disclaimer: I am not talking about every guy. I like guys- a lot. I have no problem against males as a species, just the sub-species that is emotionally ignorant.).

Watch, after all this, he'll probably call tonight (well, a girl can dream can't she).

 

[diamond]

I never have any problems w my sexxies
DB9

 

[joyfulgirl]

When you're left with no answers, even after just a couple of dates, the only reasons you can find are the ones you see when you look at yourself: I'm not pretty enough, I'm not skinny enough, I'm not funny enough, I try to hard..... And when you're the one-date wonder like I am, you have plenty of time to think about that stuff. And to quote joyfulgirl, "but when there are patterns or the beautiful, nice woman or man who 'just never meets anyone'--you gotta look deeper. If it's a pattern, it's probably you. "

Oh, but please be careful there...please don't take what I said in the self-deprecating, superficial way. It's almost never those things (too fat, too skinny, not funny enough)...it's deeper. It's the "deep down inside I don't feel I'm worthy to have a wonderful relationship" stuff or the "after what I saw as a kid growing up I just can't trust relationships." That's the kind of stuff I'm talking about...not, "I'm just stupid and ugly and why would anyone want to date me, yes, it must be me, not him." Okay, I just needed to pound that point home one more time because I really hope you're not going to beat yourself up some more.

 

[Diemen]

Pease, thanks for the response. The too nice comment was in part aimed at you, but more at women in general. It's something I've encountered a lot of .

As far as the too doting, too accomodating, I admit I'm a bit guilty of that, but I think I was also open about what I wanted to do, my likes, etc...(if it wasn't for me you wouldn't have seen U2 in concert! )

Anyway, I guess the thing that bothers me most is that when someone doesn't call or breaks a date, you immediately try to find some fault in yourself to explain why he's doing it. Sometimes things just don't work out. Sometimes the guy's a flake and doesn't want anything more than a few fun dates (asshole thing to do in my book, but still). It really upsets me that you would go so far as to poll me and others to see whether it was your kissing that turned him off. I know it's no boost to your self-confidence to have promising starts fall through, but I wish you wouldn't turn on yourself so harshly when things do go bad. If you're not pretty enough for him, then let him go after the models who have the "classic beauty" looks but lack in brains. If you're not skinny enough for him, then fuck him, let him go after the waif thin barbie doll figures with implants who eat 2 pretzels and feel full (note, not an attack on skinny people, just on some guys' picture of what is pretty). If you're not funny enough for him, well he hasn't heard you go off on the Snuggles commercial.

Who knows, maybe you do try too hard. Maybe you do get too eager when you find that spark that keeps you talking for 5 1/2 hours. I know I would - most people probably would. It's a pretty natural thing to get excited when things seem to be going really well. I wouldn't fault anyone for trying hard when they see something they really want.

I totally agree with She Is Raging. Try and put it out of your mind or even call him/email him and just ask him to be honest. Puts the ball in his court and should teach him a lesson in the process.

One more thing...

I loved you before we were dating, I still love you now and I always will- there was no falling in or out- it just is. Kind of like the sky being blue or the weather in Oak Park being beautiful.

Wow. Another reason why you're the greatest.

Love ya tons.

 

[Diemen]

Oh, but please be careful there...please don't take what I said in the self-deprecating, superficial way. It's almost never those things (too fat, too skinny, not funny enough)...it's deeper. It's the "deep down inside I don't feel I'm worthy to have a wonderful relationship" stuff or the "after what I saw as a kid growing up I just can't trust relationships." That's the kind of stuff I'm talking about...not, "I'm just stupid and ugly and why would anyone want to date me, yes, it must be me, not him." Okay, I just needed to pound that point home one more time because I really hope you're not going to beat yourself up some more.

Thank you thank you thank you for pointing that out joyfulgirl.

 

[Lilly]

can we go to savers soon?

TOO NICE? WTF? See, this is the deal with some women - guys that are too nice don't win!

k...explaination to this.

women want someone who will answer truthfully to questions like the ever joked about "does this make me look fat?". we want someone who will be like "no, i think it makes you look too thin" or "uh...polka dots are just not for you." not "oh sure...maybe."

so i think my point is that we want someone who is assertive with his opinions, not just a yes-man.

zoner, don't worry about being too nice...you aren't. you are a fabulous balance, very objective.

 

[Angel]

I think you are off a bit on this one Angel. I do not think I need to go into further detail here. But there are guys who are the complete opposite of what you described and do not lower themselves to this type of behavior and way thinking.

And I agree, but like I said... I hope to be proved wrong that's all. Of course there are nice guys out there, it's just unfortunate that I really haven't had the pleasure of experiencing one on a romantic level. I am not speaking for the entire male population, just from my own personal experiences. My apologies if I came off male bashing, because that was not my intent. I have an incredible father and awesome brother... I just hope one day i can be as lucky as my mom and sister in law.

*Still searching

 

[Peaseblossom]

I would if I had his phone number. But after discussing this all day, I definately feel a little bit better. I may even allow myself some comfort food tonight.

Thanks y'all. Any other males out there..... please feel free to comment on the mental status of my friend who disappeared...

 

[LarryMullen's POPAngel]

*hides from zoney and all other Interference nice guys

Zoney....I never said I didn't want a nice guy. I just don't want one who is all about "what do YOU want?" "what do you like?", etc. I've run into a few guys like that and it is a total turnoff. Also guys who try too hard to be the knight in shining armour. I would love to meet someone sweet and nice and caring and funny and all those other great things, but for now I think I ought to keep myself on the shelf. Especially because I have possibly the lowest self-esteem ever of anyone I have ever known. It's horrible.

Anyway, I hope you find what you're looking for Pease. Oh yea, and I think I want to date your friend (who posts here).

 

[mikal]

Re: *hides from zoney and all other Interference nice guys

Zoney....I never said I didn't want a nice guy. I just don't want one who is all about "what do YOU want?" "what do you like?", etc. I've run into a few guys like that and it is a total turnoff. Also guys who try too hard to be the knight in shining armour. I would love to meet someone sweet and nice and caring and funny and all those other great things, but for now I think I ought to keep myself on the shelf. Especially because I have possibly the lowest self-esteem ever of anyone I have ever known. It's horrible.

Anyway, I hope you find what you're looking for Pease. Oh yea, and I think I want to date your friend (who posts here).

Ahh! I used to be like that! I used to think that if I told a girl that she was beautiful a million times that all was good.

Then I learned that it's all about your actions and not the words you use.

Hang in there April! You'll luck out someday!

 

[Diemen]

Should this belong in Zoo Confessionals?

Anyway, I hope you find what you're looking for Pease. Oh yea, and I think I want to date your friend (who posts here).

[Joey]How YOU doin?[/Joey]

 

[Stories for Boys]

Re: *hides from zoney and all other Interference nice guys

Zoney....I never said I didn't want a nice guy. I just don't want one who is all about "what do YOU want?" "what do you like?", etc. I've run into a few guys like that and it is a total turnoff. Also guys who try too hard to be the knight in shining armour. I would love to meet someone sweet and nice and caring and funny and all those other great things, but for now I think I ought to keep myself on the shelf. Especially because I have possibly the lowest self-esteem ever of anyone I have ever known. It's horrible.

i'm the same way, april...don't worry, you're not alone on this one...but then i feel guilty about having low self esteem and that makes things worse...

i need a bit of opinion or things will never get done....life is dull without good discussion with more than one point of view...i love getting into a heated debate about things....esp when i have a strong opinion about them......

*hugs* we'll make it!

 

[Peaseblossom]

Re: *hides from zoney and all other Interference nice guys

Anyway, I hope you find what you're looking for Pease. Oh yea, and I think I want to date your friend (who posts here).

Thanks, Dahlin! I'm gonna keep trying. And by the way.... DO IT! DATE DIEMEN! He deserves a good woman. He's the most incredible man in the whole world.... as long as you understand that I'm not going anywhere, you can date him.

 

[Diemen]

Gee, thanks for the go-ahead, Pease...but there's still that pesky little halfway-across-the-country bit. Kinda makes dating a bit tough, dontchya think?

Damn distance...

 

[Peaseblossom]

Shit.

She could move. It could happen. You're worth it.

 

[LarryMullen's POPAngel]

Re: Re: *hides from zoney and all other Interference nice guys

Thanks, Cookie! Boy, I don't even think I realized how much I missed you till you came back!

Thanks, Dahlin! I'm gonna keep trying. And by the way.... DO IT! DATE DIEMEN! He deserves a good woman. He's the most incredible man in the whole world.... as long as you understand that I'm not going anywhere, you can date him.

Woohoo! I've been given the go-ahead! Too bad we're on opposite ends of the United States!! That's another issue of mine. I never meet guys here who I like here, they're always too far away! Blah.

You're too sweet, Diemen.
[Phoebe]Hi, Regina Philange. Nice to meet you![/Phoebe]